Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Melifeather]

Forgive me if this is too far off topic - to me it kind of goes along with what we are discussing, which is what is needed to hatch dragon eggs. I am thinking a live dragon could possibly hatch their own eggs, but I also think that humans can hatch dragon eggs if they have the right "seeds", and I believe that bastard children were called "dragonsseeds" because they thought it was perfectly acceptable to sacrifice these children in order to hatch the eggs. I'm going over this again, because something else occurred to me on the opposing side when applying ice to the magic recipe - white walkers. 

Recall the Nights King story when he gave his "seed" to the beautiful Other? What if Gilly's son, Monster is the "seed" that will be used to resurrect Jon as the Nights King?

Edited to add: a sacrificed child can be called a "seed" if it acts like semen does when fertilizing an egg. I'm sure you've all instinctively understood that, but I thought I would spell it out, because it really seems to hit home that whenever GRRM is calling something a "seed" it's really code for a sacrifice - something sacrificed in order to "birth" something else.

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Forgive me if this is too far off topic - to me it kind of goes along with what we are discussing, which is what is needed to hatch dragon eggs. I am thinking a live dragon could possibly hatch their own eggs, but I also think that humans can hatch dragon eggs if they have the right "seeds", and I believe that bastard children were called "dragonsseeds" because they thought it was perfectly acceptable to sacrifice these children in order to hatch the eggs. I'm going over this again, because something else occurred to me on the opposing side when applying ice to the magic recipe - white walkers. 

Recall the Nights King story when he gave his "seed" to the beautiful Other? What if Gilly's son, Monster is the "seed" that will be used to resurrect Jon as the Nights King?

Edited to add: a sacrificed child can be called a "seed" if it acts like semen does when fertilizing an egg. I'm sure you've all instinctively understood that, but I thought I would spell it out, because it really seems to hit home that whenever GRRM is calling something a "seed" it's really code for a sacrifice - something sacrificed in order to "birth" something else.

Tormund paying Jon's "blood price" in children reinforce the idea that child sacrifice is linked to the creation of The Wall. Not unexpected given the link between powerful magic and blood magic.

For the WWs, I am more inclined to the idea of them being created from old First Men; some of those old people said to "go hunting" might have ended as white walkers. The imagery of an old man walking alone of the white snow would match a "white walker". I also link this to Theon that is described as an old man by Asha and as a ghost (by himself).

Something like recycling old people with magical bloodlines into WW and dead people into wights. "ice preserves" after all.

[Janneyc1]

29 minutes ago, Tucu said:

For the WWs, I am more inclined to the idea of them being created from old First Men; some of those old people said to "go hunting" might have ended as white walkers. The imagery of an old man walking alone of the white snow would match a "white walker". I also link this to Theon that is described as an old man by Asha and as a ghost (by himself).

I disagree slightly. I think that the WW started with the Last Hero's companions. Basically, as the Last Hero went to find the CotF, his friends died or were sacrificed to create the WW. I could see the Long Night being used as a weapon by the CotF and the WW herding humanity south to where they have the better chance of survival. 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

Tormund paying Jon's "blood price" in children reinforce the idea that child sacrifice is linked to the creation of The Wall. Not unexpected given the link between powerful magic and blood magic.

For the WWs, I am more inclined to the idea of them being created from old First Men; some of those old people said to "go hunting" might have ended as white walkers. The imagery of an old man walking alone of the white snow would match a "white walker". I also link this to Theon that is described as an old man by Asha and as a ghost (by himself).

Something like recycling old people with magical bloodlines into WW and dead people into wights. "ice preserves" after all.

I'm not opposed to the idea that old men were sacrificed to create white walkers. They'd still be "seeding" or inseminating the new life. The books are filled with parallels, and a lot of those parallels are inverted, so while the ice side could be using humans at the end of their lives - preserving them in some perverted way - the fire side is the opposite and uses humans in the infancy of their lives - consuming the life in the fire.

 

56 minutes ago, Janneyc1 said:

I disagree slightly. I think that the WW started with the Last Hero's companions. Basically, as the Last Hero went to find the CotF, his friends died or were sacrificed to create the WW. I could see the Long Night being used as a weapon by the CotF and the WW herding humanity south to where they have the better chance of survival. 

