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Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust


Black Crow

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13 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

GRRM thinks of himself as not being very gifted with languages

Right.  However, I didn't mean in developing Common (which is just rendered as English in the books).

I mean that the Black Gate was (according to Sam anyway) created at a time when the spoken language was the Old Tongue.  Long before the Andals brought Common to Westeros. 

And then, thousands of years after it was forgotten, it was still able to ask Sam Tarly "Who are you?" in Common. 

A bit awkward... but then if we're going to imagine a magic weirwood gate that has a moving face and that can talk and hear answers and analyze them for accuracy and take action as a result (opening or not opening), the fact that it can do this in an inappropriate language is a minor point.

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33 minutes ago, JNR said:

Right.  However, I didn't mean in developing Common (which is just rendered as English in the books).

A lot of things in Martin's world are very static with unrealistic long time periods. At least for me it is unclear if this is part of the theme or not. 

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We shouldn't forget that Coldhands is also present at the Black Gate.  It seems to be that he acts as a gatekeeper and that his presence is necessary for the Gate to appear.  He may be a manifestation or aspect of the Gate itself.

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25 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

A lot of things in Martin's world are very static with unrealistic long time periods. At least for me it is unclear if this is part of the theme or not. 

Well, the problem of the Black Gate is the opposite: that it apparently somehow learned Common and started speaking Common, even though it was created thousands of years before Common existed at all in Westeros.  Instead of being too static, it is too dynamic.

I usually choose to look the other way about logical shortcomings like this... another example being that if Winterfell sits on a pressurized water table and hence hot water flows through its walls, the crypts should be underwater.  

(Perhaps Bran the Builder was a certified builder who was so ultra-skilled, he could waterproof the crypts.)

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21 minutes ago, JNR said:

Well, the problem of the Black Gate is the opposite: that it apparently somehow learned Common and started speaking Common, even though it was created thousands of years before Common existed at all in Westeros.  Instead of being too static, it is too dynamic.

At least in my mind the Black Gate is a living being and can have new experiences, e.g. pick up Andal spoken in the Nightfort. Dany's vision in the House of the Undying is another matter. Do we know for sure it is in Common and not in Valyrian ?

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17 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

At least in my mind the Black Gate is a living being and can have new experiences, e.g. pick up Andal spoken in the Nightfort. Dany's vision in the House of the Undying is another matter. Do we know for sure it is in Common and not in Valyrian ?

After Drogon attacks the heart, the Undying switch to multiple dead languages. Maybe Drogon broke the link that allowed Dany (or the narrator) to understand them:

Quote

She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead.

 

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1 hour ago, Janneyc1 said:

I have also chosen to assume that the religions that we see that perform magic are performing real magic, not gifts from their Gods. Another assumption is that all examples of magic are related to each other. 

Inasmuch as there are any rules at all to the magic, I think this is closest to the truth; on Planetos, sacrifice seems to occasionally yield magical results, and that fact, in turn, appears to shape superstitions. eg,--burn people, and you'll be blessed by the fire god.

I dare not go any deeper than that though, as Martin's philosophy on writing magic is pretty dissimilar to the approach that has become more pervasive in genre pulp, where magic functions more like a fictional science, with well established rules.

He elaborated on this in an interview he did with the Russian edition of Esquire, saying that he wants the 'supernatural' to be distinct from the natural in that regard--that there is no recipe or book an in-world character can follow to get predictable results, that his magic by design will suddenly work (or fail), that it is always dangerous to utilize. 

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1 hour ago, SirArthur said:

At least in my mind the Black Gate is a living being and can have new experiences, e.g. pick up Andal spoken in the Nightfort.

The most likely answer is that GRRM never once paused and thought "why does the Black Gate speak Common," but as your example highlights, this seems like an extremely minor thing in terms of suspension of disbelief--like, it doesn't take much imagination here on the reader's part to apply some head canon.

If someone really needed a reason, then perhaps the Black Gate has interacted with Andalized individuals, or perhaps it can 'know' anything that weirnet knows, or perhaps it is just inherent to its magic as a gatekeeper that it can operate as a universal translator and communicator, that it follows Babel fish rules. 

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45 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

The most likely answer is that GRRM never once paused and thought "why does the Black Gate speak Common," but as your example highlights, this seems like an extremely minor thing in terms of suspension of disbelief--like, it doesn't take much imagination here on the reader's part to apply some head canon.

If someone really needed a reason, then perhaps the Black Gate has interacted with Andalized individuals, or perhaps it can 'know' anything that weirnet knows, or perhaps it is just inherent to its magic as a gatekeeper that it can operate as a universal translator and communicator, that it follows Babel fish rules. 

There is a simple way to rationalise this in that it may all be in their heads, ie; because their native tongue is the Common one they think they are hearing it.

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6 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There is a simple way to rationalise this in that it may all be in their heads, ie; because their native tongue is the Common one they think they are hearing it.

