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A Horse Named Stranger

UK politics: The tale of an old (Ber)crow who flew down from the cuckoo's nest...

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Two things:

1. Why am I doing another British politics thread title? I suck at puns. So you ended up with an attempted half arsed pun about Bercrow joined the remainers to fight the others.

2.  Now that this whining is out of the way. I thought I'd share some high class whining form Davis. Some highlights

Quote

 

DER SPIEGEL: If all these are scare stories, why did your own department, when you were a secretary of state, draft three different scenarios, one of which they call the "Armageddon" scenario?

Davis: They never called it the "Armageddon" scenario to me, not in a single document I've ever seen.

DER SPIEGEL: But it was a very bleak outlook.

Davis: What we are talking about in this case is a hostile no-deal outcome, with no arrangements for the practical things. People talking about aircraft being grounded. Really? Really? You don't want to go to America ever again? You want to fly around Britain when you're doing it? Oh, come on. That won't happen.

DER SPIEGEL: Hostility could easily come up if Britain, for instance, refuses to pay the exit bill of 40 billion euros.

Davis: Well, exactly, that's the point. It's not likely to happen because it's a symmetrical risk. The risk goes both ways. I don't think the EU wants to lose this money.

DER SPIEGEL: You were "Mr. Brexit." Do you see reason for self-criticism?

Davis: Always. I didn't win the argument, so it's at least in part my fault.

DER SPIEGEL: Was it wise to resign in the middle of the greatest chaos?

Davis: Yes, oh yes. When I realized that the prime minister is about to hand away the control of our own future, our independent nationhood, I couldn't go on. I knew if I stayed a lot of people would have said: David is going along, we can trust David, so we will live with it. That is not what I wanted.

[...]

DER SPIEGEL: Your party is holding the nation hostage over its unresolved struggle over Europe. Where has all the reason and willingness to compromise gone?

Davis: You think it's just the Conservative Party? Where is the willingness to compromise in the European Commission or in Germany? It's regrettable that we have come to this point. Our negotiation strategy was initially to try and get a win-win out of this. The EU was determined for it not to be a win on our side. Indeed, Mrs. Merkel, I think, said in terms Britain cannot be seen to gain from this.

No shit Davey, you can't get a better deal outside the club than inside, that this basic principle has still not penetrated that thick skull of his is remarkable. He calls it win-win other called it (attempted) cherry picking.

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Quote

 

Davis: Yes, oh yes. When I realized that the prime minister is about to hand away the control of our own future, our independent nationhood, I couldn't go on. I knew if I stayed a lot of people would have said: David is going along, we can trust David, so we will live with it

 

Narrator: Not one single person on Earth would have said this. Ever.

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In other news, with parliament in a deadlock, what's next. Apparently it's May asking for an extension from the EU... And I still fail to see how more time will solve this. It does not solve the simple problem, that there is no majority for whatever course in Westminster. No majority for her deal, no majority for a new referendum, and no majority for crashing out.

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On 1/12/2019 at 8:48 AM, A Horse Named Stranger said:

Our negotiation strategy was initially to try and get a win-win out of this. The EU was determined for it not to be a win on our side.

Quote above is from A Horse Named Stranger's post, citing the article in Der Spiegel: is this really the sentiment in the mad-for-brexit parts of Britain? Why haven't these irresponsible rascals like Boris Johnson and his ilk been lynched? With every passing day and political farce it looks more and more like everyone in politics is trying to screw the Britain over for personal electoral gain. Indeed, Your nation is being held hostage over this unresolved struggle - because so much work seems to be put in keeping it unresolvable.

I'm sorry, but the mind boggles. There seems to be such a disconnect between politics and reality.

Edited by Antonius Pius

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3 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

In other news, with parliament in a deadlock, what's next. Apparently it's May asking for an extension from the EU... And I still fail to see how more time will solve this. It does not solve the simple problem, that there is no majority for whatever course in Westminster. No majority for her deal, no majority for a new referendum, and no majority for crashing out.

Oh. FFS.

 

May only strategy for her entire time as PM has been to kcik the can down the road, rather than facing the hard questions.

And now she wants more road to kick the can down. Exactly what does she hope that'll adhesive (beyond more time in #10, despite being unchallengeable for the next 11 months)?

Why would the EU agree to this with no need and no benefit, but lots of downsides? Not that that makes this dream any less realistic than all the other dreams put forward.

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Meanwhile, May is set to lie her ass off later:

 

Of course, May herself voted against the bill setting up the Welsh Assembly, following the referendum. Then stood on a manifesto pledge for, er, another referendum. These things are public record. But she still thinks it's a good idea to stand up and say that everyone accepted the Welsh referendum result. Our PM, folks. Incompetent and untruthful. 

 

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Did anyone watch Brexit: The Uncivil War btw?

- I noticed it got almost overwhelmingly good reviews.. except in the Guardian. Suggests it might be a bit more even handed than I expected. I'm going to check it out tonight I think.

Edited by Heartofice

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Did anyone watch Brexit: The Uncivil War btw?

- I noticed it got almost overwhelmingly good reviews.. except in the Guardian. Suggests it might be a bit more even handed than I expected. I'm going to check it out tonight I think.

