How powerful are the Royces?

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

It's called building a case.

But we are on the same page, pretty much,  in regards to the split. That is not the difference of opinion.  The armored lance equaling heavy horse is what we disagree on, the other points are superfluous. 

Sorry to be terse but recently another user constantly did just that, regurgitated points I'd not argued against and presented it like I had. It was a very frustrating discussion. 

 

Quote

I would ask, though, what is the point of giving the average per House, if it is meaningless in arriving at the answer we are looking for? And yet you seem to find great significance in pointing out the 412, when it is a non-issue that both of us agree with based on the most rudimentary of math. Like saying the sky is blue.

It's just a number. There was no greater point than dividing the amount of cavalry (or heavy horse if  you are correct) by 8 to give an indication of how much the Manderlys would have. 

You brought up 1,500 as a minimum, I countered that the minimum could well be half of that. 

Quote

Anyway, your overarching point seems to be that Manderly, by quoting is heavy horse, is referring to a much smaller subset of his "knights and knight equivalents", which would in your view then weaken the argument that he has more men or even more overall cavalry than House Bolton.

Pretty much, but not quite. 

My main point was your assumption that armoured horse means heavy horse, it does not. 

 

Quote

I must say, that is a rather narrow reading of the text, when, given Martin's varied use of terms like knights, armored lances, heavy horses etc, it is far more likely that Manderly is simply referring to his knight equivalents, of which the Freys for example had 1000.

Dude, I've been pretty clear, my basis in this thread is what we have seen in the books. I have repeatedly clarified that there is two books left and plenty of time for GRRM to clarify and prove your assumptions 100% correct but as of now I'm going by the books and you accusing me of being a 'narrow reader' because I'm not jumping to the same conclusions as you is not going to change that. 

 

Quote

Anyway, from an overarching point of view, you seem to not enjoy speculation, even based on good evidence. Which makes participating in a forum like this somewhat pointless.

I like speculation but you have not provided good evidence.  The person I replied to was making a definitive statement and I simply pointed out that thus far in the books his statement was contradicted by textual evidence. 

Repeatedly I have pointed out that the series is not over and more information can come, that I'm making no argument for one being stronger than the other overall. 

Oh and cheers for policing the forum and explaining that its pointless for me to engage in it. 

 

[dsjj251]

On 1/17/2019 at 7:58 AM, Bernie Mac said:

Ramsay was captured, presumed killed, the fighting carried on in Hornwood.

Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them." 

The text is explicit about that. 

By the start of ADWD Ramsay is controlling Hornwood men while Manderly was housing Hornwood refugees fleeing from the Boltons, they would not be in White Harbor had Manderly won and resolved the conflict.

 

Manderlys fighting Bolton men means exactly that, fighting, not having the upper hand as you claimed. 

And the reason those people were fleeing Hornwood is because Roose was now Warden and his son was now proclaimed Lord of the Hornwood. It has nothing to do with who won(which by all accounts seems to have been Manderly)

 

You are conflating Ramsey killing Donella and Roose becoming Warden with a battle that happened between those events. 

[Bernie Mac]

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

Manderlys fighting Bolton men means exactly that, fighting, not having the upper hand as you claimed. 

I said by the end the Boltons have the upper hand

The Ryswells and the Dustins had surprised the ironmen on the Fever River and put their longships to the torch. That was worse. And now the Bastard of Bolton was riding south with Hother Umber to join them for an attack on Moat Cailin. "The Whoresbane his own self," claimed a riverman who'd just brought a load of hides and timber down the White Knife, "with three hundred spearmen and a hundred archers. Some Hornwood men have joined them, and Cerwyns too."

Ramsay is actively commanding Hornwood men, Wyman is not. That implies a certain level of command over the land, not an overall victory but the upper hand.

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

And the reason those people were fleeing Hornwood is because Roose was now Warden and his son was now proclaimed Lord of the Hornwood. It has nothing to do with who won(which by all accounts seems to have been Manderly)

No they fled because their homeland was a battlefield.