It would be interesting to know if native High Valyrian speaker Daenerys would hear something else in the same vision. We had the translation discussion before.

In a thought experiment, would Dany hear and see prince or dragon when it comes to visions ? Let's talk about the prince in the black armor. Is it the same experience for a Valyrian as for a Commoner or an Old Tonguer ?

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5 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

There is a simple way to rationalise this in that it may all be in their heads, ie; because their native tongue is the Common one they think they are hearing it.

So when the Black Gate's face forms words, its mouth isn't actually making sounds? And those words aren't literally being heard, but instead it's telepathy? 

I mean, anything's possible in this area.  For me, the premise that GRRM just didn't think this bit through particularly well works best.  I'd be interested to hear his explanation if someone dropped the question to him at a convention, just to see if he had something ready, or if it was obviously sheer improv on his part in that moment.

For that matter, the original purpose of the Black Gate seems quite a debatable matter.  The old Heretical premise that at one time it was the only way across the Wall never satisfied me.

16 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

You never met my old mate Tony, then.

True, but on this side of the pond we have this president...

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5 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

In a thought experiment, would Dany hear and see prince or dragon when it comes to visions ? Let's talk about the prince in the black armor. Is it the same experience for a Valyrian as for a Commoner or an Old Tonguer ?

Notice that in the vision of Rhaegar and Elia, she does hear them speak, and they were almost certainly speaking Common in that time and place (if the vision is an accurate one of the past).

And in these books, at least in the original versions written by GRRM, Common = English.  So I think she hears the visions in the true and original language, as opposed to any kind of subtle translation taking place.

If she saw a vision of a Red priest lecturing a crowd in Valyrian, I would expect her to notice immediately that it was Valyrian and if we were given any of the words, I would expect them to be Valyrian words.  And since she knows Valyrian I would also expect her to understand what was said.

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3 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, we don't really have much frame of reference on the magic system of this world.

It also seems far-fetched that Dany would somehow manage to hatch dragon eggs after Targs had constantly tried, and constantly failed, for 150 years -- no instruction manual, no sage mentor guiding her, no apparent help of any sort.  But she did.

I've also always suspected that GRRM never really thought about the Common aspect and might find that a bit difficult to explain if asked.  :D

That she successfully managed to hatch dragons could be considered evidence that Bran could have hatched the white walkers - or at least someone else if they also were trained to become a greenseer, which I suspect Euron at one time was. Although Euron also claims he drank the same blue liquid Dany did and managed to obtain a barrel of it, which he continues to drink from. Why drink it if there's no access to the black barked trees? Maybe unlike the weirwoods you don't have to be physically connected to them?

3 hours ago, JNR said:

That parallel does suggest itself; one can perceive them both as inviting in a target, seducing the target with fascinating visions, and then trapping the target.

However, the Undying (assuming they exist) appear to have originated as ordinary humans, and the CotF are just... not.  It's difficult to map our species onto a completely different species, psychologically speaking, and then guess at their motives.  What appears to be eerie symbolism to us (a huge collection of skulls) could easily mean something quite different to them.

Since we're the only sapient species in our world, and apparently have been since the death of the Neanderthals some forty thousand years back, we don't ever normally have to ponder such questions.  It must be fun for GRRM to think about in writing the series, though.

We can read this as we like.  I think Bran is right, though, and they are simply sad.

While the books do have many parallels there are also lots of examples of inversions, and this may be one of them. Instead of trying to trap Bran they want him to stay of his own free will and help them. Exactly as Leaf would have us believe.

3 hours ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I'd think so, yes.  Here's Jojen's dream:

I'd say the "grey stone chains" represent Winterfell... or, more specifically, Bran's relationship of duty/responsibility to Winterfell: the duty to remain as "the Stark" in situ.  

Actually, one could trace a chain of custody for that role through AGOT and ACOK.  Ned to Catelyn, Catelyn to Robb, Robb to Bran, etc.... they all offer some version of the statement: "Your place is here, because there must always be a Stark in Winterfell."

But when Bran finally leaves, the world believes him dead, and Winterfell itself is broken.  Here's Bran's parting thought, as he begins his trek away from the castle:

Apparently, that frees him up.  No duty to remain in broken castles. So Bran gets the hell outta there.  He takes flight, if you will.

Funny you should mention the color "grey", because it's also a color associated with maesters, as in Lady Barbary calling them "grey rats". 

I have brought up the idea before that Rickard Stark may have converted to the Faith of the Seven and became a knight, going so far as to also wanting his sons to become knights by sending Ned at the age of eight to Jon Arryn to be his squire along side Robert Baratheon, and then securing a marriage alliance with the Tullys - another southern house that practices the Faith and knighthood - when Brandon was around 12 years old. Being that this is a full six or more years before the Rebellion, his actions don't appear to be connected to some secret conspiracy, but rather of a man that earned his spurs after being influenced by the grey rat, Maester Walys. This is actually what I have come to believe is the real meaning of "southron ambitions". Rickard adopted Andal ways. 

