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John Suburbs

About the Trident

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22 hours ago, corbon said:

"Threatening", not 'attacking'. But the Dornish can only be threatening Roberts flank if they have driven back his wing or he had badly mismanaged his deployment and maneouvering, which isn't anywhere indicated (although... Robert credits Ned for winning the battles, so its possible he did mismanage it before becoming personally involved and Ned redirected things while Robert was fighting - we don;t really know much).

Also note that the Corbrays are a fairly senior House, with a famous Valyrian Steel blade,  famous KG (one fought Daemon Bkacfyre for an hour on the Redgrass Field) and a Regent in their past. Lord Corbray has been wounded and his heir retired with him, so things are going badly it seems for the Rebel left, before Lyn Corbray picks up his fathers sword and turns the tide.

Is there a difference between a flank and a wing? I don't see how "Robert's left" could mean anything other than the forces he has deployed to his left. If these forces are being "threatened", then Lewyn is gaining ground but has not achieved superiority, especially since we don't hear of any major rebel commanders being lost. But regardless, immediately after Lewyn fell, his forces, 10,000 men, were cut to pieces by the rebels. So they now own that side of the battle, which can only be bad for Rhaegar, no?

Quote

There are many other men of note, we only hear a few partial stories. 

For example, there were three Darrys killed at the Trident, all older brothers of the Lord who sits during ASoIaF. So there was definitely senior Darry's present, probably the Lord or his Heir, as well as Jonor. Probably his nephews or brothers, I don't think we can tell. But the most senior of them would certainly be strong candidates for local command.
There were also Mootons, Rygers, Brunes, Crabbs and more, all of which have featured elsewhere in the storys or histories.

And yes, the loyalists took considerably more lumps than the rebels. That happens when an army breaks. I don't think you can extrapolate out from a few known figures and generalise over the battlefield.

Again, there is no indication that this happened before Robert and Rhaegar came together. In fact it is indicated otherwise by what little we have.

Yes, many lords were lost on both sides, except that on the royalist side they lost two of their top men, Martell and Darry, while a third was mortally wounded, not to mention all of the other Darrys you sited, whereas none of the top men on the rebel side were killed and only Robert was badly wounded during his tilts with Rhaegar. So from a command perspective as well, it seems like the battle was leaning toward the rebels.

It also seems more logical than not that the royalist commanders would have fallen before Rhaegar, not after the army cut and ran. If they still had commanders in the field, the retreat would have been more orderly or might not have happened at all considering they had a good chance of killing a now badly wounded Robert.

But I will also concede that it is possible the soldiers just took off and left their commanders to fend for themselves.

Quote

1. Robert and Rhaegar came together "as the armies clashed", which indicates, though not definitively, early on in the battle.

2. They fought for quite a while. "circling and clashing, again and again" Bear in mind again, the Corbray KG vs Daemon Blackfyre fight lasting an hour (not that I expect Robert and Rhaegar must have been that long, but its an example).

3. Rhaegar wounded Robert badly enough that he couldn't travel for several days.

4. The royalists were not on the ropes for a start. At least on their right, the rebel left, they appear to have been winning initially.

5. According to Yandel, Darry and Martell died before Rhaegar did. Though not necessarily before he met Robert.

When you say x plus y means z, and infer further claims from z or ask questions based on z, it means you are assuming x and y (to get to z). You just did it again when you assumed that all of Rhaegar's top men were dead or disabled before Robert and Rhaegar even came together.

1. No, this happened at the end of the battle. Once Rhaegar fell, the royals fled the field. Battle over.

2. Not sure of your point here, unless it's to suggest that Lewyn fell only after R&R started mixing it up? Doubtful, the battle had been raging for a while, and I can't imagine why Rhaegar would want to go mano y mano with Robert unless he had to.