You claimed "they lost" , this is demonstrably false given Ramsay is commanding Hornwood troops before his father even reaches Moat Cailin.

Ramsay had been running loose long before Roose was made Warden

"Them as have no other place to live. Smallfolk from up the White Knife, most o' them. Hornwood's people too. With that Bastard o' Bolton running loose, they all want to be inside the walls. I don't know what his lordship means to do with all o' them. Most turned up with no more'n the rags on their backs."

Can you provide evidence that they only fled once Roose became Warden? 

1 hour ago, dsjj251 said:

 

You are conflating Ramsey killing Donella and Roose becoming Warden with a battle that happened between those events. 

Nope, I'm really not. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

I don’t think the Manderley-Bolton conflict in the Hornwood lands tell us anything about their comparative strengths, other than the fact that both had men to spare to send to the Hornwood forests.

We don’t know what the comparative commitment levels were, or how the conflict unfolded.

From what I recall Ramsay kidnapped her while on the road and became the Lord of Hornwood by forcibly marrying her. Not by winning any war.

Sounds like Manderly was the one who had control of the physical conflict by siezing Hornwood castle. But we don’t have enough info to know for sure.

And by the time of Dance, Manderley is at least superficially subservient to the Boltons, due to the Iron Throne making the Boltons Wardens of the North. Hence his lack of further open opposition to them.

[dsjj251]

7 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don’t think the Manderley-Bolton conflict in the Hornwood lands tell us anything about their comparative strengths, other than the fact that both had men to spare to send to the Hornwood forests.

We don’t know what the comparative commitment levels were, or how the conflict unfolded.

From what I recall Ramsay kidnapped her while on the road and became the Lord of Hornwood by forcibly marrying her. Not by winning any war.

Sounds like Manderly was the one who had control of the physical conflict by siezing Hornwood castle. But we don’t have enough info to know for sure.

And by the time of Dance, Manderley is at least superficially subservient to the Boltons, due to the Iron Throne making the Boltons Wardens of the North. Hence his lack of further open opposition to them.

Exactly. 

 

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

I said by the end the Boltons have the upper hand

The Ryswells and the Dustins had surprised the ironmen on the Fever River and put their longships to the torch. That was worse. And now the Bastard of Bolton was riding south with Hother Umber to join them for an attack on Moat Cailin. "The Whoresbane his own self," claimed a riverman who'd just brought a load of hides and timber down the White Knife, "with three hundred spearmen and a hundred archers. Some Hornwood men have joined them, and Cerwyns too."

Ramsay is actively commanding Hornwood men, Wyman is not. That implies a certain level of command over the land, not an overall victory but the upper hand.

No they fled because their homeland was a battlefield.

You claimed "they lost" , this is demonstrably false given Ramsay is commanding Hornwood troops before his father even reaches Moat Cailin.

Ramsay had been running loose long before Roose was made Warden

"Them as have no other place to live. Smallfolk from up the White Knife, most o' them. Hornwood's people too. With that Bastard o' Bolton running loose, they all want to be inside the walls. I don't know what his lordship means to do with all o' them. Most turned up with no more'n the rags on their backs."

Can you provide evidence that they only fled once Roose became Warden? 

Nope, I'm really not. 

Your quote about Ramsey commanding Hornwood men is from Dance, His father is Warden at that point. How are you not understanding this ?

 

literally 1 book back, Ramsey is thought to be dead or captured, and Manderly controls the castle. You are only talking about the book ends, and not the center. 

 

As for proof, thats simple.  your quote is from Davos 2 of Dance with Dragons.  Ramsey is already legitimized at that point and Roose known by all as Warden( Reek 1), Manderly has already pledged allegiance to Tommen , Freys have already returned Wendell's bones.

Tokybook has the audio book. After listening to it, not 3 sentences after where you end your quote, Roose is called Warden and it is said that Lord Wyman best answer his liege lord when called to send men to fight the Iron Born. 
 

[Bernie Mac]

10 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I don’t think the Manderley-Bolton conflict in the Hornwood lands tell us anything about their comparative strengths, other than the fact that both had men to spare to send to the Hornwood forests.

