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A Horse Named Stranger

UK politics: The tale of an old (Ber)crow who flew down from the cuckoo's nest...

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Just now, Nevarfeather said:

lies, cheating and law-breaking tends to do that sadly,
it wasn't a really strong divide, it was manufactured and still is.
 

You need to get over this delusion and go outside and actually talk to people who voted. It might be helpful.

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I saw a suggestion on Twitter that the UK Parliament and US Congress+Trump should switch places, see if they can solve the other country's problems instead.

Despite the complete lack of knowledge each would have about the political situation and legislative processes they are entering, I'm not sure either would do any worse than what is currently happening.

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8 minutes ago, Fez said:

I saw a suggestion on Twitter that the UK Parliament and US Congress+Trump should switch places, see if they can solve the other country's problems instead.

Despite the complete lack of knowledge each would have about the political situation and legislative processes they are entering, I'm not sure either would do any worse than what is currently happening.

If they didn't have to get elected in their new countries I'm sure they'd do fine. The solution to the problem in the UK's pretty clear, the issue is a lot of MPs are also well aware they'd lose their jobs if they voted to just stay in the EU. A significant part of the problem, at least with the current government shutdown, in the US is that Republican senators are all to aware of how much of their base are pro Trump so they aren't willing to rock the boat despite McConnell surely knowing how stupid it is.

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22 minutes ago, Fez said:

I saw a suggestion on Twitter that the UK Parliament and US Congress+Trump should switch places, see if they can solve the other country's problems instead.

Despite the complete lack of knowledge each would have about the political situation and legislative processes they are entering, I'm not sure either would do any worse than what is currently happening.

Oh stop now. The UK has a decent education system, so I’m assuming they know a bit about our government and the legislative process. OTOH, we just learn to scream, “SOCIALISTS!!!” at all things Europe.

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4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Oh stop now. The UK has a decent education system, so I’m assuming they know a bit about our government and the legislative process. OTOH, we just learn to scream, “SOCIALISTS!!!” at all things Europe.

Looking at the respective education systems to apply how the current political leaders in each country would handle each others' intractable problems is rather baseless.

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36 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

You need to get over this delusion and go outside and actually talk to people who voted. It might be helpful.

i live in a leave town in the midlands, i talk to leavers daily
saying lies, cheating and manipulation created a divide isn't deluded

- it's not deluded to say lies - Leave's Dominic Cummings admitted he wouldn't have won without the £350million lie. That was a whooper. Turkey invading diagrams in leaflets was a lie. Sunlit uplands and easiest deal in human history was a lie. those lies are things people voted on teh basis of

- it's not deluded to say cheating - data stealing and manipulation online by Cambridge Analytica and Aggregate IQ was cheating, it was micro-targeting online invisibly - that's cheating

- it's not deluded to say law-breaking, there is already a ruling on Leave breaking the law, the funding by Arron Banks is still under criminal investigation 

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24 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

If they didn't have to get elected in their new countries I'm sure they'd do fine. The solution to the problem in the UK's pretty clear, the issue is a lot of MPs are also well aware they'd lose their jobs if they voted to just stay in the EU. A significant part of the problem, at least with the current government shutdown, in the US is that Republican senators are all to aware of how much of their base are pro Trump so they aren't willing to rock the boat despite McConnell surely knowing how stupid it is.

In this hypothetical scenario, I think electoral concerns remain in play. Because yes, the central problem both the US and UK face is that there has been too much lying to the public for too long and now politicians are afraid of admitting that it was all a lie.

In the US this is almost entirely on the Republican side, but in the UK it sounds like it's somewhat a cross-cutting issue though more of an issue on the right than left.

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4 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

 

Incidentally, there is an additional stumbling block to Labour becoming the Party of Remain: the geographical layout of Leave and Remain voters. Remain voters are packed, Leave voters are spread-out - Leave won a substantial majority of constituencies, including Labour constituencies. In short, FPP would turn the electoral map into a Labour-created Tory gerrymander.

Jesus Christ on a bike (I love that expression), people are still banging on about this?

That argument would only make sense if that translated into majority of Labour voters in those constituencies. Have you checked Labour members/voters view on Brexit? Hint: They are overwhelmingly against it.

It makes electorally little sense to keep the few Labour Brexiters onboard, if you piss off your remain voters in the process. I'll spare you the point of beating Corbyn and his disciples with their listening more to Labour members routine, while effectively shutting down substantial debates on Brexit for the past two party conferences, because it would embarass the Leadership.

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, Fez said:

In the US this is almost entirely on the Republican side, but in the UK it sounds like it's somewhat a cross-cutting issue though more of an issue on the right than left.

I think it is more that politicians, and in particular those making up recent Tory governments, have lied so much that nobody believes a word they say, even when they are telling the truth. In consequence people believe whatever matches their prejudices, steered by the tabloids, Russian trolls etc. 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

You need to get over this delusion and go outside and actually talk to people who voted. It might be helpful.

Son, we are people who voted.

What you need to get over is the delusion that only the views of Leavers are important in this country.

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51 minutes ago, DMC said:

Looking at the respective education systems to apply how the current political leaders in each country would handle each others' intractable problems is rather baseless.

