Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, JNR said:

So far from all that different, they are remarkably (and IMO deliberately) similar.

In addition to the similarities in the experience of consuming the acorns and fruit respectively, the trees are aesthetic contrasts--white/red for the weirwood, black/blue for the tree from which Shade of the Evening is taken.

Something I've floated here in the past is that there's an occasional motif in the world of pairing weirwood and ebony - the doors and chairs in the House of Black and White, one of the doors Dany sees in the HOTU - and that the ebony wood being paired with weirwood is taken from the Shade of the Evening Trees.

Just to run with the premise you raise about the HoTU's chosen location, in addition to the Undying seeming so corpse-like and immobile as to be initially mistaken for being dead, we might compare that to the way Bloodraven is described, as well as the other greenseers that Bran sees:

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He even crossed the slender stone bridge that arched over the abyss and discovered more passages and chambers on the far side. One was full of singers, enthroned like Brynden in nests of weirwood roots that wove under and through and around their bodies. Most of them looked dead to him, but as he crossed in front of them their eyes would open and follow the light of his torch, and one of them opened and closed a wrinkled mouth as if he were trying to speak. "Hodor," Bran said to him, and he felt the real Hodor stir down in his pit.

(side note: the text seems to suggest that, even among the CotF, greenseers are rare--a room full of them is certainly interesting; I wonder if this is something that was not that atypical in the days before the CotF's decline, or if they were gathered and enthroned at some point to work a particular bit of great magic)

[Janneyc1]

11 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

(side note: the text seems to suggest that, even among the CotF, greenseers are rare--a room full of them is certainly interesting; I wonder if this is something that was not that atypical in the days before the CotF's decline, or if they were gathered and enthroned at some point to work a particular bit of great magic)

I would imagine that it is quite rare. The CotF haven't really displayed a hierarchy, but the Weiwood cave that we see might just be their Iron Throne. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

30 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

he visions were distracting her while she was being fed upon, and would have succeeded if it weren't for Drogon's interference. The most likely explanation is that this was just business as usual for how they feed.

But were the Undying really there?  Or were they just part of the vision(s)?

[Janneyc1]

25 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

But were the Undying really there?  Or were they just part of the vision(s)?

They had real reactions when Drogon burned them, so I would think that they were actually there. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

45 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

They had real reactions when Drogon burned them, so I would think that they were actually there. 

This bit, right?:

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...heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot.  She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

Dany pushed herself to her feet and bulled through them. They were light as air, no more than husks, and they fell at a touch...

Lots of interesting stuff going on there.  Was their flesh actually "crumbling parchment?"  Their bones literally "dry wood soaked in tallow?"

Does Drogon flame the Undying... or does he flame the rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  For some reason I always read that as if he'd flamed the heart, and then the Undying burst into flame.  But I see that's not clear.

Hold on a minute. Is there actually a rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  Surely that, at least, is a drug-induced hallucination.  

If the Undying were real... wouldn't Dany have some fairly serious injuries given that, just before she fled, "teeth found the soft skin of her throat," and "a mouth descended on [her] eye, licking, sucking, biting?"

[Tucu]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

You bring up an interesting point, because Dany's entrance into the HOTU was very similar to Bran's entrance into the Children's cave. The blue drink that allowed Dany to see these past, present, and future visions - was this really all that different from the weirwood paste that wed Bran to the trees and allowed his access to the past, present, and future? The trees are slowly consuming Bloodraven and they will consume Bran in the same way.

If Drogon sensed Dany's fear and helped her escape, why didn't Summer do the same and help Bran escape?

I think that the main difference between the Undying and the wierwoods is the duration of the relationship. The weirwood/greenseer link is longer term and more akin to symbiosis; both sides feed from each other and prolong their lives. The Undying used the shade of the evening as preparation for a feast (I like to see it as a magical tenderizer).

 

[Tucu]

14 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

This bit, right?:

Lots of interesting stuff going on there.  Was their flesh actually "crumbling parchment?"  Their bones literally "dry wood soaked in tallow?"

