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Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust


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1 minute ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think technically Drogo was dead, then resurrected, then killed a second time. Maybe they just need to die together?

I don't even think that it matters whether or not you die a king. It's about the bloodline, not the title. 

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16 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I don't even think that it matters whether or not you die a king. It's about the bloodline, not the title. 

I don’t think so, because the Targaryens were only one family that were dragonlords. Many other Valyrians successfully hatched dragon eggs.

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3 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I don’t think so, because the Targaryens were only one family that were dragonlords. Many other Valyrians successfully hatched dragon eggs

I suspect that the Valyrians in general had the bloodlines to access magic. The fact that multiple families could hatch dragons indicates that they were closer to magic than other groups, such as the Dothraki or the Andals. 

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8 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I suspect that the Valyrians in general had the bloodlines to access magic. The fact that multiple families could hatch dragons indicates that they were closer to magic than other groups, such as the Dothraki or the Andals. 

I don't think so. Just like with Dragonstone, I believe the source were the vulcanoes. 

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1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think technically Drogo was dead, then resurrected, then killed a second time.

Well, the text reads:

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"The time for that is past, my lady," Mirri said. "All I can do now is ease the dark road before him, so he might ride painless to the night lands. He will be gone by morning."

Her words were a knife through Dany's breast. What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel? She had finally found a safe place, had finally tasted love and hope. She was finally going home. And now to lose it all … "No," she pleaded. "Save him, and I will free you, I swear it. You must know a way … some magic, some …"

Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heels and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." Her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner."

 

I think it's pretty clear he was dying, Dany couldn't bear it, and thus she asked MMD to do her spell.  

In which case, she did her spell, Rhaego died, and after Dany woke up, Drogo did not die until Dany killed him.

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On 1/17/2019 at 1:55 PM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

This bit, right?:

Lots of interesting stuff going on there.  Was their flesh actually "crumbling parchment?"  Their bones literally "dry wood soaked in tallow?"

Does Drogon flame the Undying... or does he flame the rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  For some reason I always read that as if he'd flamed the heart, and then the Undying burst into flame.  But I see that's not clear.

Hold on a minute. Is there actually a rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  Surely that, at least, is a drug-induced hallucination.  

If the Undying were real... wouldn't Dany have some fairly serious injuries given that, just before she fled, "teeth found the soft skin of her throat," and "a mouth descended on [her] eye, licking, sucking, biting?"

It just kind of occurred to me that the imagery of the burning of the undying, might be an intentional parallel to another burning of a place of learning, the Winterfell library.

”Crumbling parchment”, certainly parallels the burning of a book, and the imagery of wood soaked in tallow, makes me think of a tallow candle melting into the wooden table in a library.

And after the Winterfell library catches on fire, a knife wielding assassin appears to kill Bran.  After the House of the Undying catches fire, a knife wielding Pyat Pree tries to kill Dany.

 

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On 1/18/2019 at 1:57 PM, Feather Crystal said:

Did he? I think you're thinking of Mirri's resurrection causing Rhaego's death and that Dany smothered him after? He was already dead or dying of corruption. If he wasn't already dead, why would she need to "bring him back"?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs, but I think technically Drogo was dead, then resurrected, then killed a second time. Maybe they just need to die together?

There is a very real possibility that the blood ritual transferred the spirit of Rhaego into Drogo.  Remember when Dany ate the heart of the stallion, her son was declared to be the Stallion that Mounts the World.  And the Stallion imagery continued with Rhaego right up to the time of the blood tent ceremony:

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Rhaego was restless in her belly, kicking like a stallion, yet even that did not stir Drogo’s interest as it had.

Dany thinks back, that when she ate the heart of the stallion, the strength and courage of the stallion went into her son:

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“I am khaleesi, and I say it is not forbidden. In Vaes Dothrak, Khal Drogo slew a stallion and I ate his heart, to give our son strength and courage. This is the same. The same.”

Then in the blood tent ritual, the parallels between the stallion and Rhaego continued:

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The stallion kicked and reared as Rakharo, Quaro, and Aggo pulled him close to the tub where the khal floated like one already dead, pus and blood seeping from his wound to stain the bathwaters.

