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John Suburbs

About the Trident

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32 minutes ago, corbon said:

No, thats an abbreviated version from GRRM and does not contradict my proposed timeline.

Robert is leading from the front. So his personal combat starts very early. "Eventually" he fights Rhaegar, which might be 5 minutes after fighting 3 other guys, it might be half an hour after fighting 2, or fighting 20. It just means that his final battle was with Rhaegar. It doesn't say how long that battle took or how much other fighting Robert did before he fought Rhaegar.
Both Lewyn and Barristan are killed or taken out before Rhaegar dies, leaving him in sole command.

Notice too that this is a very much abbreviated description. We know that Rhaegar gave Robert a wound, and it was serious enough for Robert to be unable to travel to KL immediately and send Ned ahead. Yet GRRM gives us basically just one line, the end summary, in your quote. There's more to their fight than that.

That abbreviated clearly states that Robert and Rhaegar didn't meet at the beginning of the battle, you can attempt circumventing it but nowhere I have seen stated that they met at the beginning of the battle, the quote actually showed the contrary.

The quote seems to follow the events of the Trident chronologically and from what we can see Robert and Rhaegar met after Barristan was grievously wounded, taking him from Rhaegar’s side. The prince was already alone when Robert found him on the battlefield and the battle had already been going out for awhile then.

I don't see why you talk about the fight in itself, I think it outwarldy acknowledged that Robert crushing Rhaegar's armour is what cemented the rebels win.

Edited by Kal-L

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52 minutes ago, Kal-L said:

That abbreviated clearly states that Robert and Rhaegar didn't meet at the beginning of the battle, you can attempt circumventing it but nowhere I have seen stated that they met at the beginning of the battle, the quote actually showed the contrary.

Try reading it again.
Near the start, not at the start. Robert led from the front, so he is amongst the first to fight. And elsewhere we are told that they met as the armies crashed together which indicates very early, and could even be taken to read as right at the start.

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The quote seems to follow the events of the Trident chronologically and from what we can see Robert and Rhaegar met after Barristan was grievously wounded, taking him from Rhaegar’s side. The prince was already alone when Robert found him on the battlefield and the battle had already been going out for awhile then.

Edit: Ah, the taking him from Rhaegar's side.
Sure, but this doesn't mean Rhaegar wasn't already fighting Robert. If Rhaegar has chosen to single combat Rhaegar, for important symbolic reasons, then Barristan will not fight Robert, but will fight any other Rebel(s) coming to help Robert. And be repeatedly wounded in the process of keeping them out of the single combat.

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I don't see why you talk about the fight in itself,

Because you treat it as a momentary thing. XY and Z happen, then Robert fights Rhaegar and kills him, and the battle is over.

But we know, or we are told, that it was not momentary. They circled and clashed, again and again. Rhaegar wounded Robert, which both Ned and Yandel tell us (one directly to Robert, the other indirectly, so we know it must be true or Robert would dispute it). Yet in his abbreviated blog post description, GRRM doesn't mention that. They met as the armies clashed yet the battle raged for some significant time and ended when their duel ended. The Dornish were winning (threatening Roberts flank, which means driving back his wing), wounded Lord Corbray, he and his heir left the field, then the younger son Lyn picked up his fathers sword and killed Lewyn Martel, driving back the Dornish, so we know that the battle raged for long enough for these things to happen.

We also know that on another battlefield a Corbrey KG fought a Dragonlord prince for an hour. Personal duels on the battlefield can take a significant amount of time, during which other things happen. Interesting that it was a Corbray KG, perhaps a clue towards the Trident, since Lyn Corbray was prominent there even if not directly fighting the dragon prince. Or perhaps just a coincidence.

Its like you've found one piece of data, interpreted it in only a certain way that supports your argument, then ignored all of the other data.

I don't really understand why you are arguing to be honest. The original post I answered complained of a bunch of inconsistencies. All I did was point out how these inconsistencies could actually be consistent. It doesn't have to be 'my way' I'm just showing how all the data points we have can fit together in a single coherent narrative. If you are going to make arguments or complaints based on a different narrative that doesn't fit all the data points, the fault is with your narrative, not the data.

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I think it outwarldy acknowledged that Robert crushing Rhaegar's armour is what cemented the rebels win.

Yep, no doubt.