Does Drogon flame the Undying... or does he flame the rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  For some reason I always read that as if he'd flamed the heart, and then the Undying burst into flame.  But I see that's not clear.

Hold on a minute. Is there actually a rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  Surely that, at least, is a drug-induced hallucination.  

If the Undying were real... wouldn't Dany have some fairly serious injuries given that, just before she fled, "teeth found the soft skin of her throat," and "a mouth descended on [her] eye, licking, sucking, biting?"

I think that the floating rotten heart was real and Drogon realised that it was the main control centre. I suspect that somewhere below the Nightfort there is the heart of Brandon the Builder  floating but frozen instead of rotting. This would complete the similarities between the House of the Undying and the Black Gate/CoTF combo.

The mummy-like Undying are probably more like shadows with minor physical existence. Something like a weak WW. This bit reminds me of the shadows dancing in Mirri's tent:

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They danced as the flames consumed them, they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

 

[Black Crow]

Mind you, if we want to parallel the house of the Undying with the Cave of Skulls, what does that tell us of the denizens of the latter? We have after all discussed whether the three-fingered tree huggers are really as cuddly as they seem. The HotU episode might be a warning.

[Tucu]

The CoTF don't seem very cuddly to me. More like a well balanced group of apex predators (so many bones inside that cave). Too close to nature to be good or evil. Somehow they remind me of the river and the jungle in the film Aguirre, the Wrath of God

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Hold on a minute. Is there actually a rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  Surely that, at least, is a drug-induced hallucination.

While I'm inclined to agree, is it that much stranger than the Black Gate that Bran and company pass through?

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

is it that much stranger than the Black Gate that Bran and company pass through?

Not really.  But we know Dany licked the acid stamp, earlier in the HotU chapter. And she's the only witness we have to anything that happened inside the House.  In contrast, we have at least two POV characters who passed through the Black Gate... and six people who used it to move from one side of the Wall to the other.

Honestly, I think that glass of prune juice turns Dany's HotU experience into something closer to Bran's 3EC dream, way back in AGOT.  Dream / fever dream / altered consciousness / what have you.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

But we know Dany licked the acid stamp, earlier in the HotU chapter. 

And we also know Sam, Bran, Jojen, Hodor, and Meera did not consume any such thing at the time they went through the Black Gate, and furthermore, that they did in fact wind up on the north side of the Wall.   So there clearly is, objectively, some sort of secret means to get through the Wall at the Nightfort and they used it.

Dany's situation is much harder to verify.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

17 minutes ago, JNR said:

So there clearly is, objectively, some sort of secret means to get through the Wall at the Nightfort and they used it.

Dany's situation is much harder to verify.

Ironically, while harder to verify, Dany’s experience seems easier to explain.  

Ancient animated tree faces that speak the Common tongue seem extremely far fetched.  Even if six sober witnesses agree one actually exists at the bottom of a well several abandoned castles down the path. 

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Anyway. Assuming Dany’s visions do bear some relevance to the overall story... and glossing over obvious difficulties in connecting her narrative to various others allegedly depicted in said visions... 

I’ll take Bran Stark as the great stone beast taking wing from the smoking tower.

[Melifeather]

11 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Anyway. Assuming Dany’s visions do bear some relevance to the overall story... and glossing over obvious difficulties in connecting her narrative to various others allegedly depicted in said visions... 

I’ll take Bran Stark as the great stone beast taking wing from the smoking tower.

Would you say his chains are broken then? I'm wondering if Jojen's greendream of a chained wolf was of the future and not of the present. It would appear that he's brought Bran to the cave of skulls to become chained.

[JNR]

13 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

Ancient animated tree faces that speak the Common tongue seem extremely far fetched.

Well, we don't really have much frame of reference on the magic system of this world.

It also seems far-fetched that Dany would somehow manage to hatch dragon eggs after Targs had constantly tried, and constantly failed, for 150 years -- no instruction manual, no sage mentor guiding her, no apparent help of any sort.  But she did.

I've also always suspected that GRRM never really thought about the Common aspect and might find that a bit difficult to explain if asked. 