And like Dany transferred the strength of the stallion to her son when she ate the Stallion’s heart, Mirri is transferring the strength of the stallion into Drogo:

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Strength of the mount, go into the rider,” Mirri sang as horse blood swirled into the waters of Drogo’s bath. “Strength of the beast, go into the man.”

So, I’m interested to know whether Mirri was trying to transfer the strength of the “stallion” into Drogo, or all along was she transferring the strength of the “stallion that mounts the world” into Drogo.

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On 1/15/2019 at 8:18 PM, Frey family reunion said:

I tend to agree.  At this portion of her vision quest, many of the images appear to be less literal than the images she received earlier.  

My gut instinct is that the image may refer to Tyrion Lannister.  A stone beast flying from a tower evokes a stone gargoyle come to life.  And there have been a number of images linking to Tyrion to a gargoyle.  However, Tyrion has never been described as a “beast” in the story, or even “beastly”.

 We’ve had a wide variety of critters throughout the series that have been described as beasts.  And while the dragons have been referred to as such, the animals that has been most commonly referred to as beasts are actually the direwolves.  

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“The maester stood on the windswept balcony outside his chambers. It was here the ravens came, after long flight. Their droppings speckled the gargoyles that rose twelve feet tall on either side of him, a hellhound and a wyvern, two of the thousand that brooded over the walls of the ancient fortress. When first he came to Dragonstone, the army of stone grotesques had made him uneasy, but as the years passed he had grown used to them. Now he thought of them as old friends. The three of them watched the sky together with foreboding.”

- Prologue, ACOK

Hellhound/wyvern are types of gargoyles that could be seen as wolf/dragon. The omens that comet=dragons and dragons=bad are everywhere in Clash. The gargoyles are more positive though, since they're watching the sky "with foreboding" and Cressen describes them as "friends."

There's also the fact that 2 of the 3 the last stanzas for daughter of death, slayer of lies, and bride of fire relate to a Stark: the woman's name and the blue flower. So as the last stanza in that paragraph, the great stone beast could be Jon, who is a hybrid beast, a half wolf/half dragon (mix of shadow and fire, light and dark, that make grey). I agree that there are many clues that point to Jon as a beast (probably BATB clues too, switching from beast to prince). As far as slayer of lies goes, I think that Jon might be lying to Dany about his intentions and that's why she tries to kill him.

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1 hour ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

So as the last stanza in that paragraph, the great stone beast could be Jon, who is a hybrid beast, a half wolf/half dragon (mix of shadow and fire, light and dark, that make grey). I agree that there are many clues that point to Jon as a beast (probably BATB clues too, switching from beast to prince). As far as slayer of lies goes, I think that Jon might be lying to Dany about his intentions and that's why she tries to kill him.

This is all "mark of the beast" I could find and for me it reads like skinchanging a direwolf. Also the mark of the beast seems to be some Dance idea , it is not used before in any reference. The last one is the only one not directly referring to a direwolf. However it is unclear what Slynt speaks about. The source is two times Slynt and one time Frey. Hardly anyone I would use as hard evidence.

 

The enormity of the lie made Davos gasp. "Is it your claim that Robb Stark killed Wendel Manderly?" he asked the Frey.

"And many more. Mine own son Tytos was amongst them, and my daughter's husband. When Stark changed into a wolf, his northmen did the same. The mark of the beast was on them all. Wargs birth other wargs with a bite, it is well-known. It was all my brothers and I could do to put them down before they slew us all."

The man was smirking as he told the tale. Davos wanted to peel his lips off with a knife. "Ser, may I have your name?"

(Dance-Davos III)

-----

Dolorous Edd took hold of Slynt by one arm, Iron Emmett by the other. Together they hauled him from the bench. "No," Lord Janos protested, flecks of porridge spraying from his lips. "No, unhand me. He's just a boy, a bastard. His father was a traitor. The mark of the beast is on him, that wolf of his … Let go of me! You will rue the day you laid hands on Janos Slynt. I have friends in King's Landing. I warn you—" He was still protesting as they half-marched, half-dragged him up the steps.

