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How powerful are the Royces?

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. If you don't want to answer my points, then don't.

 

"but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

Rodrick is not under that impression. If the war stopped that early why is White harbor full of refugees, with no Bolton forces at war with Manderly they have no reason not to return.

But the men, at least some, remained. "but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests"  there would be no fighting in the meantime if that was the case. 

Ramsay's dead, Hornwood castle secure and yet on Rodrick's return with the captured 'Reek' he complains of the meantime. 

Is Rodrick lying? Does GRRM not know what meantime means? 

How does that contradict my point? 

Rodrick hopes Roose will do the same

"Roose Bolton may not agree. Not with land at issue." Ser Rodrik looked unhappy. "Would that I could take this serving man's head off as well, he's as bad as his master. But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard's crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim,"

There was no outright victor. 

Sure, but there is no evidence that is the case, is there? That the Boltons lost and the Manderly's won.

 

the very website you are on says that was the reason. 

 

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Following the betrayal of House Stark by the Boltons and Freys at the Red Wedding, the Iron Throne legitimizes Ramsay and names his father, Lord Roose Bolton, Warden of the North.[10] Ramsay presents himself from this point onwards as Lord of the Hornwood and heir to the Dreadfort.[11][12][13][14]

Because Wyman Manderly's son and heir, Ser Wylis, was captured at the Trident, Wyman agrees to a deal with the Lannisters. In exchange for Wyman executing the imprisoned Lord Davos Seaworth, the Hand of the King and envoy of Stannis Baratheon, as well as Wyman withdrawing from the Hornwood lands and castles and submitting to Roose, Wylis will be released from Maidenpool.[15][16][17][18] Sometime after this agreement is made the Manderlys withdraw from Hornwood territory, allowing for the Boltons to take control of the region.

Whilst some Hornwoods submit to Ramsay and attend his wedding to "Arya Stark",[14] other Hornwood survivors of the Bolton betrayal at Winterfell join Stannis following his victorious fight by Deepwood Motte.[19]

 

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sure. If you don't want to answer my points, then don't.

 

"but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests, and I lack the strength to stop them."

Rodrick is not under that impression. If the war stopped that early why is White harbor full of refugees, with no Bolton forces at war with Manderly they have no reason not to return.

But the men, at least some, remained. "but meantime we have Manderly knights and Dreadfort men killing one another in Hornwood forests"  there would be no fighting in the meantime if that was the case. 

Ramsay's dead, Hornwood castle secure and yet on Rodrick's return with the captured 'Reek' he complains of the meantime. 

Is Rodrick lying? Does GRRM not know what meantime means? 

How does that contradict my point? 

Rodrick hopes Roose will do the same

"Roose Bolton may not agree. Not with land at issue." Ser Rodrik looked unhappy. "Would that I could take this serving man's head off as well, he's as bad as his master. But I fear I must keep him alive until Robb returns from his wars. He is the only witness to the worst of the Bastard's crimes. Perhaps when Lord Bolton hears his tale, he will abandon his claim,"

There was no outright victor. 

Sure, but there is no evidence that is the case, is there? That the Boltons lost and the Manderly's won.

I'd assume there would be some number of smallfolk streaming south as Manderly gives over control of the castles to Ramsay. It's not as if it isn't common knowledge that he's a monster. Would you rather live where the "Lord" starved your former liege lord, starts a fight over land he realistically shouldn't have a claim to, and hunts and rapes peasant girls all over his land? There's open negative talk of the Boltons in the Merman court, the wine sinks, Lady Dustin mentions it, and Roose chastises his son for sowing tales in Bolton lands.

How much of the refugee population is due to that? I have no idea, but it's certainly something to take into consideration.

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13 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

snip

Excellent thanks for stepping in and ending a debate that was going on far too long.  

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The Hornwoods do have multiple castles, according to Wyman.

Quote

"Indeed." Lord Wyman gave Lady Leona a pat on the shoulder. "Lord Davos, if you are a lord, I know what your so-called king would have of me. Steel and silver and a bended knee." He shifted his weight to lean upon an elbow. "Before he was slain, Lord Tywin offered White Harbor full pardon for our support of the Young Wolf. He promised that my son would be returned to me once I paid a ransom of three thousand dragons and proved my loyalty beyond a doubt. Roose Bolton, who is named our Warden of the North, requires that I give up my claim to Lord Hornwood's lands and castles but swears my other holdings shall remain untouched. Walder Frey, his good-father, offers one of his daughters to be my wife, and husbands for my son's daughters here behind me. These terms seem generous to me, a good basis for a fair and lasting peace. You would have me spurn them. So I ask you, Onion Knight—what does Lord Stannis offer me in return for my allegiance?" (ADWD Davos III)

Ramsay abducts Donella while she is still returning home, forces her to marry in an unnamed location, and locks her in a tower (maybe part of a castle, maybe a holdfast, maybe a solitary building).

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The old knight was off east, trying to set to rights the trouble there. Roose Bolton's bastard had started it by seizing Lady Hornwood as she returned from the harvest feast, marrying her that very night even though he was young enough to be her son. (ACOK Bran IV)

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After their wedding, the Bastard had locked her in a tower and neglected to feed her. (ACOK Bran V)

In response, Wyman occupies Hornwood, the house's main castle.

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Then Lord Manderly had taken her castle. To protect the Hornwood holdings from the Boltons, he had written, but Ser Rodrik had been almost as angry with him as with the bastard. (ACOK Bran IV)

Rodrik eventually finds the unnamed tower which Ramsay imprisoned Donella in, but it is too late for her.

Quote

Bran had heard men saying that when Ser Rodrik had smashed down the door he found her with her mouth all bloody and her fingers chewed off. (ACOK Bran V)

 

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I didn't end any debate. I said there's merits to both your points.

Sorry, I must have missed that in your above post. 

Which points did we make that were deserving of your merit?

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34 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If you cannot derive that from my post, I won't hold you back. 

Sorry, didn't mean to offend just genuinely asking which points made had merit.  

 

Nothing in this post really mentions that. 

Thanks for contributing, much appreciated. 

 

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23 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, didn't mean to offend just genuinely asking which points made had merit.  

 

Nothing in this post really mentions that. 

Thanks for contributing, much appreciated. 

 

The Manderlys leaving the Hornwood lands under their control contributed to the stream of refugees and so did the ongoing fighting between the Manderlys and the Boltons. I can't attribute how much to either.

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10 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The Manderlys leaving the Hornwood lands under their control contributed to the stream of refugees and so did the ongoing fighting between the Manderlys and the Boltons. I can't attribute how much to either.

So I'm not the only person who thinks the fighting was ongoing. Thanks for contributing. 

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24 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

So I'm not the only person who thinks the fighting was ongoing. Thanks for contributing. 

FWIW I think the Boltons were losing, but yeah the fighting wouldn't have been done just like that.

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21 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

FWIW I think the Boltons were losing, but yeah the fighting wouldn't have been done just like that.

Yeah, thats cool. My main point was on the post that claimed the Boltons had lost. Thanks for chiming in. 

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