Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Lady Rhodes]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

6. Something that should have/would have happened (Davos intervened)

8. I would say Aemon in AFFC, so future

13. The wine merchant that tried to kill her and was executed by walking/dragging him behind her horse. So past.

14. Drogo hunts a white lion in AGoT and Dany wears it after he dies. So past

Thanks for the input!

Since everyone is theorizing, I thought people may have thoughts on the pattern!

[Matthew.]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

You see, if he were doing standard third person narration, it would be trivially easy to write Rickon chapters.   Because the narration would be identical for all characters, including Rickon, Summer, Davos, Bran, Ned, Dany, etc. 

It would be easier in theory, and one of the reasons I'm critical of the choice to narrowly stick to the "POV system" (not the usage of multiple POVs, but the structure of chapters) is that I don't think the stylistic differences between chapters is sufficiently interesting or distinct enough to justify the extent to which the structure has both been a straitjacket and a significant contributor to page count and plotline bloat; to reiterate the most extreme example, he's not doing anything so experimental as the multi-POV first person narration one can find in Ulysses or As I Lay Dying.

POVs differ far more in content (what the character is thinking, what is happening) than in prose, vocabulary, grammar; I highlighted the Bran chapter because GRRM's not narrating as a child, just as Victarion is (as per GRRM) "dumb as a stump," but his chapters are still filled with narration that is mostly exhibiting GRRM's voice and eloquence. 

More succinctly, the quibble at hand is, when it comes to the "subjective, limited" part of "third person limited/subjective," just how subjective was the framing of the HOTU? How limited the knowledge expressed in the characterizations? Is it as subjective as a wolf dream, or as open as some of the other more mystical and surreal chapters?

Personally, I think it reads more as GRRM's 3rd person voice being ambiguous (but still accurately defining the figures, such as "the dying prince"), rather than Dany being internally ambiguous, but I understand why others might disagree, or find it to be inherently more fruitful to question whether or not the characterizations reflect Dany's biases--and, in turn, what those biases might reveal about the visions.

[Matthew.]

5 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think it’s a safe guess, that absent her “visions” of her brothers’ deaths, the rest of the visions are probably more symbolic than literal.  

I would agree, and I'd go so far as to say that even the visions that are depicting real events are meant to be more like fever dream recreation, to embody the spirit of the event, rather than to literally recreate the scene with absolute fidelity.

To use an in-world analogy, I don't feel as though these visions of the past are to be interpreted the same as, say, a weirwood vision of the past--I think they're more akin to Eddard's TOJ dream. 

Your elaboration on the vision of Stannis is a perfect example; I don't think it reads as literally displaying Stannis in a particular moment or as he truly 'is,' but rather, the flourishes of him having no shadow and his sword "glowing like sunset" symbolize certain ideas. So too with most of the other visions, IMO.

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

4. Current?

Jon could certainly be one interpretation of a blue-eyed king with a sword glowing like sunset that casts no shadow. If he dies and is resurrected, it's possible that his eyes would turn blue. Jon himself dreams of wielding a burning sword. I wonder if a magical creature would lack a shadow? Perhaps he wouldn't be 'casting' a shadow, because he isn't casting spells, therefore he's neither a white nor a black shadow. He'd be something else.

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Jon could certainly be one interpretation of a blue-eyed king with a sword glowing like sunset that casts no shadow. If he dies and is resurrected, it's possible that his eyes would turn blue. Jon himself dreams of wielding a burning sword. I wonder if a magical creature would lack a shadow? Perhaps he wouldn't be 'casting' a shadow, because he isn't casting spells, therefore he's neither a white nor a black shadow. He'd be something else.

I always get Darth Vader imagery when I read that about that dream. Anyways, I feel like a lack of shadow could be explained as either being undead and not having a shadow, or being part Other and having a white shadow. I think that when he gets revived (if he needs revival) he will find that he can use magic more freely. I could see him being just below Bran in terms of power. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Probably worth highlighting the fact that the HOTU chapter is not just a Dany POV chapter.  For the most part it is a "Dany-Under-the-Influence" POV chapter. 

You might call it a "DUI" chapter, for short. 

Quote

"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips...

 

...and from there, she experiences what one can only consider a Bad Trip, with all the accompanying symptoms.  Hallucinations, disorientation, anxiety, panic... dry, nude, ancient half-dead men and women pinching her nipple and sucking her eyeball.  You know, the usual.

It's a third person unlimited perspective... if you're into that sort of thing.

