Clegane'sPup Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 Short answer is, “words are wind”. What people say matters not, only how they behave and their actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? Speaking only for myself, it isn't a surprise when it happens and it would make for a drabtasically boring story if everyone just walked in line. The funner part for me is to evaluate why I think a character is breaking their word. Is it for personal or selfish reasons, or something more altruistic in the long run? And I agree with others here that "words are wind". Humans are gonna human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 15 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: Short answer is, “words are wind”. weeeeeeel I argree that words are wind thank you for kicking off the tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Clegane'sPup said: weeeeeeel I argree that words are wind thank you for kicking off the tread. It’s one of the most interesting debates to be had at present. Sadly, lots of posters seem to be more into discussing their own fan fic head canon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted January 13, 2019 Share Posted January 13, 2019 I think most of the characters actually try to keep to the oaths, promises, etc. that they make. What Martin is good at, and does a lot, is to create situations where the oaths conflict, either with each other, or with common decency, or with the character's other heartfelt desires. In that case, oaths are gonna get broken. And that happens a lot in ASOIAF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 13, 2019 Author Share Posted January 13, 2019 Har! Let me stir the pot a bit. What are the rules --- whose vows, oaths, promises rule the roost? Sandor pretty much said frek you I ain't saying no vows. Yet Sandor still was given a white cloak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said: Sandor pretty much said frek you I ain't saying no vows. Yet Sandor still was given a white cloak I think the Hound has skated by for decades on the fact that he's huge, strong, skillful, fast and dangerous. Which not only makes him difficult to force against his will, but also very desireable - when he's on your side. Also, Joffrey was neither meticulous about process nor smart. As to which oaths are the most important, that is, what's the hierarchy, much of that would lie with the oath-taker. But we can guess that the entity to whom the oath is sworn makes a big difference. If you swear to the King, that trumps (sorry) your oath to your liege lord. Does it overwhelm your oath to your family? Maybe, maybe not. How about oaths to the Seven? Probably depends on how religious you are. Let's lremember Varys's parable of the sellsword, the wealthy man, the septon, and that other guy. I think oaths have greater power in the North. "Words are wind" seems to be a southron saying. Cersei particularly loves it. She doesn't even respect written testaments, witnessed and signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 15 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? There are a lot of pledges and vows in the real world as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
three-eyed monkey Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 14 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? I don't think it is a surprise when people break them. In fact it is made quite clear that they are sometimes impossible to keep due to contradiction with other vows, or more notably, like in Jaime's case with Aerys, they contradict doing the right thing. I think it was summed up by@kissdbyfire Words are wind. One of the broader messages I get from the series is that promises, oaths, bloodlines, knighthood, and other such things are not the measure of someone, their actions are. It is not the oath that makes us believe the man, but the man the oath. ~ Aeschylus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 Well, Oathbreakers can be executed for it, it seems as when Robb threatens the Greatjohn. It depends on who you swore to I suppose. A king, lord, the Night's watch can kill you for it. The Night's watch is pretty much the last chance for anyone and if you break it there, well, you are pretty much done for unless it was a matter of carrying out a mission, such as Jon/Ygritte, The Half Hand etc..... Jaime Lannister is seen as the worst by many because of Stabbing Aerys in the back but being Tywin's son probably made a difference and the Rebellion as well etc.. Personal Oaths between friends and family are likely the most commonly broken and the least enforceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seams Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 The social constructs that get in the way of "doing the right thing" are a big part of GRRM's message. In addition to the "words are wind" nature of oaths and vows, he gives us several examples around "shit for honor" and the shit buckets that tip over, creating a mess. Sansa believes she is searching for a "true knight," but she ends up being more attracted to the candor and strength of Sandor, who refuses to be a knight. People who have taken knightly vows do things that many of us would consider to be inherently dishonorable: killing babies and children, beating and killing defenseless women, raping and pillaging. I think the point is, as @three-eyed monkey notes, that actions are more important than the vows. Be a good person, defend the helpless, and it doesn't matter whether you have taken a vow or not. The Jaime / kingslayer example of @A Ghost of Someone is a fine case in point, too: we think Jaime is a bad person for killing a king until we find out that Jaime was trying to save the entire city from a crazy lunatic determined to spitefully destroy the