The Last Hero and his friends went in search of the Children to help them defeat the white walkers. The white walkers were in existence prior to their search, so they are not the origin. 

While its not clear if the Children had any part in creating the white walkers, they are given credit for showing the First Men how to defeat them. If the Children truly created the white walkers as weapons, why not allow a complete genocide?

We also don't know if the white walkers of old "herded" humanity, though that may be the appearance in the current story. The men of the Watch at the Fist were attacked and then pursued by the white walkers and wights, and then the wildlings came afterward scavenging the dead. Even then the white walkers weren't "herding" the wildlings. They were leading the way.

[Tucu]

7 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

While its not clear if the Children had any part in creating the white walkers, they are given credit for showing the First Men how to defeat them. If the Children truly created the white walkers as weapons, why not allow a complete genocide?

I have two possible explanations for the partial genocide.

One option is that their plan was a culling and they preserved some bloodlines historically linked to the Pact

The second one is that they didn't have total control of the white cold and decided to protect friendly bloodlines; either they didn't create the white cold or it was an out of control weapon. The WW would be just protectors capable of operating during the long night.

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I have two possible explanations for the partial genocide.

One option is that their plan was a culling and they preserved some bloodlines historically linked to the Pact

The second one is that they didn't have total control of the white cold and decided to protect friendly bloodlines; either they didn't create the white cold or it was an out of control weapon. The WW would be just protectors capable of operating during the long night.

 

My theory was the Children created White Walkers to wipe out all life after realizing they were doomed to extinction.  Either humans convinced them to change their minds, or the group of Children that helped the humans was a different group from those that created the White Walkers.

If the White Walkers were under control of the Children, they would never teach men how to kill them.  So either there has to be 2 groups of children, 1 controlling the WW and the other teaching men, or the White Walkers have to be out of control.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

If the White Walkers were under control of the Children, they would never teach men how to kill them.  So either there has to be 2 groups of children, 1 controlling the WW and the other teaching men, or the White Walkers have to be out of control.

They could have taught the NW how to "kill" WW as part of the creation of the black legend that has marked the end of the world of men for a few thousand years. Men forget quickly so they created The Wall to mark the frontier and the human NW as the forever enemy of the boogeymen. A few encounters every now and then would be needed to keep the legend alive and most men south of The Wall.

[Black Crow]

10 hours ago, Tucu said:

Tormund paying Jon's "blood price" in children reinforce the idea that child sacrifice is linked to the creation of The Wall. Not unexpected given the link between powerful magic and blood magic.

For the WWs, I am more inclined to the idea of them being created from old First Men; some of those old people said to "go hunting" might have ended as white walkers. The imagery of an old man walking alone of the white snow would match a "white walker". I also link this to Theon that is described as an old man by Asha and as a ghost (by himself).

Something like recycling old people with magical bloodlines into WW and dead people into wights. "ice preserves" after all.

I think its simpler and more sinister. The swords on the tombs in the Winterfell crypts are there to prevent the Stark Lords from rising as White Walkers. Craster's sons are being taken instead.

[dialt]

On 1/15/2019 at 4:20 AM, Janneyc1 said:

Lets break this down into sections: 

1. Viserys, Rhaego? and Rhaeghar. "Mother of Dragons, Daughter of Death". These are all people in her family that have died, not meeting their lifes work? and possibly dying due to Dany herself? 

2. Azor Ahai (possibly fake), Cloth Dragon on Poles (Aegon?), Great Stone Beast. "Mother of Dragons, Slayer of Lies. I think that what this part is telling us is that Dany will reveal that these are lies. I think that the Azor Ahai is Stannis, that the Cloth dragon on Poles is a fake Aegon, and what about the Great Stone beast? Perhaps she will reveal something about Jon Connington, the Griffin who is turning into a Stone Man. 

3. Silver trotting, Corpse on the prow of the ship, blue flower in a chink in a wall of ice. "Mother of Dragons, Bride of Fire". I think this gets into prophesy, in whom Dany will marry. the Silver trotting would be Drogo, the corpse on the Prow of a ship could be Euron or Victarion Greyjoy. Finally, though it pains me to say it, the blue flower growing at the Wall could be Jon. 