(Dance-Jon III)

-----

"Lord Janos," Jon said, "I will give you one last chance. Put down that spoon and get to the stables. I have had your horse saddled and bridled. It is a long, hard road to Greyguard."

"Then you had best be on your way, boy." Slynt laughed, dribbling porridge down his chest. "Greyguard's a good place for the likes of you, I'm thinking. Well away from decent godly folk. The mark of the beast is on you, bastard."

(Dance-Jon II)

 

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51 minutes ago, SirArthur said:

This is all "mark of the beast" I could find and for me it reads like skinchanging a direwolf. Also the mark of the beast seems to be some Dance idea , it is not used before in any reference. The last one is the only one not directly referring to a direwolf. However it is unclear what Slynt speaks about. The source is two times Slynt and one time Frey. Hardly anyone I would use as hard evidence.

 

I would add Varamyr too, who hates Jon and calls him a beastling boy. It's not that Jon is literally a beast, its that people are threatened by him. With the "enemy side" saying this, it could point to him being a negative character in Dany's story, or how she would perceive him - as an opponent. She might think she has to play hero and slay the beast. 

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18 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

There is a very real possibility that the blood ritual transferred the spirit of Rhaego into Drogo.  Remember when Dany ate the heart of the stallion, her son was declared to be the Stallion that Mounts the World.  And the Stallion imagery continued with Rhaego right up to the time of the blood tent ceremony:

Dany thinks back, that when she ate the heart of the stallion, the strength and courage of the stallion went into her son:

Then in the blood tent ritual, the parallels between the stallion and Rhaego continued:

And like Dany transferred the strength of the stallion to her son when she ate the Stallion’s heart, Mirri is transferring the strength of the stallion into Drogo:

So, I’m interested to know whether Mirri was trying to transfer the strength of the “stallion” into Drogo, or all along was she transferring the strength of the “stallion that mounts the world” into Drogo.

It's an interesting theory and would help with the father and son dying in sequential order or at least at the same time.

When Drogo is "saved" through the tent ritual he was in a zombie-like state. It was if he wasn't really alive nor was he really dead, but he also wasn't animated like Coldhands or Lady Stoneheart.

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37 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

It's an interesting theory and would help with the father and son dying in sequential order or at least at the same time

Honest question: why does it matter about the order that they died in? I don't think that the title of King gives you extra power. 

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11 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

Honest question: why does it matter about the order that they died in? I don't think that the title of King gives you extra power. 

There is a quote than sounds like a prophecy/recipe for waking dragons:

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Burning dead children had ceased to trouble Jon Snow; live ones were another matter. Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen's men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. "There is power in a king's blood," the old maester had warned, "and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this."

Might be a bit cargo cultish, but there is probably some link to the actual magical process.

I think Aemon is also referencing his family when he talks of "better men", maybe Aegon V and/or Rhaegar.

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11 minutes ago, Tucu said:

Might be a bit cargo cultish, but there is probably some link to the actual magical process.

I think Aemon is also referencing his family when he talks of "better men", maybe Aegon V and/or Rhaegar.

IDK, to me this sounds like the double edged sword that we know prophesy can be. 

 

Also agreed that Aemon is talking about his family here. 

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2 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

Honest question: why does it matter about the order that they died in? I don't think that the title of King gives you extra power. 

Ninja'd by Tucu, but exactly what I would have said.

There does seem to be a "recipe" for hatching dragon eggs. The Targaryens once knew the secrets of the dragonlords and built Maegor's Holdfast and the Red Keep with secret passages in order to contain those secrets. Some of the ingredients have popped up separately from each other, such as the power of kings blood and that two kings are required to wake the dragon.

King Aegon V had both Prince Aerys II and a pregnant Rhaella at Summerhal when the tragedy occurred. Aerys II, Rhaella, and newborn Rhaegar survived, but King Aegon V, Prince Duncan, Ser Duncan, and likely Jenny of Oldstones, did not. They perished in the flames. King Aegon V believed if he could hatch dragon eggs that he could bring lasting peace to the realm.