[JNR]

18 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Mind you, if we want to parallel the house of the Undying with the Cave of Skulls, what does that tell us of the denizens of the latter? We have after all discussed whether the three-fingered tree huggers are really as cuddly as they seem. The HotU episode might be a warning.

That parallel does suggest itself; one can perceive them both as inviting in a target, seducing the target with fascinating visions, and then trapping the target.

However, the Undying (assuming they exist) appear to have originated as ordinary humans, and the CotF are just... not.  It's difficult to map our species onto a completely different species, psychologically speaking, and then guess at their motives.  What appears to be eerie symbolism to us (a huge collection of skulls) could easily mean something quite different to them.

Since we're the only sapient species in our world, and apparently have been since the death of the Neanderthals some forty thousand years back, we don't ever normally have to ponder such questions.  It must be fun for GRRM to think about in writing the series, though.

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She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

We can read this as we like.  I think Bran is right, though, and they are simply sad.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Would you say his chains are broken then?

I'd think so, yes.  Here's Jojen's dream:

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"I dreamed of a winged wolf bound to earth with grey stone chains... It was a green dream, so I knew it was true. A crow was trying to peck through the chains, but the stone was too hard and his beak could only chip at them."

I'd say the "grey stone chains" represent Winterfell... or, more specifically, Bran's relationship of duty/responsibility to Winterfell: the duty to remain as "the Stark" in situ.  

Actually, one could trace a chain of custody for that role through AGOT and ACOK.  Ned to Catelyn, Catelyn to Robb, Robb to Bran, etc.... they all offer some version of the statement: "Your place is here, because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

But when Bran finally leaves, the world believes him dead, and Winterfell itself is broken.  Here's Bran's parting thought, as he begins his trek away from the castle:

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...the tops of the keeps and towers still stood as they had for hundreds of years, and it was hard to tell that the castle had been sacked and burned at all. The stone is strong, Bran told himself, the roots of the trees go deep, and under the ground the Kings of Winter sit their thrones. So long as those remained, Winterfell remained. It was not dead, just broken. Like me, he thought. I'm not dead either.

Apparently, that frees him up.  No duty to remain in broken castles. So Bran gets the hell outta there.  He takes flight, if you will.

[SirArthur]

22 minutes ago, JNR said:

I've also always suspected that GRRM never really thought about the Common aspect and might find that a bit difficult to explain if asked. 

GRRM thinks of himself as not being very gifted with languages (https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1250/)

Tolkien was a philologist, and an Oxford don, and could spend decades laboriously inventing Elvish in all its detail. I, alas, am only a hardworking SF and fantasy novel, and I don't have his gift for languages. That is to say, I have not actually created a Valyrian language. The best I could do was try to sketch in each of the chief tongues of my imaginary world in broad strokes, and give them each their characteristic sounds and spellings.

My assumption would be that everything in Essos uses some form of Valyrian unless stated otherways. And I highly doubt Daenerys would understand every Valyrian dialect or slang. And not be able to speak any of them.   

[Janneyc1]

23 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, we don't really have much frame of reference on the magic system of this world.

I have been working to piece together how it might work. A magic system needs to have rules and GRRM seems to give us a few throughout the series:

1. "There is Power in King's Blood" 

2. "Power requires sacrifice". 

I have also chosen to assume that the religions that we see that perform magic are performing real magic, not gifts from their Gods. Another assumption is that all examples of magic are related to each other. 

Given these assumptions, I looked into how the different magic users use their magic. All involve sacrificing something to get their magic abilities. I think Bran sacrificed his life to get his power. Dany sacrificed Mirri, Drogo and maybe their kid to get her dragons. Mel is constantly sacrificing. Etc. Etc. Etc. You need to sacrifice to get magic. 

This leads me to the value of the sacrifice. Mel makes us think that it is the blood of a king that makes someone powerful, but I don't think so. I think it stems from bloodlines. More specifically, descendants of Garth Greenhand and descendants of the Great Emperors of the Dawn. The blood that runs through their veins gives them the ability to access magic, which I think is similar to ley lines beneath the surface of the planet.