Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

And finally, as pointed out by Snowfyre, just like Sansa is a type of apple Petyr Baelish leads us to the bael which is also a type of fruit,otherwise known as a stone apple.

I googled the bael apple and came across a different meaning. Bael is an alternative spelling of Baal as in the semitic god and the medieval demon.

In the demon version Baal is basically a skinchanger capable of appearing as a man, a cat or a toad. In his god version he is associated with the bull (a link to Gerold Hightower?).

Going back further to its original form Ba'al is the semitic languages word for lord. It was used as a title for gods too; for example Beelzebub is Ba'al Zəbûb. Linking this to ASOIAF we could get that Baelish would be "lordish" (almost a lord) and going to the Old Tongue, bael=magnar=lord.

Bael using the name Sygerrik (deceiver) would make him something like a Lord of Lies. This brings us into Middle Eastern mythology again to Belial/Baalial, an alternative reference to Lucifer (or other demons) and to one of the Dead Sea scrolls that deals with a prophecy of an apocalyptic war between light and darkness: War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness

Another link is to the babylonian storm god, Bel Marduk that defeats Tiamat, a dragon and goddess of the sea. This sounds similar to the Iron Islands and Stormlands legends.

[asongofheresy]

Is it possible Gilly is the blue flower from HotU vision? She is named after a flower and not any flower but a wallflower, her son is brothers to Others and was going to be given to them, to protect him she crossed the Blackgate and later left the baby at the Wall. Gillyflowers are related to stock and carnations - and carnations are funeral flowers in Turkey. I know the general opinion is about RLJ and Jon being a blue rose but is there any possibility Gilly/Samwell Jr is the blue flower? 

[Brad Stark]

7 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I tend to agree.  At this portion of her vision quest, many of the images appear to be less literal than the images she received earlier.  

Do we know for certain any of the hotu visions aren't literal?  It seems most or all of the visions we understand are literal.  

If 'beast' is not literal, it could refer to almost anyone or anything. 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we know for certain any of the hotu visions aren't literal?

The only one that might not be literal is Blue flower on the Wall, but we can't confirm that. 

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Do we know for certain any of the hotu visions aren't literal?  It seems most or all of the visions we understand are literal.  

If 'beast' is not literal, it could refer to almost anyone or anything. 

I think it’s a safe guess, that absent her “visions” of her brothers’ deaths, the rest of the visions are probably more symbolic than literal.  

Otherwise, do we really believe that the vision is simply showing Dany a parade with a cloth dragon, or is this representative of a mummer’s dragon, i.e. Varys’ dragon?  

The other vision that is almost assuredly symbolic is the blue flower growing from the chink of ice filling the air with sweetness.  

Even the blue eyed king with the glowing red sword (like sunset).  Is he actually not casting a shadow or is that symbolic of something else?  For that matter is the sword actual or symbolic?  

So I don’t think it’s a stretch that pretty much all of these visions are symbolic to a certain extent.  If the blue flower from the chink of ice represents a character, or if the cloth dragon represents a character than it seems a safe bet that the stone beast may as well.

[Frey family reunion]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

I googled the bael apple and came across a different meaning. Bael is an alternative spelling of Baal as in the semitic god and the medieval demon.

In the demon version Baal is basically a skinchanger capable of appearing as a man, a cat or a toad. In his god version he is associated with the bull (a link to Gerold Hightower?).

Going back further to its original form Ba'al is the semitic languages word for lord. It was used as a title for gods too; for example Beelzebub is Ba'al Zəbûb. Linking this to ASOIAF we could get that Baelish would be "lordish" (almost a lord) and going to the Old Tongue, bael=magnar=lord.

Bael using the name Sygerrik (deceiver) would make him something like a Lord of Lies. This brings us into Middle Eastern mythology again to Belial/Baalial, an alternative reference to Lucifer (or other demons) and to one of the Dead Sea scrolls that deals with a prophecy of an apocalyptic war between light and darkness: War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness

Another link is to the babylonian storm god, Bel Marduk that defeats Tiamat, a dragon and goddess of the sea. This sounds similar to the Iron Islands and Stormlands legends.

I don’t disagree with your analysis.  I just believe that George may like to play word association a bit, and all of the associations you bring probably are inspirations behind George’s use of the name.  I wish I could find the links to some of Snowfyre’s posts regarding the Bael fruit, though, it was pretty interesting stuff.  Especially in connection with George’s other “apple” symbolism.

As for Baal, yes I think it also links back to some of the darker symbolism we talked about with the tower of joy.  Like the bull headed Moloch, Baal Hammon has also been linked to child sacrifice.  He has also been depicted as a man flanked by two sphinxes.   

[SirArthur]

Visions are like prophecies, they need a point to them. It doesn't really matter if they are true or false, or literal or symbolic. In both cases they need to give the receiver (in this case Dany) a chance to understand them. 