It's not conclusive, I've repeated myself countless times now in this thread by pointing this out, but of course it does offer information on the subject. 

The Manderlys and Boltons have contributed military force three times in the series

• To Robb 
• Fighting over Hornwood
• Sending men against/for Theon at Winterfell

Now in the first and third the Boltons sent a much larger force than the Manderly's while the stalemate in the Hornwood lands suggests an equal force. 

The series is not over, plenty of pages for GRRM to add more information but based on what we have seen thus far the Boltons are not weaker than the Manderlys. 

Quote

We don’t know what the comparative commitment levels were, or how the conflict unfolded.

Nope we don't, but if the Boltons are sending more men to Hornwood, more men with Robb and more men to Theon than the Manderly's the argument that they are much weaker  does not really hold up based on the available tangible evidence.

Quote

From what I recall Ramsay kidnapped her while on the road and became the Lord of Hornwood by forcibly marrying her. Not by winning any war.

Yeah I never outright victory, always presented it as an ongoing conflict with no clear winner. 

 Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them." 

By the start of ADWD we hear of Hornwood men under Ramsay's command, so the claim that the Bolton's lost this war is not only contradicted by Rodrik's account but how things stand before Roose comes home. 

I've maintained there was no outright winner, not according to the books at least. 

 

Quote

Sounds like Manderly was the one who had control of the physical conflict by siezing Hornwood castle. But we don’t have enough info to know for sure.

There are multiple Hornwood castles as Lady Hornwood was locked away in another. 

Rodrik only goes to Hornwood after Manderly's taken the castle, which shows there is no clear winner at that early stage (or even at all, it is still mostly vague). 

Quote

And by the time of Dance, Manderley is at least superficially subservient to the Boltons, due to the Iron Throne making the Boltons Wardens of the North. Hence his lack of further open opposition to them.

Well yes and no. I'd bet Wyman withdrew his forces as soon as he heard of his son's death and Wyman went into overdrive making the fleet and planning revenge. 

Like the Lords of the Vale, I think the Northmen are happy to ignore whoever the Crown makes Warden if they wanted to. 

 

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Your quote about Ramsey commanding Hornwood men is from Dance,

Yes. When did they start following him?

I don't know and nor do you as Ramsay was not seen in the series since he took Winterfell.

What we do know is that even before Roose reentered the North

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

 

His father is Warden at that point. How are you not understanding this ?

And? Why is Roose worried about being killed by the Crannogmen when he's Warden. It's just a title. 

 

Are you under the impression that Joffrey could have named Lancel  Warden in the first book and had the Northmen obey him? 

4 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

literally 1 book back, Ramsey is thought to be dead or captured, and Manderly controls the castle. You are only talking about the book ends, and not the center. 

No, I'm not. 

Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them." 

This quote is after Rodrick has returned, after Ramsay is thought to be dead. As Rodrick makes clear, the war waged on without Ramsay. 

 

 

[dsjj251]

7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

There are multiple Hornwood castles as Lady Hornwood was locked away in another. 

Rodrik only goes to Hornwood after Manderly's taken the castle, which shows there is no clear winner at that early stage (or even at all, it is still mostly vague). 

Lot to unpack here. 

Only one castle is ever mentioned. Again, I think you are conflating the separate chapters which mention multiple actions, but they are all talking about the same castle. 

 

Further more, there still being fighting does not mean no one has the upperhand. thats like claiming the riverlords werent losing to Tywin/Jamie because they were "still fighting".

 

Quote

 

 

Yes. When did they start following him?

I don't know and nor do you as Ramsay was not seen in the series since he took Winterfell.

What we do know is that even before Roose reentered the North

And? Why is Roose worried about being killed by the Crannogmen when he's Warden. It's just a title. 

Are you under the impression that Joffrey could have named Lancel  Warden in the first book and had the Northmen obey him?

We dont know the exact moment he starts following him, but it does happen. That isnt in dispute. And while Warden is indeed "just a title", the Manderlys respect it(at least in public) . And when Roose is named so, they follow his commands.