Edited by corbon

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:04 AM, John Suburbs said:

So with all of that, how can it be that the battle was a draw? Maybe once Lewyn and Selmy fell, Rhaegar knew that he was losing, and that's why he chose to face Robert alone?

Or Selmy could have been cut down after the rest of the army was routed 

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16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Or Selmy could have been cut down after the rest of the army was routed 

the blog report shows Selmy was taken out before Rhaegar I think.

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 During the battle Barristan the Bold cut down many men, but was eventually himself grievously wounded, taking him from Rhaegar’s side. Lewyn Martell was later killed by Ser Lyn Corbray, leaving only Rhaegar left in command.

 

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11 hours ago, corbon said:

Try reading it again.
Near the start, not at the start. Robert led from the front, so he is amongst the first to fight. And elsewhere we are told that they met as the armies crashed together which indicates very early, and could even be taken to read as right at the start.

No, nothing about that Rhaegar is implied here. The only thing we can affirm is that Robert was among the first to fight at the battle, the rest is you trying to enforce your headcanon due to a quote which doesn't say anything.

11 hours ago, corbon said:

Edit: Ah, the taking him from Rhaegar's side.
Sure, but this doesn't mean Rhaegar wasn't already fighting Robert. If Rhaegar has chosen to single combat Rhaegar, for important symbolic reasons, then Barristan will not fight Robert, but will fight any other Rebel(s) coming to help Robert. And be repeatedly wounded in the process of keeping them out of the single combat.

Except you still have nothing to affirm Rhaegar met at the beginning of the battle, the battle had begun for awhile when they met.

You can attempt arguing the duel lasted hours but no one ever mentioned this, it was never compared to the duel opposing Daemon Blackfyre and Gwayne Corbray.

13 hours ago, corbon said:

I don't really understand why you are arguing to be honest.

I'm arguing against your affirmation that Robert and Rhaegar's fight happened at the beginning of the battle. So bring a quote from the book if you have it.

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5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

No, nothing about that Rhaegar is implied here. The only thing we can affirm is that Robert was among the first to fight at the battle, the rest is you trying to enforce your headcanon due to a quote which doesn't say anything.

Look, I'm not enforcing anything, and its not headcannon. I'm explaining why if you make assumptions that don't fit the data we have, you'll end up with analysis that seems contradictory.

5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

Except you still have nothing to affirm Rhaegar met at the beginning of the battle, the battle had begun for awhile when they met.

I've never said they met right at the start (well, possibly I got lazy some place somewhere and it looks like that), just it seems likely and is certainly possible that it was sometime near the start, countering the initial argument that it was only right at the end after the Targaryens were already losing.
You can go right back to my first post in this thread here where I said

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We know that Rhaegar dies after Darry and Martell (well, at least we take that as truth, though it could be poetic licence on Yandel's part). That does not mean that he and Rhaegar didn't fight until the Targaryen army was already losing.
In fact, what we are told is that Robert and Rhaegar came together as the armies clashed (ie near the beginning of the battle). And that they fought for some time. Rhaegar wounded Robert (badly enough for Robert to be unable to travel to KL immediately after the battle) before Robert killed him.

 

5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

You can attempt arguing the duel lasted hours but no one ever mentioned this, it was never compared to the duel opposing Daemon Blackfyre and Gwayne Corbray.

I've not said it lasted hours. I've said it lasted a significant amount of time, possibly long enough for Martell to die, fortunes reverse on the Dornish wing , Darry to die and Selmy to be badly wounded. Maybe 10 min, maybe 20 min, maybe an hour, whatever. I'm not insisting on any particular case, I'm saying you shouldn't assume a short sharp desperate fight after the battle is already starting to come apart, and pointed to clues in the text that support that.

5 hours ago, Kal-L said:

I'm arguing against your affirmation that Robert and Rhaegar's fight happened at the beginning of the battle. So bring a quote from the book if you have it.

Not right at the beginning. Not an affirmation. Possibly near the beginning and possibly lasting a significant amount of time - maybe 10min, maybe 30 min, maybe an hour. 
The Gwayne Corbray/Daemon Blackfyre duel is an example of long fights during a battle. It is not directly referenced, but it is interestingly connected, given its a Corbray and a Dragon Prince, two of the most significant figures at the Trident. 

The quote is

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They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. 