lives of thousands of people. It appeared that he broke a vow, but aren't we glad that he did so? We also see people take marriage vows and then treat their partners in cruel or disrespectful ways: Ramsay starving Lady Hornwood, Ramsay raping fArya / Jeyne; Cersei cheating on Robert, Robert cheating on Cersei. Children born outside of a recognized marriage are marginalized simply because of the vows or lack of vows of their parents, and through no fault of the child's own making. Grand Maester Pycelle probably took a vow of celibacy as part of his religious leadership, but Tyrion finds him in bed with a woman. The High Sparrow has apparently decided that his form of holiness is superior to that of his predecessors because he is not worldly and he helps the poor. But readers suspect that he is not the simply holy man he appears to be, and we are a bit taken aback by the harsh treatment of Cersei, even though there is a sense that she deserved some punishment for her many bad acts. Another example is the Rat Cook story: he is condemned not for the cannibalism he tricks his guest into committing, but for violating guest right. How absurd is that? Why is one crime seen as the true offense when the other crime strikes most of us as the greater taboo? Manderly is careful to avoid the problem by (it appears) murdering his Frey guests only after they leave his home and are no longer protected by guest right. I think George is making the point that we use law, religion, pledges and social expectations to excuse bad behavior as often as we use it to promote good behavior. Or bad stuff happens in spite of the laws. The lesson is to just try to do the right thing and not get hung up on whether one has spoken vows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 14, 2019 Share Posted January 14, 2019 “So they will not love,” the old man answered, “for love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” What is honor compared to a woman’s love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother’s smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy. “A craven can be as brave as any man, when there is nothing to fear. And we all do our duty, when there is no cost to it. How easy it seems then, to walk the path of honor. Yet soon or late in every man’s life comes a day when it is not easy, a day when he must choose.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisdaw Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 It is a somewhat useful writing device in that when character's loyalties and intentions are so stated it makes things black and white and becomes a point of reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell's son Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 12:40 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. It is a fantasy series, so those things mean something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 11:04 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Sandor pretty much said frek you I ain't saying no vows. Yet Sandor still was given a white cloak Partly. He refused to swear a knight's oaths, but at the same time accepted that he would have to give up any hopes of a wife or lands of his own. So it sounds like he was ready to swear the standard oaths taken by Kingsguard when they get the white cloak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 3:40 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? Oathbreakers are cursed in Westeros. Robb breaking his oath to Walder Frey was a disgrace and an example of a Stark lacking honor. Bastard brother Jon breaks his oaths to the Night Watch when he tried to rescue Arya. Take note that they got their comeuppance. They are expected to keep their oaths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jô Maltese Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 OP, GRRM has explained this many times before, quote below for instance: Quote Much as I admire Tolkien, and I do admire Tolkien — he’s been a huge influence on me, and his Lord of the Rings is the mountain that leans over every other fantasy written since and shaped all of modern fantasy — there are things about it, the whole concept of the Dark Lord, and good guys battling bad guys, Good versus Evil, while brilliantly handled in Tolkien, in the hands of many Tolkien successors, it has become kind of a cartoon. We don’t need any more Dark Lords, we don’t need any more, ‘Here are the good guys, they’re in white, there are the bad guys, they’re in black. And also, they’re really ugly, the bad guys. It is certainly a genuine, legitimate topic as the core of fantasy, but I think the battle between Good and Evil is waged within the individual human hearts. We all have good in us and we all have evil in us, and we may do a wonderful good act on Tuesday and a horrible, selfish, bad act on Wednesday, and to me, that’s the great human drama of fiction. I believe in gray characters, as I’ve said before. We all have good and evil in us and there are very few pure paragons and there are very few orcs. A villain is a hero of the other side, as someone said once, and I think there’s a great deal of truth to that, and that’s the interesting thing. In the case of war, that kind of situation, so I think some of that is definitely what I’m aiming at. GRRM for Time Entertainment, 18 April 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Leftwich Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 Because having an 8,000 page appendix of contract law would make for less interesting reading? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 Many interesting relies. A lot of room for debate and discussion. I kinda like @Seamsassessment best. We rarely agree on stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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