Quote

 

No, I'm not. 

Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them." 

This quote is after Rodrick has returned, after Ramsay is thought to be dead. As Rodrick makes clear, the war waged on without Ramsay. 

Ugh. 

Your above quote is from Clash of Kings I believe. Roose is not Warden at that time, he has no authority over Wyman or any of the other Northern Lords for that matter at that point. 

The war raged on because even with Ramsey dead, his bastard lands would still belong to his House.

[Bernie Mac]

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Only one castle is ever mentioned.

No, two are mentioned. 

 "I could ask Ser Rodrik when he returns." The old knight was off east, trying to set to rights the trouble there. Roose Bolton's bastard had started it by seizing Lady Hornwood as she returned from the harvest feast, marrying her that very night even though he was young enough to be her son. Then Lord Manderly had taken her castle. To protect the Hornwood holdings from the Boltons, he had written - A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

Rodrik then leaves to try and deal with the situation, but it's clear that the castle taken by the Manderlys is not the one Lady Hornwood is held in. 

Ser Rodrik's men had caught him on Hornwood land doing something horrible (Bran wasn't quite sure what, but it seemed to be something you did without your clothes) and shot him down with arrows as he tried to ride away. They came too late for poor Lady Hornwood, though. After their wedding, the Bastard had locked her in a tower and neglected to feed her. Bran had heard men saying that when Ser Rodrik had smashed down the door he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off. -  A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Not sure why this is controversial, many of Lords who can amass around a 1,000 men will have multiple castles/holdfasts in their lands.

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Again, I think you are conflating the separate chapters which mention multiple actions, but they are all talking about the same castle. 

No, the quotes are pretty clear. Lady Hornwood was not thought to be dead in Bran's fourth chapter, yet Manderlys taking the castle was known. Similarly  It would not be Rodrick finding the corpse but the Manderly's, had she been in the same castle.

Lastly;

 But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard's crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

 

the fighting was ongoing even after Rodrick returned. 

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Further more, there still being fighting does not mean no one has the upperhand. thats like claiming the riverlords werent losing to Tywin/Jamie because they were "still fighting".

You claimed the Boltons lost, the ongoing fighting does not really back that up, does it? 

 

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

And while Warden is indeed "just a title", the Manderlys respect it(at least in public) . And when Roose is named so, they follow his commands.

We are referring to Hornwood men following Ramsay's lead, not Wyman.

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Ugh. 

Smart.

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Your above quote is from Clash of Kings I believe. Roose is not Warden at that time, he has no authority over Wyman or any of the other Northern Lords for that matter at that point. 

You seem to have ignored my point. 

Had Joffrey named Lancel the Northern Warden in ACOK would Wyman have obeyed?

12 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

The war raged on because even with Ramsey dead, his bastard lands would still belong to his House.

Exactly, the war waged on. 

 

My reply to you was pointing out you were mistaken when you claimed they lost. 

[dsjj251]

26 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

No, two are mentioned. 

 "I could ask Ser Rodrik when he returns." The old knight was off east, trying to set to rights the trouble there. Roose Bolton's bastard had started it by seizing Lady Hornwood as she returned from the harvest feast, marrying her that very night even though he was young enough to be her son. Then Lord Manderly had taken her castle. To protect the Hornwood holdings from the Boltons, he had written - A Clash of Kings - Bran IV

Rodrik then leaves to try and deal with the situation, but it's clear that the castle taken by the Manderlys is not the one Lady Hornwood is held in. 

Ser Rodrik's men had caught him on Hornwood land doing something horrible (Bran wasn't quite sure what, but it seemed to be something you did without your clothes) and shot him down with arrows as he tried to ride away. They came too late for poor Lady Hornwood, though. After their wedding, the Bastard had locked her in a tower and neglected to feed her. Bran had heard men saying that when Ser Rodrik had smashed down the door he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off. -  A Clash of Kings - Bran V

Not sure why this is controversial, many of Lords who can amass around a 1,000 men will have multiple castles/holdfasts in their lands.