 

 

80% agree. That my take...

1 “Daughter of Death”. She’s not the daughter of any of these characters. So “death” is the key word here. And these are 3 Targaryen princes (Raegho should have been so from his mother side) that never became Kings and more importantly dead by the time Daenerys has the visions. Making her - from her pov at that given time - the last of the Trgaryen alive.

2. “Slayer of Lies”. I bet she won’t sly any of these 3. Therefore “lies” is the key word of the triplet. And these 3 lies have to do - imo - with 3 fake Prince that was Promised that - that’s the point - should come from the Targaryen lineage. However.. Stannis: we know he believes to be the chosen one. Then fAegon. In a previous vision Daenerys has just seen “Aegon’s” birth and Rhaegar saying “ he’s the prince that was promised”.  That was probably the first time she heard about the PtwP. Moments before this vision. However, Young Griff is a mummers dragon, not Aegon. Finally, I’d say... Euron. The impression I’ve got from the Forsaken sample chapter is that he learnt about the prophecy too, that he believes to be a kind of Supernatural, divine King and that whatever he’s going to do with his brother, etc.. in Old Town, that will cause the stone beast from a smoking tower taking shape. So= Lies from 3 fake PtwP

And the PtwP - the right one - has to be a Targaryen.

3. “Bride of Fire”. The key word - I believe -  in this case too is the second one. So Fire, not Bride. Even more so, because in the first vision she see “her silver”. The vision is about her, not her husband. And who’s Dany? The last Targaryen alive. That is what she believes at that time. When the visions occure. And Targaryen = Dragons -> Fire. But... she’s not. In fact, the second vision... is about Aemon, who - even tho she sees his death - is still alive at that, when she’s at the HotU.  As we know Aemon will die on a ship. And - that is why she sees him dying and why this vision is the second one in this triplet - he’ll die sad because he won’t be able to meet her, but hopeful  because he will finally understand how important she is. That she’s (he believes) the princesses that was promised. In addition.. the eyes of the corpse are bright. That because Aemon is blind, sure, but he surely is a wise, clever (bright=intelligent) man. Grey lips... because he is also a master. He’s not a knight: intellect (bright eyes) and eloquence (the grey lips of a master) are his weapons. Finally, before dying, Aemon will ask Sam to reach out to Daenerys. Meaning that most likely, Sam - following Aemon’s wish - will end up linking Daenerys and... Jon. The 3rd Targaryen still alive at that given time.

So to me overall, these 3 triplets, have to with her family. And in my opinion, they  don’t have to be read in association with those about the 3 fires, treasons etc..

I believe that those are about her personal journey. About “her” story. About her as an individual. While these ones are about her family and the first ones are more about the large context on which she operates. Past, present and future events that determine/influence that contex

[SirArthur]

I don't know. Like with the ToJ, the Targaryen's as an argument are a clusterfuck, somewhere between a house, a family and a gene line. 

[Lady Rhodes]

2 hours ago, lalt said:

3. Silver trotting, Corpse on the prow of the ship, blue flower in a chink in a wall of ice. "Mother of Dragons, Bride of Fire". I think this gets into prophesy, in whom Dany will marry. the Silver trotting would be Drogo, the corpse on the Prow of a ship could be Euron or Victarion Greyjoy. Finally, though it pains me to say it, the blue flower growing at the Wall could be Jon. 

I hadn't thought of this, but it seems persuasive

[Lady Rhodes]

@Feather Crystal @Tucu @Brad Stark

Some interesting thoughts here RE: White Walker creation. 

Brad, as you may know, the show depicts the WW as being created by the children to fight the first men, but then they lost control.  Certainly plausible.  However, I am inclined to think that is a partial understanding of what is going on, and was watered down to make more understandable for TV. I could be wrong, though.

