Seams Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 4 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said: Many interesting relies. A lot of room for debate and discussion. I kinda like @Seamsassessment best. We rarely agree on stuff. Louis, I think this is the beginning of a beautiful friendship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Springwatch said: Partly. [Sandor] refused to swear a knight's oaths, but at the same time accepted that he would have to give up any hopes of a wife or lands of his own. So it sounds like he was ready to swear the standard oaths taken by Kingsguard when they get the white cloak. I think it was more Sandor's assessment that he never would have a wife or lands or title, not that he would need to go to any great trouble to foreswear them. Him saying "and who'd care if I did?" was one of the saddest statements I'd read; although Sansa dutifully noted it, she didn't seem to, you know, actually hear it. Sansa seems to be a pretty good observer (not to change the subject); if she could but learn to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears" etc, as Sylvio Forell taught Arya, instead of pre-filtering and spinning her observations to herself, she could do much better than she has thus far. (What will Winds of Winter bring??) But, back on topic - are there any vows that women swear? Outside of maybe marriage and vows to the Church of the 7? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 15, 2019 Author Share Posted January 15, 2019 The most important take away is circa 2013 --- When people are trying to justify and rationalize their arguments and/or debates about vows, oaths and pledges please know that it has been done before. I still think @Seamsgave the best assessment so far in this 2019 tread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/14/2019 at 11:47 AM, Seams said: The social constructs that get in the way of "doing the right thing" are a big part of GRRM's message. In addition to the "words are wind" nature of oaths and vows, he gives us several examples around "shit for honor" and the shit buckets that tip over, creating a mess. Sansa believes she is searching for a "true knight," but she ends up being more attracted to the candor and strength of Sandor, who refuses to be a knight. People who have taken knightly vows do things that many of us would consider to be inherently dishonorable: killing babies and children, beating and killing defenseless women, raping and pillaging. I think the point is, as @three-eyed monkey notes, that actions are more important than the vows. Be a good person, defend the helpless, and it doesn't matter whether you have taken a vow or not. The Jaime / kingslayer example of @A Ghost of Someone is a fine case in point, too: we think Jaime is a bad person for killing a king until we find out that Jaime was trying to save the entire city from a crazy lunatic determined to spitefully destroy the lives of thousands of people. It appeared that he broke a vow, but aren't we glad that he did so? We also see people take marriage vows and then treat their partners in cruel or disrespectful ways: Ramsay starving Lady Hornwood, Ramsay raping fArya / Jeyne; Cersei cheating on Robert, Robert cheating on Cersei. Children born outside of a recognized marriage are marginalized simply because of the vows or lack of vows of their parents, and through no fault of the child's own making. Grand Maester Pycelle probably took a vow of celibacy as part of his religious leadership, but Tyrion finds him in bed with a woman. The High Sparrow has apparently decided that his form of holiness is superior to that of his predecessors because he is not worldly and he helps the poor. But readers suspect that he is not the simply holy man he appears to be, and we are a bit taken aback by the harsh treatment of Cersei, even though there is a sense that she deserved some punishment for her many bad acts. Another example is the Rat Cook story: he is condemned not for the cannibalism he tricks his guest into committing, but for violating guest right. How absurd is that? Why is one crime seen as the true offense when the other crime strikes most of us as the greater taboo? Manderly is careful to avoid the problem by (it appears) murdering his Frey guests only after they leave his home and are no longer protected by guest right. I think George is making the point that we use law, religion, pledges and social expectations to excuse bad behavior as often as we use it to promote good behavior. Or bad stuff happens in spite of the laws. The lesson is to just try to do the right thing and not get hung up on whether one has spoken vows. Very good points throughout. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 3:40 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Seriously folks. The NW take a vow. The KG take a vow. People make promises. People make oaths. Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html It's a matter of peace and harmony. People can't live together in peace without formal agreements. Enforced oaths and vows are needed to hold people accountable. You cannot have order if people did as they wished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 19 hours ago, zandru said: I think it was more Sandor's assessment that he never would have a wife or lands or title, not that he would need to go to any great trouble to foreswear them. Him saying "and who'd care if I did?" was one of the saddest statements I'd read; although Sansa dutifully noted it, she didn't seem to, you know, actually hear it. Sansa seems to be a pretty good observer (not to change the subject); if she could but learn to "see with her eyes, hear with her ears" etc, as Sylvio Forell taught Arya, instead of pre-filtering and spinning her observations to herself, she could do much better than she has thus far. (What will Winds of Winter bring??) But, back on topic - are there any vows that women swear? Outside of maybe marriage and vows to the Church of the 7? Oath taking usually seems to be a joyless business (on page, at least). Maybe Brienne was the exception, I don't know. Generally, serious people take oaths, and happy people (like Salladhor Saan) just don't see the point. I'll have to assume Sandor took KG oaths, even though not on page. He does take oaths; he's Joff's sworn shield. And he acts like he broke a lot of rules when he ran from King's Landing. The main thing is, we've seen enough of the KG to know that strictly obeying oaths can result in very unethical acts. Sandor did well to break free. Can't think of any women's oaths, true. I suppose they're not often asked for any, being expected to back up their man. We don't know if Mirri took any oath to Dany either, but Dany executed her for treason anyway. It's like her oath of loyalty was assumed. But I think Jorah and Barristan did swear alleigence to Dany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 14 hours ago, Enuma Elish said: People can't live together in peace without formal agreements. I gotta agree. Utopia --- People don't need enforcers or henchmen if people live in peace --- except as has be shown through history peaceful people rarely survive the onslaught of invaders. 15 hours ago, Enuma Elish said: Enforced oaths and vows are needed to hold people accountable. This is bordering on an educational, social and philosophical discussion which I am not going to venture into. Merely a passing suggestion, if you are interested browse through the post that was posted before yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 18, 2019 Author Share Posted January 18, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 2:34 AM, Enuma Elish said: https://slate.com/business/2013/06/game-of-thrones-economics-red-wedding-robb-stark-and-breach-of-trust-in-marriage-alliances.html It's a matter of peace and harmony. People can't live together in peace without formal agreements. Enforced oaths and vows are needed to hold people accountable. You cannot have order if people did as they wished. Hiya. I see that you gave the opening post a sad face emoji. Rather than type out a bunch of response I thought I would use the internet to help express my thoughts. Anthropology seeks to uncover principles of behavior that apply to all human communities. To an anthropologist, diversity itself—seen in body shapes and sizes, customs, clothing, speech, religion, and worldview—provides a frame of reference for understanding any single aspect of life in any given community. Ethics and morals differ in important ways. The complex issues that anthropologists confront rarely admit to the simple wrongs and rights of moral dicta, and one of the prime ethical obligations of anthropologists is to carefully and deliberately weigh the consequences and ethical dimensions of the choices they make — by action or inaction. Similarly, ethical principles and political positions should not be conflated; their foci of concern are quite distinct. Finally, ethics and law differ in important ways, and care must always be taken in making these distinctions. Different processes are involved in making ethical versus legal decisions, and they are subject to different regulations. While moral, political, legal and regulatory issues are often important to anthropological practice and the discipline, they are not specifically considered here. These principles address ethical concerns. As I Toldda ya On 1/16/2019 at 5:41 PM, Clegane'sPup said: This is bordering on an educational, social and philosophical discussion which I am not going to venture into. Do no harm. Mind blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcelowww Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 On 1/13/2019 at 6:40 PM, Clegane'sPup said: Soooooooooooo, when martin's characters break their vows, oaths, promises why is it a surprise? Because vows, oaths and promises are sacred, and to break them is the equivalent of doing something atrocious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted January 19, 2019 Author Share Posted January 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Marcelowww said: Because vows, oaths and promises are sacred, and to break them is the equivalent of doing something atrocious. Scared. Atrocious. Strong words. You have not broken a promise --- a vow --- a solemn promise. You have not broken a oath --- a solemn promise, often invoking a divine witness, regarding one's future action or behavior. Back to the books martin wrote, his characters frequently do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.