[JNR]

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I don't think the stylistic differences between chapters is sufficiently interesting or distinct enough to justify the extent to which the structure has both been a straitjacket

There I'm afraid we might agree. 

It is evidently more a challenge for GRRM than it used to be; he complains about it these days in interviews, but he's been using it all along, and of course this is a structure he chose, not one that anybody hired him to write. 

Same applies to his complaints that these are really long books.  Well, that's because he makes them really long.  I think the fans would be happy with more, shorter, and more frequent books, as opposed to the status quo. 

4 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I highlighted the Bran chapter because GRRM's not narrating as a child

Well, it's not as overt as the Summer content, but I think the Bran chapters are generally rather well done.

The KotLT chapter for instance is mostly Meera, but also has passages like this:

Quote

Bran knew that feeling well enough. When he'd been little, all he had ever dreamed of was being a knight. But that had been before he fell and lost his legs.

Stylistically, this third-person content is just very short and blunt and simple... childlike, IMO.  I can't picture Tyrion chapters with this sort of thing.  But it also helps explain why Bran instantly empathizes with the crannogman and assumes he's the knight.

Quote

"This isn't going to be one of those love stories, is it?" Bran asked suspiciously. "Hodor doesn't like those so much."

This, I would guess, was directly inspired by the Fred Savage character and his very similar remarks from The Princess Bride.  GRRM also adds the twist of having Bran foist his objection onto Hodor, which is cute.

And the conclusion:

Quote

All the tales agreed that the green men had strange magic powers. Maybe they could help him walk again, even turn him into a knight. They turned the little crannogman into a knight, even if it was only for a day, he thought. A day would be enough.

I find these ideas, phrased in this simple way, quite apt for this kid, in his situation, and I wouldn't expect such language in a Ned or Davos or even Jon chapter.

And finally, of course, there is what isn't there at all -- namely, any recognition by Bran that Jojen might be asking him about Ned, in context of this tale, for a reason (the knight's possible Stark connection).  That is too sophisticated a concept for Bran and GRRM wisely leaves it out completely.

However, all this is obviously not about the HOTU visions directly, so I'll let it go.

[Melifeather]

46 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Probably worth highlighting the fact that the HOTU chapter is not just a Dany POV chapter.  For the most part it is a "Dany-Under-the-Influence" POV chapter. 

You might call it a "DUI" chapter, for short. 

 

...and from there, she experiences what one can only consider a Bad Trip, with all the accompanying symptoms.  Hallucinations, disorientation, anxiety, panic... dry, nude, ancient half-dead men and women pinching her nipple and sucking her eyeball.  You know, the usual.

It's a third person unlimited perspective... if you're into that sort of thing.

 

So you're saying it's sorta like Ned's fever dream only awake and on hallucinogenics! 

[Brad Stark]

7 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Greyscale has been linked to the water magic performed by the Rhoynish Wizards. Greyscale itself originates from the Rhoyne area. Furthermore, Cold Magic might just be an extension of Water Magic. If so, greyscale among the Wildlings could have been a thing when the Others were created, which is why the Wildlings are so fearful of it. 

 

There is also the thought that the Others can convert Craster's Boys into Popsicles. I theorize that this transformation could be similar to greyscale, but perhaps done with Ice? 

Greyscale is from Rhoyne the way Montezuma's revenge is from Mexico.  We a disease and a myth explaining where it came from, but it is presumptuous to assume the myth really explains everything.

[Frey family reunion]

6 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I would agree, and I'd go so far as to say that even the visions that are depicting real events are meant to be more like fever dream recreation, to embody the spirit of the event, rather than to literally recreate the scene with absolute fidelity.

To use an in-world analogy, I don't feel as though these visions of the past are to be interpreted the same as, say, a weirwood vision of the past--I think they're more akin to Eddard's TOJ dream. 

Your elaboration on the vision of Stannis is a perfect example; I don't think it reads as literally displaying Stannis in a particular moment or as he truly 'is,' but rather, the flourishes of him having no shadow and his sword "glowing like sunset" symbolize certain ideas. So too with most of the other visions, IMO.

I think the fever dream is a little more literal, only because Ned has specific memories of both halves of the dream.  The thing that may not be so literal, is the linking of the two scenes together.  In fact it’s the segue between the two that most resembles the surrealism of Dany’s visions.

[Brad Stark]

Back to the HOTU, what were the warlocks' motivations?  If they knew the future or were trying to help Dany, why consume her that way? If the whole thing was a trick, why show her anything meaningful? 