No, the quotes are pretty clear. Lady Hornwood was not thought to be dead in Bran's fourth chapter, yet Manderlys taking the castle was known. Similarly  It would not be Rodrick finding the corpse but the Manderly's, had she been in the same castle.

Lastly;

 But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard's crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

 

the fighting was ongoing even after Rodrick returned. 

You claimed the Boltons lost, the ongoing fighting does not really back that up, does it? 

 

We are referring to Hornwood men following Ramsay's lead, not Wyman.

Smart.

You seem to have ignored my point. 

Had Joffrey named Lancel the Northern Warden in ACOK would Wyman have obeyed?

Exactly, the war waged on. 

 

My reply to you was pointing out you were mistaken when you claimed they lost. 

I'm on my phone and it will take forever to do individual quotes so bare with me 

 

1. Your quote only mentions Ramsey capturing Lady Hornwood, and her being found in a tower. Not a second castle . Castles and towers aren't the same thing in the context of Ice and Fire. Only one castle is ever mentioned and it is referred to as Hornwood Castle . And it is indeed held by Lord Manderly at the time.

 

2. As with my examples in the river lands, Roose/Ramsey's people continuing to fight means nothing . 

 

3. Hornwood or Manderly, it seems everyone follows their liege Lord . Bolton has the backing of King Tommen and the Lannister forces . That was my point; again your own quote actually ends on that line , but you only quoted half the paragraph from Davos II. 

 

4. Your point wasn't really igored, I just genuinely didn't understand what you were trying to say. It's obvious most of the North hates Lannisters , but Roose isn't one and helped kill many of them and they still follow him, so the answer is we don't know, but if they follow Roose, it doesn't seem to far out the way for them to follow Lancel. 

 

Is that what you were looking for ?

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

Just now, dsjj251 said:

1. Your quote only mentions Ramsey capturing Lady Hornwood, and her being found in a tower. Not a second castle . Castles and towers aren't the same thing in the context of Ice and Fire.

I think you are being needlessly nitpicky, but I'll bite. 

• Your original point was the Boltons lost
• I pointed out the war was going on
• Your evidence that they lost is because Manderly took the castle
• I pointed out that the war went on because not only was the fighting going on but other property was held by the Boltons

Towers are usually connected to Castles, but if you want to quibble about it then I'll happily concede that it may not have been a castle. It does not change my point at all

 

Just now, dsjj251 said:

Only one castle is ever mentioned and it is referred to as Hornwood Castle . And it is indeed held by Lord Manderly at the time.

And other Hornwood lands are held by the Boltons. 

Hornwood citizens are actively fleeing to White Harbour due to no House being in control of the Hornwood lands.

 

Just now, dsjj251 said:

 

2. As with my examples in the river lands, Roose/Ramsey's people continuing to fight means nothing . 

It means there was no victor, something I have stated in 6 posts now in this topic. Do you finally concede you were wrong about the Boltons losing in Hornwood? 

Just now, dsjj251 said:

3. Hornwood or Manderly, it seems everyone follows their liege Lord 

There are frequent examples of this not being the case.Joffrey was Robb's liege lord, Robb  was Roose's, Hoster was Walder's. 

Jaime was the Warden of the East, they didn't follow him.

 

Just now, dsjj251 said:

 

4. Your point wasn't really igored, I just genuinely didn't understand what you were trying to say. It's obvious most of the North hates Lannisters , but Roose isn't one and helped kill many of them and they still follow him, so the answer is we don't know, but if they follow Roose, it doesn't seem to far out the way for them to follow Lancel. 

The North, like the Vale, can ignore appointments the Crown makes. Your point that the only reason Hornwood men were obeying Ramsay was due to his, not yet returned father, being made Warden rings false.

On 1/19/2019 at 8:33 AM, dsjj251 said:

It has nothing to do with who won(which by all accounts seems to have been Manderly)

 

Which accounts? 

 

[dsjj251]

16 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I think you are being needlessly nitpicky, but I'll bite. 