3. Not sure of the point here either. Robert was wounded by Rhaegar, but the battle was won.

4. Yes, they were evenly matched at the start. My point is that by the time R&R met, the battle does not look to be a draw; it seems the royalists were already losing.

5. It would be quite the bad streak of luck for both Darry and Martell to drop while their prince is now in danger -- all within the spate of, what, an hour? Less? Talk about forsaking their vows to protect the royal family. I think the safer bet is that Rhaegar saw that all of his top men had fallen and decided he needed a dramatic win in order to keep his army intact. Too bad he failed.

I never said anything plus anything equals anything. I merely asked a question based on what we appear to know. If you contend that all of Rhaegar's top men were still active when he met Robert, I can't refute that, but I would wonder what would cause Rhaegar to make such a stupid decision.

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7 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Rhaegar had forty thousand.  He should have won that battle.  But this is a callback to Ser Weymar Royce leading that ill-fated ranging.  Rhaegar was put in command because of who he was.  How different that battle might have turned out if it had been Randyll Tarly in command.  

Numbers don't win battles. Even quality of the troops doesn't win battles. Ask the French. You have to plan and execute properly to win, and even then it's a crap shoot. The English should have destroyed the Scots at Bannockburn but they lost and lost badly, partly because their strategy, partly because of their morale, and partly because of the soldiers "recognizing" scottish reinforcements that were just camp followers scrambling to get some loot after the English retreated. Whether or not Rhaegar led the royalists well, we won't know until we get an accounting of the battle.

As to Waymar Royce, I've said this in other threads, he was basically right about everything (except riding his destrier). Any deviation from what he did would have kept them alive but more than likely either punished for not performing their mission (with proof) or sent back out to find them.

 

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I think that probably Rheagar's host was mostly made up of Crown Lands conscripts. The Dornish were fighters but The Vale, Riverlands, The North and Stormlands where battle ready and tested. Those Dornish were outnumbered. The best Royalist Forces were laying Seige at Storm's End with Randal Tarly and lord Oaf Tyrell. Connington's better troops were routed at the Battle of The Bells and melted away. Rheagar had more men but Robert and Allies had the bigger Army at the Trident. 

 

Edited by A Ghost of Someone

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On 1/14/2019 at 6:56 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I still don't understand how Robert and Rhaegar could have randomly met on the battlefield...

 

On 1/14/2019 at 2:12 PM, jthurman14 said:

Battles in the middle ages were usually set piece affairs, like described in the text and above. The wings or divisions would have been commanded by liege lords (Barons or Dukes in English peerage) Mostly those related to the king by blood or marriage. Turning command over to a professional soldier (KG) was simply not done. One's right to rule was directly related to ability to lead in the field. Later middle ages and early modern times saw the last of that (Richard III I think last English monarch to die in battle, 1485).

 

 

"To lead" yes.  Not necessarily engage in single combat.  

I don't have the exact quote but Jorah said to Daenerys:  Rhaegar fought valiantly.  Rhaegar fought honorably.  And Rhaegar died.  All that honor meant nothing in the end.  She chose to set the tactics and stayed in her tent after ordering her Unsullied to attack the drunken Second Sons.  That's how to win.  

Edited by Enuma Elish

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On 1/12/2019 at 12:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

Once again, one thread has led me to wonder about something else, so since a lot of you guys seem to have more knowledge of medieval warfare that I do, maybe you can answer a few questions about the Trident.

As I understand it, the medieval battle flag was a crucial piece of equipment in that it allows the soldiers to know where their leaders were amid the chaos of battle and either rally to their side in case they get lost or separated from their unit, or at the very least know that their leader has not fallen. Brienne was to carry Renly's standard during the battle at Storm's End. Edric Storm carried Beric's at the Mummer's Ford, and so on.

So on the Trident, it seems we have Lewyn Martell leading the right flank, and he would naturally have his standard-bearer near him at all times. The center and left flank would, presumably, be led by Selmy and Darry, since they seem to be the knights of the most renown among the loyalists -- although this is not a given since they are KG and at least one of them should have been with Rhaegar, perhaps even carrying his standard.

