Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

Just to add to this potential reading of the long hall/carpet representing the Wall, one side of the hall has a line of torches that are gradually going out, with Dany's sense of danger increasing:
 

If the carpet is the wards, "torches on the wall, gradually going out" could represent the Watch.

Oh, I like this very much!

[asongofheresy]

Is it okay if I give a shot about HotU visions? Though I am not sure how true they are? 

Daughter of Death

Vision of Viserys - a vision of past, true vision we know that happened 

Vision of Rhaego - a vision of future that won't happen, a false vision

Vision of "Rhaegar" - I don't believe the Prince at the Trident is Rhaegar since the past accounts and the vision don't match so I will say the vision is a future one that could happen 

Slayer of Lies 

Vision of Azor Ahai? - vision of past maybe it is Stannis during the burning of  his Florent Hand or AA himself

Vision of Cloth Dragon - a false vision of the future - Daenerys and Viserys thought the small folk are waiting for their return and will cheer for them etc but we know from Jorah they don't want anything to do with politics and only want to be left alone and even though it was Aegon who returned to Westeros, Targaryen allies like Reach and Dorne aren't enthusiastic to support him, I also think cloth dragon is the banners of Targaryens not some fake prince *shrug emoji* 

Vision of Stone Beast - a true vision of the future, the beast Melisandre wants to awake imo 

Bride of the Fire 

Vision of Silver - true vision of the past, Daenerys' marriage to Drogo 

Vision of Aemon? - false vision of the future, Aemon's manner of death doesn't match the future even though he died in a ship 

Vision of Blue Flower - a true vision of the future? I think it is a vision of Daenerys going to the Wall 

[Brad Stark]

The first 6 fit a nice pattern, if you accept the most straightforward explanation. 

Daughter of Dead - 3 visions of dead relatives, if you accept the prince as Rhaegar 

Slayer of Lies - 3 visions of lies, assuming the first is Stannis and he fake Lightbringer, the second is Aegon only pretending to be a Targaryen, and the 3rd is the belief that waking dragons from stone is anything more than Dany hatching her eggs. 

The next 3 are confusing, with Aeron Greyjoy being the popular Internet answer for the man on the ship and the blue flower being Jon if j=r+l.  I find Dany's silver just as confusing as the others, even though this is a straightforward literal event we recognize, I don't see how it is of any importance to the story, especially the part not yet written. 

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The next 3 are confusing, with Aeron Greyjoy being the popular Internet answer for the man on the ship and the blue flower being Jon if j=r+l.  I find Dany's silver just as confusing as the others, even though this is a straightforward literal event we recognize, I don't see how it is of any importance to the story, especially the part not yet written. 

after some time on the thread, I think I want to revise my thoughts on the last set of three. I think that the first set shows how she is the last Targaryen, the second set shows some of the challenges that she will face, and the last set shows the path that she will take. Her silver trotting by the stream was her marrying Drogo, I think the Corpse on the prow of the ship is going to be Victarion Greyjoy or perhaps Moqorro (I personally think that Moqorro is a glamor), which provides her transportation back to Westeros, and the Blue Flower on the Wall leads us to think of Jon (the resident Stark on the Wall). 

[Brad Stark]

Quote

“Your Grace,” said Torwold Browntooth. “I have the priests. What do you want done with them?”

“Bind them to the prows,” Euron commanded. “My brother on the Silence. Take one for yourself. Let them dice for the others, one to a ship. Let them feel the spray, the kiss of the Drowned God, wet and salty.”

This time, the mutes did not drag him below. Instead, they lashed him to the prow of the Silence, beside her figurehead, a naked maiden slim and strong with outstretched arms and windblown hair … but no mouth below her nose.

They bound Aeron Damphair tight with strips of leather that would shrink when wet, clad only in his beard and breechclout. The Crow’s Eye spoke a command; a black sail was raised, lines were cast off, and the Silence backed away from shore to the slow beat of the oarmaster’s drum, her oars rising and dipping and rising again, churning the water. Above them, the castle was burning, flames licking from the open windows.

 

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Brad Stark said:

 

Yes I understand that Aeron was bound to the prow of a ship. In Oldtown and as far as I can tell, not affecting Dany until she possibly returns to Westeros. Yes some eldritch horror is likely to appear in Oldtown, but I don't think that is what Dany is seeing. 