• Your original point was the Boltons lost
• I pointed out the war was going on
• Your evidence that they lost is because Manderly took the castle
• I pointed out that the war went on because not only was the fighting going on but other property was held by the Boltons

Towers are usually connected to Castles, but if you want to quibble about it then I'll happily concede that it may not have been a castle. It does not change my point at all

 

And other Hornwood lands are held by the Boltons. 

Hornwood citizens are actively fleeing to White Harbour due to no House being in control of the Hornwood lands.

 

It means there was no victor, something I have stated in 6 posts now in this topic. Do you finally concede you were wrong about the Boltons losing in Hornwood? 

There are frequent examples of this not being the case.Joffrey was Robb's liege lord, Robb  was Roose's, Hoster was Walder's. 

Jaime was the Warden of the East, they didn't follow him.

 

The North, like the Vale, can ignore appointments the Crown makes. Your point that the only reason Hornwood men were obeying Ramsay was due to his, not yet returned father, being made Warden rings false.

Which accounts? 

 

1. My point never changed. The Bolton's lost. Ramsey doesn't hold that tower mentioned, he fled remember. And even if he did still hold it, I refer you back to my Riverlands argument which you keep ignoring . Continuing to fight means nothing if you are being slaughtered. 

 

2. When Hornwood people are fleeing to White Harbor and Hornwood men are fighting under Ramsey , it is because Roose has been named Warden and Ramsey legitimized , all of that is in the other half of the Davos II paragraph  you quoted earlier from Dance .  It's like you are either forgetting context , or purposefully leaving it out. Your quote from Clash of Kings with the original kidnapping and fighting  is 2 and a half  books back and even there it only mentions Ramsey locking her in a tower.  It doesn't say which one or on who's lands it is in. 

3. The Boltons lost . it's that simple, just like the Riverlord's lost. One does not need a declaration of surrender to be defined as having lost . 

 

4. I'm not arguing that the people can't ignore an appointment , I'm arguing this based on the way Roose was received ( which he maybe over thrown in the next book).Even Baelish is followed after meeting with the Lord Declarant . You can debate all you want about what " could" happen, but you asked me what I thought , and Roose is a traitor and they are following him now, so..... 

5. Roose doesn't have to be in the North to exert force. Clearly they are following his commands from South of the neck already, so why do you keep saying " he isnt in the North yet" as if that matters. Again in the very chapter you quoted , it talks about people answering to both Roose and Ramsey . 

 

 

[Bernie Mac]

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

1. My point never changed. The Bolton's lost.

Except they didn't, not according to Rodrick. 

The fighting is still ongoing even after he returned. 

If anyone did win, it would be the guy who is now known as the Lord of Hornwood. 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Ramsey doesn't hold that tower mentioned, he fled remember.

And yet Bolton men still fight on. 

 Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

That does not sound like anyone was victorious. 

 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

And even if he did still hold it, I refer you back to my Riverlands argument which you keep ignoring

Your are making two different arguments. 

Further more, there still being fighting does not mean no one has the upperhand. thats like claiming the riverlords werent losing to Tywin/Jamie because they were "still fighting".

 

Lost and losing are two different states, I ignored your point because you claimed the Boltons had lost, they quite clearly had not. 

 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

. Continuing to fight means nothing if you are being slaughtered. 

Citation for this slaughter? 

Just how many soldiers do the Boltons have? How many were slaughtered in the Hornwood lands by the Manderly and Stark forces? 

Despite this slaughter they were still able to send double/triple the amount of men to Winterfell than the Manderly's. That is impressive. 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

2. When Hornwood people are fleeing to White Harbor and Hornwood men are fighting under Ramsey , it is because Roose has been named Warden and Ramsey legitimized ,

Citation. 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

3. The Boltons lost . it's that simple, just like the Riverlord's lost. One does not need a declaration of surrender to be defined as having lost . 

The Riverlords lost when they surrendered and stopped fighting. 

2 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

4. I'm not arguing that the people can't ignore an appointment ,

You claimed it was the only reason they were following him. Citation please. 

 

[dsjj251]

24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Except they didn't, not according to Rodrick. 