[Tucu]

The Undying probably need to feed on magical bloodlines; this seems to be another similarity with the weirwoods. These quotes probably explain their actions:

Quote

"When you come to the chamber of the Undying, be patient. Our little lives are no more than a flicker of a moth's wing to them. Listen well, and write each word upon your heart."

Quote

Drogon saved me when they would have drained my life from me. Drogon burned them all.

 

[Janneyc1]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

The Undying probably need to feed on magical bloodlines; this seems to be another similarity with the weirwoods. These quotes probably explain their actions:

I agree, you get added magical power by killing someone that can use magic. Dany has evidence of Skinchanging, prophesy, and has valyrian blood. She would make an ideal person to sacrifice. She should stay away from Mel. 

[Brad Stark]

If the undying planned to sacrifice Dany, why tell her to remember who she is or what she needs to do?  Why would Pyat Pree tell her the correct way in and especially the correct way out?  Why not just tell her what she wants to hear and try to get her lost. 

[Melifeather]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to the HOTU, what were the warlocks' motivations?  If they knew the future or were trying to help Dany, why consume her that way? If the whole thing was a trick, why show her anything meaningful? 

You bring up an interesting point, because Dany's entrance into the HOTU was very similar to Bran's entrance into the Children's cave. The blue drink that allowed Dany to see these past, present, and future visions - was this really all that different from the weirwood paste that wed Bran to the trees and allowed his access to the past, present, and future? The trees are slowly consuming Bloodraven and they will consume Bran in the same way.

3 hours ago, Tucu said:

The Undying probably need to feed on magical bloodlines; this seems to be another similarity with the weirwoods. These quotes probably explain their actions:

 

If Drogon sensed Dany's fear and helped her escape, why didn't Summer do the same and help Bran escape?

[Janneyc1]

30 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

If the undying planned to sacrifice Dany, why tell her to remember who she is or what she needs to do?  Why would Pyat Pree tell her the correct way in and especially the correct way out?  Why not just tell her what she wants to hear and try to get her lost. 

Perhaps the Undying told Pree one thing but meant to do another? Wouldn't be the first time in this series that it has happened. Perhaps they intended to give her knowledge but then got distracted when they saw her? Perhaps the ritual she went through kills all but the most unworthy. Bear in mind that she nearly died again because of that House. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

The blue drink that allowed Dany to see these past, present, and future visions - was this really all that different from the weirwood paste that wed Bran to the trees and allowed his access to the past, present, and future?

So far from all that different, they are remarkably (and IMO deliberately) similar.

Quote

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Quote

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. [Bran] almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought that it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new-fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him.

If you believe, as I do, that the source of Bran's visions is the weirwoods, it follows rather easily what the source of Dany's visions is.  And it's not the Undying.

Quote

Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening

This is why the HOTU was built there in the first place, and why it winds through the trees. 

The builders certainly weren't going to cut the trees down.  The trees were the whole point.

The show, of course, depicts the HOTU as a tower, not a winding serpent, and as usual, gets everything completely wrong and misses all the important subtleties.

[Melifeather]

5 minutes ago, JNR said:

So far from all that different, they are remarkably (and IMO deliberately) similar.

If you believe, as I do, that the source of Bran's visions is the weirwoods, it follows rather easily what the source of Dany's visions is.  And it's not the Undying.

This is why the HOTU was built there in the first place, and why it winds through the trees. 

The builders certainly weren't going to cut the trees down.  The trees were the whole point.

The show, of course, depicts the HOTU as a tower, not a winding serpent, and as usual, gets everything completely wrong and misses all the important subtleties.

It hadn't dawned on me before (about the trees), but since you've pointed it out I'm quite on board.

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Back to the HOTU, what were the warlocks' motivations?  If they knew the future or were trying to help Dany, why consume her that way? If the whole thing was a trick, why show her anything meaningful? 

Bait

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the undying planned to sacrifice Dany, why tell her to remember who she is or what she needs to do?  Why would Pyat Pree tell her the correct way in and especially the correct way out?  Why not just tell her what she wants to hear and try to get her lost. 

The visions were distracting her while she was being fed upon, and would have succeeded if it weren't for Drogon's interference. The most likely explanation is that this was just business as usual for how they feed.

However, there might be some room for additional motives being at play--when they begin going through their "three treasons you will know" routine they may have essentially been operating like Greek oracles, spouting insights that are not their own by the compulsion of the Shade of the Evening, and it may be that the decision to kill (and feed) on Dany was made on the fly, that - like Mirri Maz Duur - they wanted to defy whatever prophesies she might fulfill.