It was a joke!!! :spank:

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7 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Again I was asking the question because I’ve seen numerous people speak about the technical solutions but it went quite.

Ahum, no you were not asking a question, you were making a statement.

20 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Yes I still don't understand why they aren't pushing the technology point, because those technologies are far from fantasy, in fact are quite simple from what I can see and already exists between Norway and Sweden. AFAIK there doesn't really need to be any physical infrastructure on the border at all. That there already is a border between Ireland and NI and that our two countries are not perfectly aligned on currency, tax and VAT, and which seems to be policed without physical infrastructure suggests it cannot be as hard as is stated. But I don't know why that avenue seems to have been exhausted. 

I've now chcked this post three times over, whether I was being unjust (that I was unkind is out of the question), but I fail to see a single questionmark there. The bolded is a claim, and it's a false one at that.

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6 hours ago, Werthead said:

"Not enough of a majority for a second referendum" is only true right this second, with Labour not formally supporting one (although many Labour MPs would back one in a vote). The SNP, Greens, Lib Dems and Plaid Cymru have all pledged to support a second referendum and six Tory MPs have publicly backed it, with the understanding that there may be another dozen to twenty (and potentially a lot more) who would support a second referendum if no other option presented itself. So the key is Labour swinging behind it. If they do, they could carry it over the rest of the Tories and the DUP.

There's also been a shift in the attitude to Brexit Ref 2 from some Brexiters (notably Farage), who have started saying that if there was one it could be a good thing, as they could win with an increased majority which would provide a mandate for No Deal, so it could gain a lot more traction.

The key part today isn't the no-confidence vote, which May should squeeze through, but what happens when she does. The expectation is that Corbyn would then have to endorse a second referendum as really there's nothing else he can do.

I wonder if the numbers are there for a majority on another referendum given that I expect Labour has a greater number of MPs that favour remain, the SNP and Libs do too, the real question is how many Tory MPs really favour remain or at least another referendum, I’d think it was a great deal more than 6, or I’d hope so anyway!.

Would such a vote be possible without being proposed directly by a party leader?.

Also if we did have another referendum I wonder if we would get a remain win this time?, seeing how badly the Brexit negotiations have been handled must have put some people off leaving.

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2 hours ago, mormont said:

Son, we are people who voted.

What you need to get over is the delusion that only the views of Leavers are important in this country.

Yeah, but don't you understand that remain voters don't count? They, without exception, are clearly out-of-touch ivory tower types, as opposed to the good, honest, salt-of-the-earth Brexit voters. And @Heartofice is an honest-to-god, cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die Remainer. He just really, really, really gets Brexit voters! :rolleyes:

 

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3 hours ago, Fez said:

I saw a suggestion on Twitter that the UK Parliament and US Congress+Trump should switch places, see if they can solve the other country's problems instead.

Wasn't Trump's advice on Brexit to sue the EU?

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9 minutes ago, Ser Reptitious said:

Yeah, but don't you understand that remain voters don't count? They, without exception, are clearly out-of-touch ivory tower types, as opposed to the good, honest, salt-of-the-earth Brexit voters. And @Heartofice is an honest-to-god, cross-your-heart-and-hope-to-die Remainer. He just really, really, really gets Brexit voters! :rolleyes:

 

Sarcasm levels off the chart there.

 To be clear, I am definitely in the reluctant remain voter camp, but quite obviously I am not a remainer. If for no other reason than much of the obtuse arrogance on display. 

Anyway it seems May refuses to take no deal off the table despite Corbyn insisting on that. I read earlier he won’t even be invited to those talks! 

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4 hours ago, ljkeane said:

I've voted Labour in every election I've been able to vote in. I won't be voting Labour next time due to how badly Corbyn handled this whole situation.

I think Labour may struggle to get a majority again until they can regain some of their old dominance in Scotland, and I don't see that happening with their current Brexit policy. Without gains in Scotland they'd need a landslide victory in English seats.

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1 hour ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

I wonder if the numbers are there for a majority on another referendum given that I expect Labour has a greater number of MPs that favour remain, the SNP and Libs do too, the real question is how many Tory MPs really favour remain or at least another referendum, I’d think it was a great deal more than 6, or I’d hope so anyway!.

Would such a vote be possible without being proposed directly by a party leader?.

Also if we did have another referendum I wonder if we would get a remain win this time?, seeing how badly the Brexit negotiations have been handled must have put some people off leaving.

Yes, the numbers are there if Labour are whipped to support a second referendum and they all complied (they'd probably lose 4-6 which could be a problem) and if more than a dozen (might be closer to 20, I really can't be arsed to look it up, but it's in that ballpark) Tories voted to support it.

The problem right now is that it isn't Labour policy, so even if a random MP did try to float it, it would likely fail on the number of tow-the-line and Brexit-constituency Labour MPs who'd vote with the leadership (presumably) against it.

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10 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Wasn't Trump's advice on Brexit to sue the EU?

The fun thing is, it'll be the EU suing the UK if the latter wants to mess with its financial obligations (namely withold the money owed).

Given his business record, I presume his advice then would be file for bankruptcy.

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