[Lady Rhodes]

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

Is it okay if I give a shot about HotU visions? Though I am not sure how true they are? 

Daughter of Dead

Vision of Viserys - a vision of past, true vision we know that happened 

Vision of Rhaego - a vision of future that won't happen, a false vision

Vision of "Rhaegar" - I don't believe the Prince at the Trident is Rhaegar since the past accounts and the vision don't match so I will say the vision is a future one that could happen 

Slayer of Lies 

Vision of Azor Ahai? - vision of past maybe it is Stannis during the burning of  his Florent Hand or AA himself

Vision of Cloth Dragon - a false vision of the future - Daenerys and Viserys thought the small folk are waiting for their return and will cheer for them etc but we know from Jorah they don't want anything to do with politics and only want to be left alone and even though it was Aegon who returned to Westeros, Targaryen allies like Reach and Dorne aren't enthusiastic to support him, I also think cloth dragon is the banners of Targaryens not some fake prince *shrug emoji* 

Vision of Stone Beast - a true vision of the future, the beast Melisandre wants to awake imo 

Bride of the Fire 

Vision of Silver - true vision of the past, Daenerys' marriage to Drogo 

Vision of Aemon? - false vision of the future, Aemon's manner of death doesn't match the future even though he died in a ship 

Vision of Blue Flower - a true vision of the future? I think it is a vision of Daenerys going to the Wall 

I'm liking this pattern:  past, false future, actual future.  Need to reread to work on this.

[Brad Stark]

I don't have my book, but believe she is called 'Daughter of Death' not 'Daughter of Dead'. 

What if she caused the death of these 3 people?  She is responsible for killing her son by agreeing to the ritual, she is responsible for killing Visceris. The prince is interesting, especially if it is Rhaegar, as we can come up with all kinds of theories on the rebellion if Dany is somehow responsible for Rhaegar's death. 

[Janneyc1]

3 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

What if she caused the death of these 3 people?  She is responsible for killing her son by agreeing to the ritual, she is responsible for killing Visceris. The prince is interesting, especially if it is Rhaegar, as we can come up with all kinds of theories on the rebellion if Dany is somehow responsible for Rhaegar's death. 

Occam's dragon: R+L=D. Especially if Rhaegar was looking to produce another daughter. 

[St Daga]

On 1/17/2019 at 12:55 PM, The Snowfyre Chorus said:

On 1/17/2019 at 12:11 PM, Janneyc1 said:

They had real reactions when Drogon burned them, so I would think that they were actually there. 

This bit, right?:

Quote

...heat washed over her skin, and Dany blinked at a sudden glare. Perched above her, the dragon spread his wings and tore at the terrible dark heart, ripping the rotten flesh to ribbons, and when his head snapped forward, fire flew from his open jaws, bright and hot.  She could hear the shrieks of the Undying as they burned, their high thin papery voices crying out in tongues long dead. Their flesh was crumbling parchment, their bones dry wood soaked in tallow. They danced as the flames consumed them; they staggered and writhed and spun and raised blazing hands on high, their fingers bright as torches.

Dany pushed herself to her feet and bulled through them. They were light as air, no more than husks, and they fell at a touch...

Lots of interesting stuff going on there.  Was their flesh actually "crumbling parchment?"  Their bones literally "dry wood soaked in tallow?"

Does Drogon flame the Undying... or does he flame the rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  For some reason I always read that as if he'd flamed the heart, and then the Undying burst into flame.  But I see that's not clear.

Hold on a minute. Is there actually a rotten human heart levitating above the stone table?  Surely that, at least, is a drug-induced hallucination.  

If the Undying were real... wouldn't Dany have some fairly serious injuries given that, just before she fled, "teeth found the soft skin of her throat," and "a mouth descended on [her] eye, licking, sucking, biting?"

I think it's possible that everything that happened after Dany drank the Shade of the Evening was a hallucination, including what she feels attacking her. If so, does it all live inside of her before this moment, and the Shade just opened her up to what was already within her. Did the Warlocks use her so they could see what was within her? I think this could mirror Bran and the weirwood paste in some ways. For Dany, there are no rooms with separate visions, no hallways, no stairs, no undying ones. So, if there is nothing inside the House of the Undying Ones, what is the source that is within Dany that leads to all of her visions? Or does it open her to the source that is sending it to her? I honestly can't decide if these vision are already inside of her or are sent to her? Do the black and blue tree's of Essos connect to the white and red trees of Westeros? 