We have already talked about the difference between a dragon and a beast for Dany. The same is true for a blue flower on an ice wall. The blue flower must be relevant and understandable for Dany. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it possible Gilly is the blue flower from HotU vision? She is named after a flower and not any flower but a wallflower, her son is brothers to Others and was going to be given to them, to protect him she crossed the Blackgate and later left the baby at the Wall. Gillyflowers are related to stock and carnations - and carnations are funeral flowers in Turkey. I know the general opinion is about RLJ and Jon being a blue rose but is there any possibility Gilly/Samwell Jr is the blue flower? 

IMO 'blue' equates death. When combined with 'flower' I think of something blooming. Stab wounds 'bloom' bright red. 

In the Cat of the Canals chapter 'blue' is paired with 'lantern', which in my opinion is symbolic of death sparking or lighting magic. Lanterns are 'lit' - they contain flame. Lanterns are also associated with magic, as in the Green Lantern, who I might point out got his powers from a green meteor. 

Applying this to the blue flower we get death causing something to bloom. At the end of Dance Jon is stabbed and dying. It would appear his death may bloom - but bloom what?

Gilly's Monster could also die and bloom. He is Craster’s son after all. Craster's wives believed the cold gods would smell his new life and come for him, so he too could 'bloom' a different sort of life.

[Tucu]

49 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t disagree with your analysis.  I just believe that George may like to play word association a bit, and all of the associations you bring probably are inspirations behind George’s use of the name.  I wish I could find the links to some of Snowfyre’s posts regarding the Bael fruit, though, it was pretty interesting stuff.  Especially in connection with George’s other “apple” symbolism.

As for Baal, yes I think it also links back to some of the darker symbolism we talked about with the tower of joy.  Like the bull headed Moloch, Baal Hammon has also been linked to child sacrifice.  He has also been depicted as a man flanked by two sphinxes.   

This one in Heresy 103?

Quote

I've had some ideas. How you phrase the question is interesting, and reflects part of the challenge I've found tracing plant metaphors. The most satisfying analogy by far has been the apples analogy. But it's not really limited to an Apple-Wolf analogy, or even an Apple-Stark analogy. It might be an apple-First Men analogy... but I'm not entirely sure that works, either. It's not strictly Northern. Starks are apples. Wildlings are apples. But Fossaways are also apples, and they're somewhere down in the Reach. And the farther south you go in Westeros, the more obvious the gardening analogy becomes. Highgarden, the Arbor, House Gardener, House Florent, Houses Rowan, Oakheart and Redwyne; insignias and coats of arms bearing roses, apples, or grapes, etc.

Lannisters are an interesting set... I think I've got them pegged as Sunflowers/Daisies (the "Aster" family of flowers) - though Tyrion undergoes an identity shift in ADWD, and looks like he's headed in a somewhat new direction. At least, his animal totem appears to be changing from Lion to Snake... but while there are plant references tied up in that transition, I'm not sure Martin's revealed the metaphorical landing spot for Tyrion yet.

And for the Targaryens/dragons... well, there are plenty of plant/fruit candidates to work with. The ebony / persimmons tree family looks like a foil to the weirwood / birch tree of North Westeros - and the date-plum (lilac persimmon) seems like it could be connected with Dany. Olives (or the Oleaceae plant family) also look particularly interesting.

In the end, though, I don't think Martin is too strict with the metaphor boundaries - there's a lot of semantic wordplay. For instance, he uses both the apple and the pomegranate as symbols for House Stark... etymologies for the pomegranate include both "seeded apple" and "fruit of the dead." And by presenting Jon as the bael fruit, Martin builds in connections to a number of metaphors and source mythologies he's been working with all along. The "golden apple" is one synonym for the bael fruit, and golden apples figure into several ancient mythologies (Greek and Old Norse, just to name two). And "stone apple" looks like a semantic point of connection for Martin to work with as the "dragons from stone" prophecy plays out. (Lots of interesting allusions in the various scientific names associated with the bael, too. Try looking up any of the various word parts in: Aegle marmelos; Feronia pellucida; Crataeva marmelos).

So, that's the sorta long answer - basically the apple metaphor is the clearest. But once I started really looking for the horticulture connections, my eyes got big... there's so much to see, that I've found it difficult to stay focused on just one thing.

Interesting  that the golden apple mythology is linked with a passport to the Irish Otherworld (current realm of the sidhe) in the Voyage of Bran

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO 'blue' equates death. When combined with 'flower' I think of something blooming. Stab wounds 'bloom' bright red. 

In the Cat of the Canals chapter 'blue' is paired with 'lantern', which in my opinion is symbolic of death sparking or lighting magic. Lanterns are 'lit' - they contain flame. Lanterns are also associated with magic, as in the Green Lantern, who I might point out got his powers from a green meteor. 