On the northern side, it appears we have Robert leading the van, and then Hoster Tully's designate (since Hoster himself doesn't seem to be there), Jon Arryn and Ned Stark leading left, right and reserves.

So we are told that by the time Rhaegar and Robert met, the battle had been fought to pretty much of a draw and that once Rhaegar fell the royal army cut and ran. So that would mean Lewyn (and presumably his standard-bearer) fell before R&R faced each other, which would mean the royalist's right flank was thrown into disarray so that they were either being slaughtered in the field or running back to Rhaegar, since that would now be the banner to flock to. Either way, this is a huge loss for the royalists because now their entire right is exposed.

At the same time, we learn that Selmy barely survived the battle, which means at best his standard would remain with him, either stationary on the field or behind the lines if he was pulled back by his own men. Not a huge disaster, but certainly not great since now all of his men must find an alternate flag of some other royalist knight or fall back with their standard.

Meanwhile, Ned Stark and Jon Arryn both appeared none the worse for ware, and if the Tully commander fell during the battle, we've never heard about it. So all three pieces of the northern army should have been intact by the battle's end.

So with all of that, how can it be that the battle was a draw? Maybe once Lewyn and Selmy fell, Rhaegar knew that he was losing, and that's why he chose to face Robert alone?

Honsetly, I don't think Martin has put this much technical thought into that battle.  Robert was pissed off at the Targaryens.  Can you see him calling out to Rhaegar to face him?  I can.  Rhaegar took the bait.  Robert had better luck than Brandon.

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16 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Rhaegar had forty thousand.  He should have won that battle.  But this is a callback to Ser Weymar Royce leading that ill-fated ranging.  Rhaegar was put in command because of who he was.  How different that battle might have turned out if it had been Randyll Tarly in command.  

I'd agree with that.

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12 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

"To lead" yes.  Not necessarily engage in single combat.  

And even if they did engage in combat, it's hard to believe that someone else didn't kill them before they reached each other.

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13 hours ago, Enuma Elish said:

Honsetly, I don't think Martin has put this much technical thought into that battle.  Robert was pissed off at the Targaryens.  Can you see him calling out to Rhaegar to face him?  I can.  Rhaegar took the bait.  Robert had better luck than Brandon.

Well, he gave us enough detail to see that all the top men on the royalist side were either killed of disabled and that their right had been cut to pieces, while the rebels seems to have suffered no major casualties at all. So it's puzzling that we have no details on what had happened to the rebel side to square this with the idea that the battle was still pretty even when R&R met.

My supposition is that Rhaegar did not take the bait exactly, but that defeating Robert was his only viable path to victory at that point because all his lines were collapsing.

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, he gave us enough detail to see that all the top men on the royalist side were either killed of disabled and that their right had been cut to pieces, while the rebels seems to have suffered no major casualties at all. So it's puzzling that we have no details on what had happened to the rebel side to square this with the idea that the battle was still pretty even when R&R met.

My supposition is that Rhaegar did not take the bait exactly, but that defeating Robert was his only viable path to victory at that point because all his lines were collapsing.

That's the most common interpretation I've read, and I agree.

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I would assume Robert and possibly Rhaegar as well were trying to find each other like Alexander tries to find Darius in his battles to kill him and claim Persian Empire. Robert wanted to find Rhaegar for personal reasons while Rhaegar would think he can't die because of the prophecy and he might as well take out their leader. I would assume once they found each other (both probably were surrounded by their banners so it wasn't hard to find) and both armies would make space for them to duel so basically people in the centre would see Rhaegar die and royalist center would collapse whole battle would be lost.