Euron seems to use the Shade of the Evening and it doesn't seem to matter where he is at when he is consuming it. Therefore, the location should not matter to Dany, either.

So, the things that are "real" are Drogon, the path through the black tree's and the doorway that appears to be a mouth in a wall (which relates to the weirwoods and The Black Gate?) When Dany comes out of the building, she comes out the same door she entered, where Pyat Pree and her people wait for her. It does seem like the building is on fire, although I have wondered if that is still part of her hallucination. Did she step inside a doorway, have herself a nice little trip without actually stepping five feet from the doorway, than step back outside the building when the magic wore off?

I know this doesn't really explain what each individual vision means, but it might ultimately connect her to Bloodraven, who is missing an eye and has Odin like imagery around him. Euron uses the shade and has something odd going on with his eyes. In her visions, Dany feels a mouth sucking and biting at her eye. Orell's eagle attacks Jon and seems to go for his eye, although Jon has no substance induced visions (meaning Shade or weirwood paste). Bran has the substance induced visions with no apparent eye injury but dreams of the three-eyed crow. Are Jon and Bran each living half of some important quest?

And it relation to this eye theme, this line stood out to me on reread today. It is from Dany's chapter that follows her visit to the House of the Undying. 

Quote

And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder.  ACOK-Daenerys V

This is the same paragraph that we hear about Urrathon Night Walker.

Quote

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. Ghost grass grows in the Garden of Gehane, phantom tortoises have been seen carrying messages between the windowless houses on Warlock's Way, and all the rats in the city are chewing off their tails. The wife of Mathos Mallarawan, who once mocked a warlock's drab moth-eaten robe, has gone mad and will wear no clothes at all. Even fresh-washed silks make her feel as though a thousand insects were crawling on her skin. And Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes can see again, or so his slaves do swear. A man must wonder." He sighed. "These are strange times in Qarth. And strange times are bad for trade. It grieves me to say so, yet it might be best if you left Qarth entirely, and sooner rather than later." Xaro stroked her fingers reassuringly. "You need not go alone, though. You have seen dark visions in the Palace of Dust, but Xaro has dreamed brighter dreams. I see you happily abed, with our child at your breast. Sail with me around the Jade Sea, and we can yet make it so! It is not too late. Give me a son, my sweet song of joy!" ACOK-Daenerys V

I think this paragraph might very strongly tie back to what happened to Dany in the House of the Undying, but I am certainly not trying to derail us from trying to understand Dany's visions themselves.

[Lady Rhodes]

 

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years

I have posited that I think Urrathon Night-Walker is actually Euron Greyjoy, and that he set up home in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.

[Janneyc1]

25 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

 

I have posited that I think Urrathon Night-Walker is actually Euron Greyjoy, and that he set up home in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.

Agreed, Urrathon definitely has some ties to the Iron Isles. I wouldn't be surprised if he set up shop in a couple different places. 

[LynnS]

I've entertained the idea that the blue flower growing from a chink in the Wall represents Bran (another Stark blue rose).  To my mind the chink in the Wall represents the Black Gate and there is a connection between the Gate and Bran's growing power.  Recalling that Mel tells Jon that there is power in the Wall; which Jon can use if he chooses; I think this must also apply to Bran who have passed through the portal.

The idea that Danny cannot see Bran's face but rather sees a blue flower; fits with my notion that Bran's identity is hidden from both Mel and Dany in their visions.  Mel sees the child with a wolf's head howling at her and Dany sees the Great Wolf in the fire during Drogo's ordeal in the tent.   Although Dany is able to see the 'man limned in flame' she can't pierce the veil surrounding Bran. 

Something similar happens with Tree-Bran when he encounters Ghost-Jon.  He tells us that he touches Ghost and talks to Jon.

So while attention is focused primarily on Jon; I think it's entirely possible that this is Bran instead.

[Frey family reunion]

Just some brief observations:

Quote

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

Pretty sure this is a reference/homage to both A Midsummer Night’s Dream which is in turn a reference for the Greek Myth from Ovid: Pyramus and Thisbe.  The tale of Pyramus and Thisbe is probably the inspiration behind Romeo and Juliet.  Two people growing up in houses separated by a common wall.  Their relationship develops through conversations they have with each other through a “chink in the wall”.  Later they try to have a rendez vous, when Thisbe has to flee into a cave from a lion, leaving her cloak behind.  Pyramus finds the lion who had rended Thisbe’s cloak (echoed with Mance’s cloak perhaps).  Pyramus, thinking Thisbe to be slain, skewers himself with his sword.  Thisbe than finds Pyramus mortally wounded and likewise impales herself on his sword.  Both being burned on the same funeral pyre.