Applying this to the blue flower we get death causing something to bloom. At the end of Dance Jon is stabbed and dying. It would appear his death may bloom - but bloom what?

Gilly's Monster could also die and bloom. He is Craster’s son after all. Craster's wives believed the cold gods would smell his new life and come for him, so he too could 'bloom' a different sort of life.

Sweetness is also associated with death in the books so there is a dead flower filling the air with sweetness maybe a bad odor in truth? Is it possible Jaffer Flowers is the reason Wall will weaken? I think Jon put him in Ice Cells? 

Btw I was thinking if Gilly really changed the babies or not? Both Jon and Sam comments about how two babies look same though Sam Jr is older but Aemon is bigger, so is it possible Gilly actually chose to save her son in the end? Did Val noticed? Is that why she overreacted when she saw Shireen? 

[Melifeather]

12 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Btw I was thinking if Gilly really changed the babies or not? Both Jon and Sam comments about how two babies look same though Sam Jr is older but Aemon is bigger, so is it possible Gilly actually chose to save her son in the end? Did Val noticed? Is that why she overreacted when she saw Shireen? 

Aemon Steelsong was larger and more robust, while Monster was smaller and quieter. Gilly was noticeably sobbing on the ship, and her parting words with Jon are pretty solid proof that she left her natural child behind. Val did notice. She's the one that nicknamed him Monster. I think the wildlings recognize greyscale as a negative side effect of magic and fear it, which indicates a level of experience.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

Visions are like prophecies, they need a point to them. It doesn't really matter if they are true or false, or literal or symbolic. In both cases they need to give the receiver (in this case Dany) a chance to understand them. 

We have already talked about the difference between a dragon and a beast for Dany. The same is true for a blue flower on an ice wall. The blue flower must be relevant and understandable for Dany. 

GRRM might include something Dany does not have a chance to understand but the reader does. 

In either case, the key is to be understandable and relevant, but not necessarily at the present time.  I doubt either the beast or flower is understandable to Dany while she is in the HOTU, but will be in the future. 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Aemon Steelsong was larger and more robust, while Monster was smaller and quieter. Gilly was noticeably sobbing on the ship, and her parting words with Jon are pretty solid proof that she left her natural child behind. Val did notice. She's the one that nicknamed him Monster. I think the wildlings recognize greyscale as a negative side effect of magic and fear it, which indicates a level of experience.

I think it will be interesting if Gilly chose the save her own baby considering no one will care about the Monster and could still be sad because she was selfish, Val wouldn't say anything since she will have her nephew with her and as someone who believes Val will left NW with Monster and the flat cheated wetnurse not-a-baby-swap don't affect me much. But maybe Gilly really changed the babies. 

If we are discussing Bael's name baelfyr in Irish/Scottish (?) means funeral pyre from bael (funeral) + fyr (fire) though it later changed meaning to bonfire. It was also a paganist rituals to protect herds by Scottish people. 

[Janneyc1]

53 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I think the wildlings recognize greyscale as a negative side effect of magic and fear it, which indicates a level of experience

Greyscale has been linked to the water magic performed by the Rhoynish Wizards. Greyscale itself originates from the Rhoyne area. Furthermore, Cold Magic might just be an extension of Water Magic. If so, greyscale among the Wildlings could have been a thing when the Others were created, which is why the Wildlings are so fearful of it. 

 

There is also the thought that the Others can convert Craster's Boys into Popsicles. I theorize that this transformation could be similar to greyscale, but perhaps done with Ice? 

[JNR]

13 hours ago, Matthew. said:

when it is more fitting to view this as narration from GRRM that is establishing the tone for the chapter

Well, GRRM is really not doing a stereotypical third-person narration in these books; the content is relentlessly mediated through the POV perspective despite the appearance of third person.

That's  one of the defining traits and most interesting innovations of the series, IMO.  It's also a primary reason why, in recent interviews, he characterizes TWOW as being more like a series of novels than a single novel.

He is constantly having to shift gears and think from a different perspective, each time he switches POV... and reflect that outlook in the phrasing and organization of the prose... not just write in everyday third person about a different character, which is a different and far simpler goal.

See also this SSM:

Quote

Jokes about why he never wrote a Rickon POV. "I have an inner child, but it's not that young."

You see, if he were doing standard third person narration, it would be trivially easy to write Rickon chapters.   Because the narration would be identical for all characters, including Rickon, Summer, Davos, Bran, Ned, Dany, etc. 

But it isn't, of course; it's constantly changing.  So I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

[Lady Rhodes]

3 minutes ago, JNR said:

You see, if he were doing standard third person narration, it would be trivially easy to write Rickon chapters.   Because the narration would be identical for all characters, including Rickon, Summer, Davos, Bran, Ned, Dany, etc. 