I've lately been thinking about Bran and his connection to all of this.  The more I think about it, the more I think that Bran is the source of the Others.  I think it fits what we know of Martin and his writing style - he doesn't want a dark lord in the corner, so it doesn't make sense for that kind of dichotomy to be formed at the end.  However, if Bran, through his travels, creates timeloops (meaning he doesn't change the past/present/future but enacts the changes that cause the past/present/future to unfold as they have/as they will) I could see the dark irony of having Bran being the person to cause the whole problem to begin with. Also, how bittersweet if Bran has to be killed to stop it all?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

However, if Bran, through his travels, creates timeloops (meaning he doesn't change the past/present/future but enacts the changes that cause the past/present/future to unfold as they have/as they will)

I think this is an interesting possibility.   

[Melifeather]

If we focus on how life is created, you cannot help but see the dragon "eggs" as being one end of a life cycle with the elderly men that leave their families as being at the opposite end. Both ends require seeding to enact the transformation, but maybe it doesn't matter the age of the seed, just that it's blood or life is sacrificed?

We have discussed the possibility that Bran is the source of the white walkers before in conjunction with time loops. He does seem to be inspired of the Marvel character Dr Strange, with Euron being Mordo, and Bloodraven being the Sorcerer Supreme. The Dr Strange character trapped Dormammu into an endless time loop. Dormammu's quest was to bring all worlds into his Dark Dimension, and seems to be the inspiration for the white walkers.

IMO it seems more likely that when the Last Hero and the Children defeated the Others, it was they that placed them into a continual time loop, which has also affected human life in Westeros, which is why historic events are cyclical. Instead of having one Dr Strange, they've had to replace him every 70 years or so with the Last Hero being the first one - on down to Bloodraven, and now Bran. And instead of utilizing the Eye of Aggomotto, it's the Wall that has held the Others captive in a time loop. Bran's job then is to figure out a way to finally defeat the Others, because the wards holding the Wall together are old and fraying.

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

@Feather Crystal @Tucu @Brad Stark

Some interesting thoughts here RE: White Walker creation. 

Brad, as you may know, the show depicts the WW as being created by the children to fight the first men, but then they lost control.  Certainly plausible.  However, I am inclined to think that is a partial understanding of what is going on, and was watered down to make more understandable for TV. I could be wrong, though.

I agree whatever the story is, we will learn the show watered it down.  However the show does not say the cof lost control.  It is possible they never had control in the first place.  My idea of 2 different groups of cof isn't explicitly ruled out, but seems unlikely. 

[Lady Rhodes]

50 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

IMO it seems more likely that when the Last Hero and the Children defeated the Others, it was they that placed them into a continual time loop, which has also affected human life in Westeros, which is why historic events are cyclical. Instead of having one Dr Strange, they've had to replace him every 70 years or so with the Last Hero being the first one - on down to Bloodraven, and now Bran. And instead of utilizing the Eye of Aggomotto, it's the Wall that has held the Others captive in a time loop. Bran's job then is to figure out a way to finally defeat the Others, because the wards holding the Wall together are old and fraying.

This is very interesting! Now, why do you think the wards are fraying? Just curious, not trying to pick. 

4 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

It is possible they never had control in the first place

Ah, fair point. I concede that I was rash in my generalization.

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I think this is an interesting possibility

Thank you! If the book events pertaining to Hodor are similar to the show (and I think they ill be similar in substance, even if context is a bit off, given what the show runners and GRRM have said pertaining to the events), then I think it is very possible that the end game is that Bran has to die for the Others to die.  

Generally, I try to keep show discussions to show and book discussion to book.  However, GRRM is still an executive producer, even if he isn't involved in day to day events, and I think some things that they do could indicate things for book, even if they are distorted to make it, not necessarily more palatable, but more receptive to larger audiences. With that said, here is my theory that involves show spoilers, so I am hiding it.

Spoiler

Beric in the show points to the Night King and says to Jon "he created them all. kill him, they all die."

That is very straightforward for show audiences and non book readers to follow. 

I think it is going to boil down to this - to kill them all, Bran has to die.

That is a bittersweet ending.

 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Lady Rhodes said:

why do you think the wards are fraying? Just curious, not trying to pick.