The fighting is still ongoing even after he returned. 

If anyone did win, it would be the guy who is now known as the Lord of Hornwood. 

And yet Bolton men still fight on. 

 Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

That does not sound like anyone was victorious. 

 

Your are making two different arguments. 

Further more, there still being fighting does not mean no one has the upperhand. thats like claiming the riverlords werent losing to Tywin/Jamie because they were "still fighting".

 

Lost and losing are two different states, I ignored your point because you claimed the Boltons had lost, they quite clearly had not. 

 

Citation for this slaughter? 

Just how many soldiers do the Boltons have? How many were slaughtered in the Hornwood lands by the Manderly and Stark forces? 

Despite this slaughter they were still able to send double/triple the amount of men to Winterfell than the Manderly's. That is impressive. 

Citation. 

The Riverlords lost when they surrendered and stopped fighting. 

You claimed it was the only reason they were following him. Citation please. 

 

1. Nope . Same argument , you are just playing coy. "Still fighting " means nothing . 

Manderly had control of the castle and it's lands . Does  Rodrik not say that ? 

 

2. Manderly gave up control when Roose was named Warden, Making Bolton his liege Lord . Manderly followed commands 

 

3. If you want to say they were losing instead of lost, that's fine. 

4.All your arguments about troops assume the Manderlys don't have more men. And that they sent everyone they had to winterfell. 

 

5. Citation - Davos II ADWD. The rest of that page that you seem to pretend doesn't exist lol.

[Bernie Mac]

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

1. Nope . Same argument , you are just playing coy. "Still fighting " means nothing . 

It means they had not lost, like you claimed they had. 

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Manderly had control of the castle and it's lands

The lands? Where is that claimed? 

Why are there so many refugee's i  White Harbor if Manderly has control of the lands. 

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Does  Rodrik not say that ? 

Nope, he says nothing about Manderly controlling the Hornwood lands

, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

That is not control, even with Stark assistance he could not remove the Boltons.

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

2. Manderly gave up control when Roose was named Warden,

Citation? 

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

3. If you want to say they were losing instead of lost, that's fine. 

Citation that they were losing? 

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

4.All your arguments about troops assume the Manderlys don't have more men. And that they sent everyone they had to winterfell. 

Nope, I've never assumed that. I believe there is still over a 1,000 Manderly soldiers to come.

3 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

5. Citation - Davos II ADWD. The rest of that page that you seem to pretend doesn't exist lol.

Quote it then.

[dsjj251]

18 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It means they had not lost, like you claimed they had. 

The lands? Where is that claimed? 

Why are there so many refugee's i  White Harbor if Manderly has control of the lands. 

Nope, he says nothing about Manderly controlling the Hornwood lands

, but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

That is not control, even with Stark assistance he could not remove the Boltons.

Citation? 

Citation that they were losing? 

Nope, I've never assumed that. I believe there is still over a 1,000 Manderly soldiers to come.

Quote it then.

Rodrik says he took the castle to protect it and it's lands . So he took the lands by taking the castle . I believe that is Bran 2 in a flash of Kings , not 100% on that one . 

 

Again in Davos 2 , it says they are fleeing the bastard of Bolton and not only that, it says Wyman best answer his new liege Lord by sending troops. You clearly read this passage since your previous quote only stops 2 sentences away from that line. 

[Bernie Mac]

6 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

Rodrik says he took the castle to protect it and it's lands .

You claimed he controlled the lands, Rodrick says no such thing. 

6 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

So he took the lands by taking the castle .

No, he took the castle by taking the castle. 

Did Theon take the North when he captured Winterfell? Is that your argument? 

6 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

I believe that is Bran 2 in a flash of Kings , not 100% on that one . 

There is a Bran 2 in four of the books. 

6 minutes ago, dsjj251 said:

 

Again in Davos 2 , it says they are fleeing the bastard of Bolton and not only that, it says Wyman best answer his new liege Lord by sending troops. You clearly read this passage since your previous quote only stops 2 sentences away from that line. 