But soldiers could hardly get lost in the battle since battle was two big lines fighting not some mess where lines and completely gone and there is meters of mixed soldiers (what you usually see in Hollywood). Also most of soldiers would usually have no idea what is happening on rest of the battlefield or would be misinformed. If your commander was fighting in a frontline, his banned falling wouldn't be a big deal. But usually commanders wouldn't be in front line. Only commanders really knew what was happening on the rest of the battlefield and not always as well. 

I think it was more common for an army to start running and their leader dying after that than him dying and his army routing as a result. As historically most soldiers would be killed after the battle was decided and one side lost formation and would be easy target to hunt down. So I think Robert was going to win regardless. Vale is supposed to have best knights and most heavily armoured  and well trained, while Dornish would probably be armoured more poorly as an average soldier in both armies because they came from hot lands were heavy armour wouldn't be that practical (could be wrong about this). Riverlanders would be most used to the terrain while Northern,  Stormlander, Crownlander and Reach armies wouldn't have any big disadvantages. Than there is argument great houses of Westeros were preparing for an rebellion though once rebellion started they weren't. 

Edited by Tygett Lannister

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On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

Is there a difference between a flank and a wing? I don't see how "Robert's left" could mean anything other than the forces he has deployed to his left. If these forces are being "threatened", then Lewyn is gaining ground but has not achieved superiority, especially since we don't hear of any major rebel commanders being lost. But regardless, immediately after Lewyn fell, his forces, 10,000 men, were cut to pieces by the rebels. So they now own that side of the battle, which can only be bad for Rhaegar, no?

Yes. A wing is a division, 'battle' or group of forces placed on one side (flank) of the battlefield.
A flank is one side of a force/unit.
The whole point of a battle line is that all the smaller subunits (even down to the individual) each have flanks but by being in a line together they cover each other's flanks (except the poor guys on the very ends who each have one flank uncovered).

Robert was leading the centre. The centre has a flank. The wing should cover that flank, but if it is badly maneuvered, or driven back (and note the data point combination of Robert's flank being threatened and senior leaders of his left wing being wounded and leaving the battle), it will uncover that flank and allow the opposite wing to 'threaten' the flank of the centre.

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

1. No, this happened at the end of the battle. Once Rhaegar fell, the royals fled the field. Battle over.

Came together is a beginning, not an ending (of their personal fight). See 2.

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

2. Not sure of your point here, unless it's to suggest that Lewyn fell only after R&R started mixing it up? Doubtful, the battle had been raging for a while, and I can't imagine why Rhaegar would want to go mano y mano with Robert unless he had to.

Rhaegar and Robert's fight took a significant amount of time. The 'came together' near the start of the battle it seems - "as the armies clashed". they fought for some time - "circling and clashing again and again" (and note the 1 hr personal duel between Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield).

Its quite obvious why Rhaegar would want to go mano-y-mano with Robert. Killing Robert could do nearly as much to the Rebel army as killing Rhaegar did to the Targaryen army. Rhaegar was a highly skilled warrior and in fact wounded Robert first and was therefore winning. Robert killed him, but it could have gone either way.
 

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

3. Not sure of the point here either. Robert was wounded by Rhaegar, but the battle was won.

Rhaegar was winning.
They fought for quite a long time. Rhaegar was winning. It seemed like a good move then, especially as his army started well but was taking bad casualties. Then Robert killed him. 

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

4. Yes, they were evenly matched at the start. My point is that by the time R&R met, the battle does not look to be a draw; it seems the royalists were already losing.

And my point is that the data appears to say otherwise. But you don't seem to pay attention to the quotes.

The apparent timeline goes like this.
1. The two armies clash together
2. Robert and Rhaegar come together and start fighting ('coming together' "as the armies clashed")
3. The Dornish are threatening Robert's flank and have wounded Corbray senior who retires from the field with his heir - the Royalists are doing well.
4. Lyn Corbray picks up his father's sword and leads a charge that routs the Dornish and kills Lewyn Martell.
5. A wounded Robert gets in the crucial blow that kills Rhaegar.
6. The royalist army runs away.
Now, some time between 1 and 5, Darry is also killed and Selmy wounded (many times). But we can't know if its 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, or 4.5 for either event(s).