I agree. If anyone has ever tried to write like this, they will know it is very difficult. GRRM, when writing, has to think like them and have them learn from their experiences rather that what he would learn if he had experienced those things. It is quite difficult!

[Melifeather]

43 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Greyscale has been linked to the water magic performed by the Rhoynish Wizards. Greyscale itself originates from the Rhoyne area. Furthermore, Cold Magic might just be an extension of Water Magic. If so, greyscale among the Wildlings could have been a thing when the Others were created, which is why the Wildlings are so fearful of it. 

 

There is also the thought that the Others can convert Craster's Boys into Popsicles. I theorize that this transformation could be similar to greyscale, but perhaps done with Ice? 

Greyscale and wightification both seem to be side effects from casting spells using water and air. 

Greyscale is just the flip side of the same coin as wights. If we do a side by side comparison you'd see the similarities and the inversions.

Greyscale is contagious via touch. - Wights can make other wights if they kill you.

The fog agitates the stone men. - The cold wind rises the wights.

The Sorrows is a watery place. - The North is a "sea".

Greyscale traps the living inside their bodies. - Wights are able to rise because the spirit is trapped in the bones.

[SirArthur]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

GRRM might include something Dany does not have a chance to understand but the reader does. 

In either case, the key is to be understandable and relevant, but not necessarily at the present time.  I doubt either the beast or flower is understandable to Dany while she is in the HOTU, but will be in the future. 

I agree. But I also think it is relevant for Dany, not for the universe in general. E.g. the prince in the black armor has a connection to Dany.

[Lady Rhodes]

Quote

She now sees visions in her head, floating faster and faster:

1. Viserys dying;
2. a tall lord with copper skin and silver hair bearing the banner of a fiery stallion;^[4]
3. a dying prince with rubies flying from his armor whispering the name of a woman with his last breath;^[5]
4. a blue-eyed king with a red sword in his hand who casts no shadow;^[6]
5. a cloth dragon amidst a cheering crowd;
6. a great stone beast flying from a smoking tower, breathing shadow fire;
7. her Silver horse given to her by Drogo at her wedding;
8. a corpse at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, smiling sadly;^[7]
9. a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice;
10. shadows dancing in a tent;
11. a little girl running toward a house with a red door;^[8]
12. Mirri Maz Duur shrieking in the flames as a dragon bursts from her;
13. a corpse being dragged behind a silver horse;
14. a white lion running through grass taller than a man;
15. a line of naked crones emerging from a lake, kneeling before Daenerys beneath the Mother of Mountains;
16. ten thousand slaves crying "Mother" as Daenerys rides by on her silver.^[9]

At this point, the visions turn to a nightmare as the Undying try to consume Dany, and she is helpless to stop them until Drogon starts to tear the corrupted heart to pieces. Fleeing from the burning House of the Undying, Pyat Pree attacks her with a dagger, but Drogon interrupts him long enough for Daenerys to hear Jhogo’s whip crack, and then she is in the arms of Ser Jorah.

From the wiki.

I mentioned this earlier, but I think there is a pattern, and if we can figure out the pattern, we may be able to figure out what the things mean.  Conversely, if we can figure out what some of the things mean, we may be able to figure out the pattern.  Kind of a chicken vs egg scenario. (key note: when I saw past, present, future, I mean for those to be at the time of her receipt of the visions)

1. Something that happened in the near past.
2. Something that should have/would have happened.
3. Something that happened in the far past.
4. Current?
5. Future - presumably Aegon
6.  
7. Something that happened in the near past
8. I think this is future - given the Winds chapter with Aeron.
9. present
10. something in the near past
11. something in the far past
12. something in the near past
13. something in the future (pale male?)
14.
15. something in the future
16. something in the future

Anyone care to add?

[Tucu]

39 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

From the wiki.

I mentioned this earlier, but I think there is a pattern, and if we can figure out the pattern, we may be able to figure out what the things mean.  Conversely, if we can figure out what some of the things mean, we may be able to figure out the pattern.  Kind of a chicken vs egg scenario. (key note: when I saw past, present, future, I mean for those to be at the time of her receipt of the visions)

1. Something that happened in the near past.
2. Something that should have/would have happened.
3. Something that happened in the far past.
4. Current?
5. Future - presumably Aegon
6.  
7. Something that happened in the near past
8. I think this is future - given the Winds chapter with Aeron.
9. present
10. something in the near past
11. something in the far past
12. something in the near past
13. something in the future (pale male?)
14.
15. something in the future
16. something in the future

Anyone care to add?

6. Something that should have/would have happened (Davos intervened)

8. I would say Aemon in AFFC, so future

13. The wine merchant that tried to kill her and was executed by walking/dragging him behind her horse. So past.

14. Drogo hunts a white lion in AGoT and Dany wears it after he dies. So past