I believe Bran's desire to become a knight was part of Maester Luwin's influence, but Jojen and Meera were sent to put a stop to that and broke the "grey" chains of the Faith.

3 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

I have been working to piece together how it might work. A magic system needs to have rules and GRRM seems to give us a few throughout the series:

1. "There is Power in King's Blood" 

2. "Power requires sacrifice". 

I have also chosen to assume that the religions that we see that perform magic are performing real magic, not gifts from their Gods. Another assumption is that all examples of magic are related to each other. 

Given these assumptions, I looked into how the different magic users use their magic. All involve sacrificing something to get their magic abilities. I think Bran sacrificed his life to get his power. Dany sacrificed Mirri, Drogo and maybe their kid to get her dragons. Mel is constantly sacrificing. Etc. Etc. Etc. You need to sacrifice to get magic. 

This leads me to the value of the sacrifice. Mel makes us think that it is the blood of a king that makes someone powerful, but I don't think so. I think it stems from bloodlines. More specifically, descendants of Garth Greenhand and descendants of the Great Emperors of the Dawn. The blood that runs through their veins gives them the ability to access magic, which I think is similar to ley lines beneath the surface of the planet. 

Dany proved that it is important to kill first the father and then the son so that both die as kings as being important to the dragon egg hatching ritual. Then you have to burn the woods witch/priestess in their funeral pyre. This is the recipe when working with fire.

There aren't four or more kinds of magic. Magic is magic. The only difference is the recipe used to get different results, but there is a commonality and that is sacrifice. Death is required to pay for the different sort of life.

3 hours ago, JNR said:

Right.  However, I didn't mean in developing Common (which is just rendered as English in the books).

I mean that the Black Gate was (according to Sam anyway) created at a time when the spoken language was the Old Tongue.  Long before the Andals brought Common to Westeros. 

And then, thousands of years after it was forgotten, it was still able to ask Sam Tarly "Who are you?" in Common. 

A bit awkward... but then if we're going to imagine a magic weirwood gate that has a moving face and that can talk and hear answers and analyze them for accuracy and take action as a result (opening or not opening), the fact that it can do this in an inappropriate language is a minor point.

It does appear that the Black Gate is new enough to have been installed when the Common Tongue was adopted, which hints towards an Andal takeover - a theory much discussed under the Heresy umbrella.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, the problem of the Black Gate is the opposite: that it apparently somehow learned Common and started speaking Common, even though it was created thousands of years before Common existed at all in Westeros.  Instead of being too static, it is too dynamic.

I usually choose to look the other way about logical shortcomings like this... another example being that if Winterfell sits on a pressurized water table and hence hot water flows through its walls, the crypts should be underwater.  

(Perhaps Bran the Builder was a certified builder who was so ultra-skilled, he could waterproof the crypts.)

Yes, it would appear Winterfell is warded against water.

57 minutes ago, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

I theorize that "Bran the Builder" is a misnomer.  

The great revelation at the end of this series is that Bran was a Plumber.

I'm thinking your intention was to be humorous here, but IMO you are closer to the truth than you've imagined.

Throughout the mythological stories of the past "water" has been weaponized and used in wards. It was the first weapon the Children used to discourage the First Men migration when they called down their hammer - breaking the Arm of Dorne, flooding the Neck, and perhaps creating the Iron Islands.

The second use of water was to ward against air - the Storm God - and protect the humans that were now experimenting with magic at Storm's End. Elenei was just an analog to describe how man took magic to "wife". Winterfell too, has been warded against water, as JNR has pointed out - the crypts should be filled with water.

The third use of water was the bringing about of an extended winter - which froze the water.

The fourth use of water was to introduce air into the recipe to create white walkers.

The fifth use of water, now paired with air, was to create the Wall.

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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Dany proved that it is important to kill first the father and then the son so that both die as kings as being important to the dragon egg hatching ritual. Then you have to burn the woods witch/priestess in their funeral pyre. This is the recipe when working with fire.

There aren't four or more kinds of magic. Magic is magic. The only difference is the recipe used to get different results, but there is a commonality and that is sacrifice. Death is required to pay for the different sort of life.

Just pointing out that Rhaego died before Drogo did. Rhaego was dead when before Dany woke up fro childbirth. 

 

On the magic, we are in agreement. I tend to view it as electricity but recipes work as well. 

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1 minute ago, Janneyc1 said:

Just pointing out that Rhaego died before Drogo did. Rhaego was dead when before Dany woke up fro childbirth. 

 

On the magic, we are in agreement. I tend to view it as electricity but recipes work as well. 

Did he? I think you're thinking of Mirri's resurrection causing Rhaego's death and that Dany smothered him after? He was already dead or dying of corruption. If he wasn't already dead, why would she need to "bring him back"?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think technically Drogo was dead, then resurrected, then killed a second time. Maybe they just need to die together?

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