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

5. It would be quite the bad streak of luck for both Darry and Martell to drop while their prince is now in danger -- all within the spate of, what, an hour? Less? Talk about forsaking their vows to protect the royal family. I think the safer bet is that Rhaegar saw that all of his top men had fallen and decided he needed a dramatic win in order to keep his army intact. Too bad he failed.

Well, thats not entirely impossible. I'm just pointing out that the data we have, says that they came together early in the battle and their personal duel was quite sustained. And thats also possible to fit with a relatively short, sharp battle. Once the armies clash, a battle might be quite short, especially when its ended early by the death of a commander and several other senior figures. And its not necessarily that surprising that the Royalists lost key figures quicly. They may have had more mean, but they were mostly lesser levies against battle-hardened rebels. That puts more weight on the fewer key fighters in the Royalist army, and gives them less support as well.
I tend to go with the data if it can fit, rather than deciding off my own bat that I think the battle went a different way and dismissing the data.
 

On 1/16/2019 at 10:56 AM, John Suburbs said:

I never said anything plus anything equals anything. I merely asked a question based on what we appear to know. If you contend that all of Rhaegar's top men were still active when he met Robert, I can't refute that, but I would wonder what would cause Rhaegar to make such a stupid decision.

Your "what we appear to know" is not stuff we know. Its your assumptions, your A+B=Cs.

And your assessment of 'stupid' doesn't seem to fit with the facts or what anyone in world says.   

Your problems seem to stem from making lots of assumptions, connections and assessments that don't fit with the data, then complaining about things not making sense in the story. You could try reassessing your understanding and thinking about ways a different understanding might fit the data, rather than complaining that the data doesn't fit your current understanding and a bunch o things don't make sense to you.

23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Well, he gave us enough detail to see that all the top men on the royalist side were either killed of disabled and that their right had been cut to pieces, while the rebels seems to have suffered no major casualties at all. So it's puzzling that we have no details on what had happened to the rebel side to square this with the idea that the battle was still pretty even when R&R met.

Well, if you pay attention, its tells us that Robert and Rhaegar came together quite early in the battle - when it was fairly even still. Things went south for the Royalists while they fought, then Rhaegar was killed, then the Royalist army crumbled. It all exactly fits together with the data. Just not the assumption that they didn't come together until the end.

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1 hour ago, corbon said:

Yes. A wing is a division, 'battle' or group of forces placed on one side (flank) of the battlefield.
A flank is one side of a force/unit.
The whole point of a battle line is that all the smaller subunits (even down to the individual) each have flanks but by being in a line together they cover each other's flanks (except the poor guys on the very ends who each have one flank uncovered).

Robert was leading the centre. The centre has a flank. The wing should cover that flank, but if it is badly maneuvered, or driven back (and note the data point combination of Robert's flank being threatened and senior leaders of his left wing being wounded and leaving the battle), it will uncover that flank and allow the opposite wing to 'threaten' the flank of the centre.

Came together is a beginning, not an ending (of their personal fight). See 2.

Rhaegar and Robert's fight took a significant amount of time. The 'came together' near the start of the battle it seems - "as the armies clashed". they fought for some time - "circling and clashing again and again" (and note the 1 hr personal duel between Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield).

Its quite obvious why Rhaegar would want to go mano-y-mano with Robert. Killing Robert could do nearly as much to the Rebel army as killing Rhaegar did to the Targaryen army. Rhaegar was a highly skilled warrior and in fact wounded Robert first and was therefore winning. Robert killed him, but it could have gone either way.
 

Rhaegar was winning.
They fought for quite a long time. Rhaegar was winning. It seemed like a good move then, especially as his army started well but was taking bad casualties. Then Robert killed him. 