I believe the House of the Undying is a parallel to the Cave of Skulls where Bloodraven and Bran are. Dany describes the condition of the HotU, known colloquially as the Palace of Dust:

Quote

Long and low, without towers or windows, it coiled like a stone serpent through a grove of black-barked trees whose inky blue leaves made the stuff of the sorcerous drink the Qartheen called shade of the evening. No other buildings stood near. Black tiles covered the palace roof, many fallen or broken; the mortar between the stones was dry and crumbling. She understood now why Xaro Xhoan Daxos called it the Palace of Dust. Even Drogon seemed disquieted by the sight of it. The black dragon hissed, smoke seeping out between his sharp teeth.

....and also...

Quote

The mold-eaten carpet under her feet had once been gorgeously colored, and whorls of gold could still be seen in the fabric, glinting broken amidst the faded grey and mottled green. What remained served to muffle her footfalls, but that was not all to the good. Dany could hear sounds within the walls, a faint scurrying and scrabbling that made her think of rats. Drogon heard them too. His head moved as he followed the sounds, and when they stopped he gave an angry scream. Other sounds, even more disturbing, came through some of the closed doors. One shook and thumped, as if someone were trying to break through. From another came a dissonant piping that made the dragon lash his tail wildly from side to side. Dany hurried quickly past.

The whorls of gold seem symbolic of the wards with the grey and mottled green bringing to mind the colors of a stormy winter sea. The House of the Undying is ancient, crumbling, and moldy with threadbare rugs. When it was new it must have been a sight to behold, but now it's falling apart. I imagine the Wall and it's wards are in the same ancient and crumbling condition.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

And instead of utilizing the Eye of Aggomotto, it's the Wall that has held the Others captive in a time loop.

Just expanding on this idea a little bit. Since the Wall is this story's representation of the Eye of Aggomotto, the "eye" became "eyes" - Bloodraven is said to have a thousand eyes and one.

[Matthew.]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

I agree whatever the story is, we will learn the show watered it down.  However the show does not say the cof lost control.  It is possible they never had control in the first place.  My idea of 2 different groups of cof isn't explicitly ruled out, but seems unlikely. 

I'll leave aside book world entirely for the moment, and just make some observations about what has been shown in the show, as well as elaborated on in the History and Lore extras.

To the premise of the CotF losing control, it would appear that a visual choice has been made to depict the heart tree that was utilized in the NK's creation as having been damaged, split down the middle, as is both visually evident in the show, and in the official art: Before and After

Show world's timeline and ancient history appears to be roughly as follows:
- Men cross the Arm of Dorne, cut down the weirwood without appreciating the consequences of their actions, and war breaks out
- The First King unites humanity against the CotF, supposedly dies at some later date in the North
- The Hammer of the Waters is attempted, first at the Arm of Dorne, then at the Neck, both of which fail to stop humanity's advance
- The CotF create the NK to "turn men's numbers against them;" attrition on both sides eventually leads to the Pact
- "Hundreds of years later," (according to Histories and Lore), the Long Night happens, and the FM and CotF are forced to join forces to deal with the white walkers.

Again, I'll leave aside book world, and say that the picture that seems to be emerging in Show World is that at some point in time the NK's grove was damaged (perhaps freeing him from the greenseers, if he was ever under control in the first place), and he eventually set up shop in the far north and began making his own WWs, attacking CotF and FM alike.

[Matthew.]

36 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

The whorls of gold seem symbolic of the wards with the grey and mottled green bringing to mind the colors of a stormy winter sea. The House of the Undying is ancient, crumbling, and moldy with threadbare rugs. When it was new it must have been a sight to behold, but now it's falling apart. I imagine the Wall and it's wards are in the same ancient and crumbling condition.

Just to add to this potential reading of the long hall/carpet representing the Wall, one side of the hall has a line of torches that are gradually going out, with Dany's sense of danger increasing:
 

Quote

The torches were going out, she realized with a start of fear. Perhaps twenty still burned. Thirty at most. One more guttered out even as she watched, and the darkness came a little farther down the hall, creeping toward her. And as she listened it seemed as if she heard something else coming, shuffling and dragging itself slowly along the faded carpet. Terror filled her. She could not go back and she was afraid to stay here, but how could she go on? There was no door on her right, and the steps went down, not up.

Yet another torch went out as she stood pondering, and the sounds grew faintly louder.

If the carpet is the wards, "torches on the wall, gradually going out" could represent the Watch.