Now, I've gotten this mixed up with the other part, where it says clashed. So I've been slightly misusing this, for which I apologise.
But still, it indicates the battle is still raging, not a desperate last gamble, which is what I argued against. Nothing there indicates it happens only at the end, and nothing prevents it from being quite early on as I suggested. We still know from other quotes that their fight was prolonged, that Rhaegar wounded Robert, which indicates he was winning for a while at least. And the Dany vision and Jorah and Ned quotes support that Rhaegar was winning, then dismounted to fight Robert on foot before Robert killed him.

 

 

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22 hours ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

To me the fight between Robert and Rhaegar is a classic example of Champion Warfare.

It was clear that both sides had fought long and hard - could the two leaders have decided to duke it out and prevent more needless losses. It was the ultimate showdown. Winner takes all.

It does stray somewhat from Medieval warfare - more of a connection with Antiquity, and Central Asian & Middle Eastern warfare.

Also, somewhere in the thread someone said commanders were always the upper crust. Not always true. There are many examples of men who rose through the ranks to become battle commanders that were not of noble birth. John Chandos, John Fastolf, Robert Knolles and Thomas Erpingham, I'm sure there are more, but it did happen.

Sure, but it still seems to me that by the time they met, Rhaegar's army had lost its right flank, along with its commander, Llewyn, and had also lost the only other two commanders of note on the field, Selmy and Darry. Meanwhile, all of Roberts commanders of note survived.

So far from being a contest between two champions whose armies had fought to a draw, as depicted in the story, it seems far more likely that Rhaegar rode out to face Robert only after it was apparent that he was losing. He threw a Hail Mary, and almost scored.

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6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, but it still seems to me that by the time they met, Rhaegar's army had lost its right flank, along with its commander, Llewyn, and had also lost the only other two commanders of note on the field, Selmy and Darry. Meanwhile, all of Roberts commanders of note survived.

So far from being a contest between two champions whose armies had fought to a draw, as depicted in the story, it seems far more likely that Rhaegar rode out to face Robert only after it was apparent that he was losing. He threw a Hail Mary, and almost scored.

Yeah the champion things only really works if the armies were evenly matched and fighting a draw.

 

Edited by Legitimate_Bastard

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20 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Or Selmy could have been cut down after the rest of the army was routed 

It's possible, but if Selmy was unharmed by the time Rhaegar died, he would have led the retreat, and we are told that the remnants of the royal army were leaderless as they straggled their way back to King's Landing. Also, Selmy was wounded by "arrow, spear and sword" which would seem rather unlikely if he was leading the retreat. I seriously doubt that Selmy was fool enough to continue fighting all alone after his prince and his army were gone.

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17 hours ago, corbon said:

We still know from other quotes that their fight was prolonged, that Rhaegar wounded Robert, which indicates he was winning for a while at least.

We don't know this, there is nothing to say that the fight prolonged long after Rhaegar wounded Robert, you keep insisting on the fact Rhaegar wounded Robert and so was winning their duel but if like you're implying Rhaegar was the best warrior, he wouldn't have lost against a wounded Robert.

All we know is that during the fight Robert took a wound, nothing about the length is inferred, aside of the fact they clashed several times.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

And the Dany vision

The Dany visions showed Rhaegar on his knees if I remember it well. Did it show Robert on foot ? If not, nothing prevent Rhaegar from being smashed from his horse trying to get up and fall.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

Ned quotes

What quote are you talking about ? I never seen Ned implying that Rhaegar had dismounted to fight Robert. He merely talked about a wound.

17 hours ago, corbon said:

Jorah and Ned quotes support that Rhaegar was winning, then dismounted to fight Robert on foot before Robert killed him.

I heard about the theory build on Jorah's statement which I don't subscribe, I know Rhaegar's fan have a hard time imagine him being bested fair and square but I don't buy it, not in a battle which would certainly cost the loser the end of his family. If Robert was dismounted which isn't impossible considering Rhaegar's horseman skills, there wouldn't be anything suprising in him making the prince fall from his horse while at foot.

18 hours ago, corbon said:

But still, it indicates the battle is still raging, not a desperate last gamble, which is what I argued against.

Not saying it was a desperate gamble, but that quote doesn't discard anything. The battle would still be raging even though it was a desperate act from the royalist. All it confirmed is that their fight happened while the battle had already going on for awhile.

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