And my point is that the data appears to say otherwise. But you don't seem to pay attention to the quotes.

The apparent timeline goes like this.
1. The two armies clash together
2. Robert and Rhaegar come together and start fighting ('coming together' "as the armies clashed")
3. The Dornish are threatening Robert's flank and have wounded Corbray senior who retires from the field with his heir - the Royalists are doing well.
4. Lyn Corbray picks up his father's sword and leads a charge that routs the Dornish and kills Lewyn Martell.
5. A wounded Robert gets in the crucial blow that kills Rhaegar.
6. The royalist army runs away.
Now, some time between 1 and 5, Darry is also killed and Selmy wounded (many times). But we can't know if its 1.5, 2.5, 3.5, or 4.5 for either event(s).

Well, thats not entirely impossible. I'm just pointing out that the data we have, says that they came together early in the battle and their personal duel was quite sustained. And thats also possible to fit with a relatively short, sharp battle. Once the armies clash, a battle might be quite short, especially when its ended early by the death of a commander and several other senior figures. And its not necessarily that surprising that the Royalists lost key figures quicly. They may have had more mean, but they were mostly lesser levies against battle-hardened rebels. That puts more weight on the fewer key fighters in the Royalist army, and gives them less support as well.
I tend to go with the data if it can fit, rather than deciding off my own bat that I think the battle went a different way and dismissing the data.
 

Your "what we appear to know" is not stuff we know. Its your assumptions, your A+B=Cs.

And your assessment of 'stupid' doesn't seem to fit with the facts or what anyone in world says.   

Your problems seem to stem from making lots of assumptions, connections and assessments that don't fit with the data, then complaining about things not making sense in the story. You could try reassessing your understanding and thinking about ways a different understanding might fit the data, rather than complaining that the data doesn't fit your current understanding and a bunch o things don't make sense to you.

Well, if you pay attention, its tells us that Robert and Rhaegar came together quite early in the battle - when it was fairly even still. Things went south for the Royalists while they fought, then Rhaegar was killed, then the Royalist army crumbled. It all exactly fits together with the data. Just not the assumption that they didn't come together until the end.

Sorry, but I'll go back to the World Book:

Quote

The battle at the ford was fierce, and many lives were lost in the fray. Ser Jonothor Darry was cut down in the midst of the conflict, as was Prince Lewyn of Dorne. But the most important death was yet to come.

So before you thrown around any more trash about paying attention to the quotes, you might want to start paying attention yourself. Darry and Martell clearly died before Rhaegar.

Quote

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both.

The battle is already well underway before they met, and Lewyn was already dead, meaning the royalist right was already collapsing, regardless of what wings or flanks were winning before. Robert and Rhaegar clashed many times, but it's a stretch to say they met at the beginning of the battle and were fighting the whole time Lewyn was winning and then losing. Nor is it likely that Robert would have met Rhaegar while both Darry and Selmy were still ahorse. He would have to cut through Rhaegar's sworn shields before he can get to Rhaegar himself.

So sorry, but there is nothing "apparent" about your sequence. Head canon only works until it starts to conflict with the facts.

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 12:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

So with all of that, how can it be that the battle was a draw? Maybe once Lewyn and Selmy fell, Rhaegar knew that he was losing, and that's why he chose to face Robert alone?

If only the world can get on without testosterone!  :D  How much better it would be.  Those boys would find a way to fight the other.  It's what boys do.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but I'll go back to the World Book:

So before you thrown around any more trash about paying attention to the quotes, you might want to start paying attention yourself. Darry and Martell clearly died before Rhaegar.