Nope. Because it's too soon for this shit. Why couldn't it wait for another year?

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10 hours ago, mormont said:

Meanwhile, May is set to lie her ass off later:

 

Of course, May herself voted against the bill setting up the Welsh Assembly, following the referendum. Then stood on a manifesto pledge for, er, another referendum. These things are public record. But she still thinks it's a good idea to stand up and say that everyone accepted the Welsh referendum result. Our PM, folks. Incompetent and untruthful.

I wonder how many Brexiteers have also argued for abolishing the Scottish Parliament? I suspect a few of them have over the years.

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The Brexiteers want to believe the EU and Merkel are looking to punish the UK, because they are upset at the UK. There might be some truth to that argument. But surely the much more important strategic reason for making the UK exit deal unpleasant is to stop other rats from jumping off the EU ship. Nationalism is sweeping through Europe, so conditions are ripe for several countries to want to follow the UK out of the EU if the UK is seen to do well out of any deal.

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There are a lot of familiar names in the list of Tory MPs who voted to ignore that Welsh Referendum result:

 

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and the others in Part 2 of that list

 

Phil Hammond

Bernard Jenkin

Desmond Swayne

Andrew Lansley

Nigel Evans

Michael Fabricant

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14 hours ago, Isis said:

Nope. Because it's too soon for this shit. Why couldn't it wait for another year?

I highly recommend it. I saw it last night and I thought it was fantastic (odd looking Bojo impression aside). I don't think it matters what side of the fence you come down on, it was a thoroughly insightful look at the leave campaign and there were a number of scenes that truly highlighted the out of touch nature of the Remain campaign.

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I thought Brexit the Uncivil War did a good job of demonstrating how the data stealing and manipulation online played a big role in the referendum, we forget already all about Cambridge Analytica and Aggregate IQ and how much fraud had a part to play in the referendum. I thought the lies were well done too, the part where Boris is trying to explain the figure for Turkey is actually just the poplulation of Turkey - I wonder if that's what it felt like for them, like they'd opened a Pandora's box of lies and couldn't control it. 

I do hope someday there is a Public Inquiry and all law-breaking and criminal investigations into the source of Arron Banks money come to light. It will probably be too late. At least in the UK they have the sense to have a Muelller inquiry. Sadly the UK is not doing the same. 
 

Should be an interesting day today. 
Anyone know what the hell May's Plan B is? Does May even know?

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Immediately, May's Plan B is simply to present Plan A again (with minor amendments) in the hope that this time the 'it's this or nothing' narrative works.

Brexiteers hope that the rejection of Plan A will cause the EU to panic and offer major concessions to avoid No Deal. Since this will almost certainly not happen, May's hoping they will then fall into line for fear of Brexit being delayed or cancelled. 

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1 hour ago, Nevarfeather said:

I thought Brexit the Uncivil War did a good job of demonstrating how the data stealing and manipulation online played a big role in the referendum, we forget already all about Cambridge Analytica and Aggregate IQ and how much fraud had a part to play in the referendum. I thought the lies were well done too, the part where Boris is trying to explain the figure for Turkey is actually just the poplulation of Turkey - I wonder if that's what it felt like for them, like they'd opened a Pandora's box of lies and couldn't control it. 

I do hope someday there is a Public Inquiry and all law-breaking and criminal investigations into the source of Arron Banks money come to light. It will probably be too late. At least in the UK they have the sense to have a Muelller inquiry. Sadly the UK is not doing the same. 

I think we probably viewed it differently then, because I felt that it didn't fall over into conspiracy theory about Russian bots and data stealing. The message was more that the leave campaign clocked onto more advanced methods of targeting potential voters in the same way that Obama had done to great success before.. and Trump afterwards. It showed that there has been a steady drip of anti-EU sentiment running in this country for decades, even the undecideds were described as 'don't like the EU but worry about the effect on my job'. 

It did however highlight the use of core messages that get to an intangible truth that people were feeling about their lives. 'Take back control' whether you like it or not was a far better tagline than the Remains version, which was just as bad as Safe and Secure. 

I think my main takeaway from it was about how the level of debate has become enflamed, and reactionary, and the pandoras box of has been opened, the level of trust in politicians has disappeared, maybe forever. When the Remain side was flailing about trying to correct the lies told by the Leave side, you could see how they had already lost and knew it.

Overall I really enjoyed it. Daniel Hannan impression was spot on too
 

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1 hour ago, Nevarfeather said:

The Daniel Hannan impression was so good to be almost creepy!
He is an odious little liar that man!

The Boris and Gove impressions however were pretty distractingly bad.

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they were weird, but then both Boris and Gove are already caricatures so I appreciate it might be hard
that odd gif of Gove trying to clap like a human and failing always freaks me out

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My take on their representation of IQ Analytica is that they were a dirty little secret; mostly hidden from their own side; which gave Leave a big swing in votes.

They didn't mention that they did so illegally and fraudulently; but anyone who gets their news from actual news sources already knows that what they did was illegal; and this program was not the place to go into that - so they didn't.

They showed the use of the data, and a little about how they used clickbait to do so; but ignored any Russian involvement and any illegality of the methods used.

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