Looking at the list of people in attendance and comparing them to what worked for Dany, it does look like Aegon intended for Aerys II, Rhaella, and Rhaegar to be part of the ritual, only instead of sacrificing Aerys II and Rhaegar, he sacrificed himself and his son, Duncan. Perhaps Aerys II was safe, because he wasn't in the direct line of inheritance, because after the tragedy Jaehaerys became king. It does suggest, however, that Jenny of Oldstones was perhaps pregnant when she died.

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Clearly there wasn't 2 Kings sacrificed for every dragon born.  Every Targaryen was given a dragon egg and we had 20 or so dragons at the beginning of the dance.  After that, the eggs stopped hatching, with implications that a King who saw his mother eaten by a dragon and/or the maesters did something.  FOB also hints that the eggs need heat to hatch and turn to stone without it.  So there could be something simple, like not letting the eggs cool before placing them in the cribs, that was deliberately violated.  But I don't see an elaborate ritual for restoring the eggs - it is possible fire was the only thing Dany needed and burning Mirri Maz Duur, Rhaego and Drogo was no better than burning firewood would have been. 

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We can't be sure if we are looking at pieces of an old Valyrian "in case of emergency" procedure or if the Targs were trying to fulfill a prophecy from a vision (say from Signs and Portents). Or even if it is a cyclical event that has happened in the past and will happen again.

Summerhal, Dany's ritual and Mel's ideas share several elements that point towards a shared idea: stone dragons, red comet, a lot of fire, blood magic, death/sacrifice of a father and a child. Even shadows if we count Duncan as a white shadow.

 

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1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Clearly there wasn't 2 Kings sacrificed for every dragon born.  Every Targaryen was given a dragon egg and we had 20 or so dragons at the beginning of the dance.  After that, the eggs stopped hatching, with implications that a King who saw his mother eaten by a dragon and/or the maesters did something.  FOB also hints that the eggs need heat to hatch and turn to stone without it.  So there could be something simple, like not letting the eggs cool before placing them in the cribs, that was deliberately violated.  But I don't see an elaborate ritual for restoring the eggs - it is possible fire was the only thing Dany needed and burning Mirri Maz Duur, Rhaego and Drogo was no better than burning firewood would have been. 

How can you be so confident that two kings weren't sacrificed for every dragon born? It's not like there ever was very many of them at one time. 

I think bastard children became more commonly sacrificed and were referred to as "dragonseed". What is a seed if not to grow or germinate something? 

If the old First Men and wildling tradition of the elderly men leaving the house to go off and die was a thing, then surely it's within the realm of possibility that an aged dragonlord would allow himself to be sacrificed along with a bastard child in order to hatch a dragon egg - especially if he believed he would be transformed into a dragon.

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From F&B we get that Morning hatched in the Vale while Rhaena was under the protection of Jeyne Arryn. It looks like this dragon went through a normal hatching. The ritual (or prophetic event) seems to be only about hatching eggs that turned to stone.

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25 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

How can you be so confident that two kings weren't sacrificed for every dragon born? It's not like there ever was very many of them at one time. 

I think bastard children became more commonly sacrificed and were referred to as "dragonseed". What is a seed if not to grow or germinate something? 

If the old First Men and wildling tradition of the elderly men leaving the house to go off and die was a thing, then surely it's within the realm of possibility that an aged dragonlord would allow himself to be sacrificed along with a bastard child in order to hatch a dragon egg - especially if he believed he would be transformed into a dragon.

My issue with this is that the Dragonseeds wouldn't die as kings. They were bastards, they don't get inheritance rights. That said, needing two sacrifices to awaken a dragon could make more sense. 

 

The relation to the First Men and their own sacrifices could make sense. We suspect that there were dragons in Westeros long before the Valyrians got there, so the First men may have some knowledge of how to hatch dragons. I hope we get a look inside the barrows in the next book, there should be some juicy stuff in there. 

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