Yes, and I never said otherwise. And my timeline attempt to explain what we are told to you clearly has them both dying before Rhaegar, we're just not sure exactly when.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The battle is already well underway before they met,

No. The quote says they met "as the armies clashed", which indicates at or near the start. 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

and Lewyn was already dead,

No, he died before Rhaegar died, not before Rhaegar and Robert met. Its possible he died before Rhaegar and Robert met, or its possible he died during their duel. However, we have indication that Robert and Rhaegar met early in the battle and that Lewyn Martell didn't die too quickly, since the Dornish forces had time to wound Lord Corbray, have Corbray and his heir retire from the battlefield, and threaten Robert's flank before Martell was killed. 
Therefore it seems very much more likely, according to the textual clues we have, that Martell died during Robert and Rhaegar's fight, as probably did Darry and Selmy (wounded multiple times rather than dying).

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Robert and Rhaegar clashed many times, but it's a stretch to say they met at the beginning of the battle and were fighting the whole time Lewyn was winning and then losing.

Its not a stretch, its what the text indicates.
1. that they met early in the battle, and
2. that their personal fight took some time.

And its not unreasonable either - as we are shown by the famous hour long duel between a Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield between Targaryen loyalist and rebel armies.

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Nor is it likely that Robert would have met Rhaegar while both Darry and Selmy were still ahorse. He would have to cut through Rhaegar's sworn shields before he can get to Rhaegar himself.

First, they are not Rhaegar's sworn shields. They are KG under his command. They would not necessarily have been fighting directly with him - as you yourself argued, they might have been commanders of other wings like Martell was. I didn't say they weren't, just that we should assume they were, and that the reasons you gave for your assumptions were not good ones.

Secondly, if Rhaegar wanted to honourably fight Robert, any KG around him would only keep others out of the fight rather than take on Robert first. 

Quote

 Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died."

 

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So sorry, but there is nothing "apparent" about your sequence. Head canon only works until it starts to conflict with the facts.

 

Its not my head canon at all. Its an attempt to follow the textual data we have as closely as possible. There are many ways the battle may have gone. All I'm doing is pointing out how so many of your assumptions run contrary to the textual data we have, and thats probably a large part of the reason why things don't seem to work for you. 

Its a rather ironic last sentence though.

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5 hours ago, corbon said:

Its quite obvious why Rhaegar would want to go mano-y-mano with Robert. Killing Robert could do nearly as much to the Rebel army as killing Rhaegar did to the Targaryen army. Rhaegar was a highly skilled warrior and in fact wounded Robert first and was therefore winning. Robert killed him, but it could have gone either way.

Rhaegar was winning.
They fought for quite a long time. Rhaegar was winning. It seemed like a good move then, especially as his army started well but was taking bad casualties. Then Robert killed him.

Where is the evidence that Robert took a wound first or that Rhaegar was winning? All we know is that at the end of their clash Rhaegar was dead and Robert wounded, but we don't know who struck the first blow or how the advantage did or didn't shift over the course of their duel.

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19 hours ago, Aline de Gavrillac said:

If only the world can get on without testosterone!  :D  How much better it would be.  Those boys would find a way to fight the other.  It's what boys do.

Lol, true enough, but if you look at history, every single female head of state did not hesitate to use warfare to further their own national, of even narrow political or personal, interests: Cleopatra, Isabella, Elizabeth, Catherine, Victoria . . .

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17 hours ago, corbon said:

Yes, and I never said otherwise. And my timeline attempt to explain what we are told to you clearly has them both dying before Rhaegar, we're just not sure exactly when.

No. The quote says they met "as the armies clashed", which indicates at or near the start. 

No, he died before Rhaegar died, not before Rhaegar and Robert met. Its possible he died before Rhaegar and Robert met, or its possible he died during their duel. However, we have indication that Robert and Rhaegar met early in the battle and that Lewyn Martell didn't die too quickly, since the Dornish forces had time to wound Lord Corbray, have Corbray and his heir retire from the battlefield, and threaten Robert's flank before Martell was killed. 
Therefore it seems very much more likely, according to the textual clues we have, that Martell died during Robert and Rhaegar's fight, as probably did Darry and Selmy (wounded multiple times rather than dying).