Where does it say the reason the Hornwood men were following Ramsay because Roose was the Warden. Stop deflecting and provide the quote. 

[dsjj251]

8 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You claimed he controlled the lands, Rodrick says no such thing. 

No, he took the castle by taking the castle. 

Did Theon take the North when he captured Winterfell? Is that your argument? 

There is a Bran 2 in four of the books. 

Where does it say the reason the Hornwood men were following Ramsay because Roose was the Warden. Stop deflecting and provide the quote. 

Dude, you are trolling at this point. 

[Free Northman Reborn]

Seriously. Manderly takes the castle to protect it from the Bastard of Bolton. “Ramsay” is then captured and executed by Rodrik for his crimes. I highly doubt anyone was around to continue leading the Hornwood war against Manderly while “Reek” was in Winterfell’s dungeons. Manderly had therefore achieved his objective. The Hornwood lands were secure and the Bastard had according to all public knowledge been defeated, captured and executed.

The next time we get information on the conflict is in Dance, after Roose has been declared Warden of the North. And we are then specifically told that the Iron Throne demands that Wyman swear allegiance to Roose and “give up any claims to Hornwood”.

That is a perfectly logical reason for Manderly to have withdrawn his forces from Hornwood and effectively hand it over to Ramsay.

[Bernie Mac]

5 hours ago, dsjj251 said:

Dude, you are trolling at this point. 

Sure. If you don't want to answer my points, then don't.

 

2 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Seriously. Manderly takes the castle to protect it from the Bastard of Bolton. “Ramsay” is then captured and executed by Rodrik for his crimes. I highly doubt anyone was around to continue leading the Hornwood war against Manderly while “Reek” was in Winterfell’s dungeons.

"but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

Rodrick is not under that impression. If the war stopped that early why is White harbor full of refugees, with no Bolton forces at war with Manderly they have no reason not to return.

Quote

Manderly had therefore achieved his objective. The Hornwood lands were secure and the Bastard had according to all public knowledge been defeated, captured and executed.

But the men, at least some, remained. "but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests"  there would be no fighting in the meantime if that was the case. 

Ramsay's dead, Hornwood castle secure and yet on Rodrick's return with the captured 'Reek' he complains of the meantime. 

Is Rodrick lying? Does GRRM not know what meantime means? 

Quote

The next time we get information on the conflict is in Dance, after Roose has been declared Warden of the North. And we are then specifically told that the Iron Throne demands that Wyman swear allegiance to Roose and “give up any claims to Hornwood”.

How does that contradict my point? 

Rodrick hopes Roose will do the same

"Roose Bolton may not agree. Not with land at issue." Ser Rodrik looked unhappy. "Would that I could take this serving man's head off as well, he's as bad as his master. But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard's crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim,"

There was no outright victor. 

Quote

That is a perfectly logical reason for Manderly to have withdrawn his forces from Hornwood and effectively hand it over to Ramsay.

Sure, but there is no evidence that is the case, is there? That the Boltons lost and the Manderly's won.

 

[dsjj251]

6 hours ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Seriously. Manderly takes the castle to protect it from the Bastard of Bolton. “Ramsay” is then captured and executed by Rodrik for his crimes. I highly doubt anyone was around to continue leading the Hornwood war against Manderly while “Reek” was in Winterfell’s dungeons. Manderly had therefore achieved his objective. The Hornwood lands were secure and the Bastard had according to all public knowledge been defeated, captured and executed.

The next time we get information on the conflict is in Dance, after Roose has been declared Warden of the North. And we are then specifically told that the Iron Throne demands that Wyman swear allegiance to Roose and “give up any claims to Hornwood”.

That is a perfectly logical reason for Manderly to have withdrawn his forces from Hornwood and effectively hand it over to Ramsay.

He is being obtuse man, he needs the book to say the exact words " I withdrew my troops because Roose is Warden and Ramsey is his son" or it doesnt count. 

Which is funny because he doesnt question why manderly ends up sending men in other capacities after Roose is Warden, its just the Hornwood war he questions. He may genuinely just be bored and argumentative.