Its not a stretch, its what the text indicates.
1. that they met early in the battle, and
2. that their personal fight took some time.

And its not unreasonable either - as we are shown by the famous hour long duel between a Corbray KG and Daemon Blackfyre on another battlefield between Targaryen loyalist and rebel armies.

First, they are not Rhaegar's sworn shields. They are KG under his command. They would not necessarily have been fighting directly with him - as you yourself argued, they might have been commanders of other wings like Martell was. I didn't say they weren't, just that we should assume they were, and that the reasons you gave for your assumptions were not good ones.

Secondly, if Rhaegar wanted to honourably fight Robert, any KG around him would only keep others out of the fight rather than take on Robert first. 

 

Its not my head canon at all. Its an attempt to follow the textual data we have as closely as possible. There are many ways the battle may have gone. All I'm doing is pointing out how so many of your assumptions run contrary to the textual data we have, and thats probably a large part of the reason why things don't seem to work for you. 

Its a rather ironic last sentence though.

Again, the WB:

Quote

The battle screamed about Lord Robert and Prince Rhaegar both, and by the will of the gods, of by chance -- or perhaps by design -- the met amidst the shallows of the ford.

So the battle is already screaming, it is already underway. And if you are referring to the quote I think you are (Ned 1, GoT), you have it wrong:

Quote

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them. . . . The waters of the Trident ran red all around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until the last crushing blow . . .

So not only do we have "while the battle crashed", not clashed (and not "as soon as" the battle crashed but "while" the battle crashed), we also have the word "clash" in the progressive tense only a few sentences later. So even if there is some quote out there where the armies clashed, it by no means indicates that this was their very first contact.

But let's take a closer view of your proposal. You have Robert and Rhaegar meeting at the beginning of the battle, where they "circled and clashed, again and again." Two men on horseback, with mace and sword, circling around each other. How many clashes do you think qualifies as "again and again"? A dozen? Two dozen? Let's say they did this 50 times. Now, how long do you give between each clash? How about 1 minute? They clash, ride away for 30 seconds, turn, and ride back again. Even still, we have this scene unfolding in less than an hour. So you are contending that the battle began, probably at dawn, and within that first hour:

-Lewyn has pressed his advantage to Robert's left, only to die and Corbray rallies his side to slice up the loyalist right. And this after already destroying Robert's other right. (Even here, I think you have it wrong. Robert is in command of the entire army, so his right is the whole rightward division of that army, not the right flank of his center);

-the numerous other lords and knights on both sides have died;

-Jason Mallister takes out three loyalist bannermen;

-Darry is cut down;

-Selmy kills multiple foes and then is unhorsed and mortally wounded;

And sorry, but the whole idea that Rhaegar would leap into the battle at the very beginning is a non-starter. Rhaegar has zero battle experience. He has never led an army, never planned strategy nor tactics, never even killed a man, not even those pesky gnats in the Kingswood. He is a complete novice, a tourney knight. Meanwhile, he has experienced fighters who have done all of these things, including the slayer of Maelys the Monstrous and the man who single-handedly fought is way out of a dungeon to rescue his king. So it is simply inconceivable that Rhaegar would be among the first to take the field, or that his men would even allow this knowing that if Rhaegar dies their cause is lost because no one wants to fight for the Mad King.

Plus the fact that the battle actually did end when Rhaegar fell, at the end of a contest that you equate to an hour-long tilt somewhere else, would literally make the Trident the shortest major battle in Westerosi history. I seriously doubt even the Field of Fire was shorter than this.

So I say no. Using a little critical thinking, we can see that the text clearly shows that R&R did not meet at the beginning of the battle. They met when it was well underway: after all three Kingsguard were removed and after Rhaegar realized that his lines were collapsing and he had no choice but to ride out and face Robert alone.

 

 

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