Pyramus and Thisbe is the play within a play in A Midsummer Night’s Dream.  One of the characters even plays the part of the “chink in the wall”.

Quote

Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue eyed king who cast no shadow.

This may be an homage to Dante’s Divine Comedy.  The way you could tell the difference between the dead and the visitors to Hell, is that the dead did not cast a shadow.

Another possible inspiration is Mount Lykanos.  In one of the Greek tales, this was the birthplace to Zeus.  Worshipped as Zeus-Lykanos, this was the aspect of Zeus as the wolf.  The legend has it that Lycaon sacrificed a human child to Zeus and was punished by being transformed into a wolf.  Allegedly an altar to Zeus was located on the Mountain and no people or creatures within the area of this altar would cast a shadow.

 

[Tucu]

33 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I've entertained the idea that the blue flower growing from a chink in the Wall represents Bran (another Stark blue rose).  To my mind the chink in the Wall represents the Black Gate and there is a connection between the Gate and Bran's growing power.  Recalling that Mel tells Jon that there is power in the Wall; which Jon can use if he chooses; I think this must also apply to Bran who have passed through the portal.

The idea that Danny cannot see Bran's face but rather sees a blue flower; fits with my notion that Bran's identity is hidden from both Mel and Dany in their visions.  Mel sees the child with a wolf's head howling at her and Dany sees the Great Wolf in the fire during Drogo's ordeal in the tent.   Although Dany is able to see the 'man limned in flame' she can't pierce the veil surrounding Bran. 

Something similar happens with Tree-Bran when he encounters Ghost-Jon.  He tells us that he touches Ghost and talks to Jon.

So while attention is focused primarily on Jon; I think it's entirely possible that this is Bran instead.

I would go further with the methaphore for that vision. The blue flower would represent the Starks and they are feeding of the magic from the chink in The Wall.

[LynnS]

9 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I would go further with the methaphore for that vision. The blue flower would represent the Starks and they are feeding from the magic from the chink in The Wall.

Sure.  I still entertain the notion that the Black Gate is the middle head of the god Trios; the head that nobody knows how it functions.  So far, Bran is the only Stark who has interacted with the Wall in the form of the Gate; receiving a blessing of sorts when the Gate drops a salt tear of Bran's forehead.   Bran is 'the one' whom Coldhands is sent to collect.  

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, Janneyc1 said:

 I think the Corpse on the prow of the ship is going to be Victarion Greyjoy or perhaps Moqorro (I personally think that Moqorro is a glamor), which provides her transportation back to Westeros, and the Blue Flower on the Wall leads us to think of Jon (the resident Stark on the Wall). 

Moqorro is not a glamour, but he is using a glamour to conceal his true form and appearance - just like Mel

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Lady Rhodes said:

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years

I have posited that I think Urrathon Night-Walker is actually Euron Greyjoy, and that he set up home in Qarth after his exile from the Iron Islands.

Yes, I have come across this idea before and I do like it. I think it has a lot of merit but now I am wondering about Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes, who can now see again being associated with Euron too! After all, we see Euron has an eye patch that hides something. Has he lost an eye or not? Euron has his sky blue "smiling eye", which itself is a bit unusual, since the rest of the Greyjoy's are noted to have black eyes (except Theon, who I don't think has an eye color description beyond "dark") and in The Forsaken chapter, we hear of Euron's "blood eye" which is dark and terrible, but that is from Aeron's thoughts after he has drank the Shade of the Evening. So is it true or not? What hides behind Euron's eye patch? We don't know why Euron wears the patch or if he has truly had a eye injury, and if so, if it's an old injury or new. Perhaps Euron had given his eye for knowledge and somehow something that happened to Dany in the House of the Undying gave him a new eye! Or sight in the damaged eye? I am not sure what I am really thinking, just trying to see if I can make connections.

But, I do wonder if something that Dany or Drogon did in the House of the Undying actually is the reason the the glass candles are now burning. Did Drogon's fire light these magic candles? Maybe that is the reason that the Warlock's even invited Dany in and let her take Drogon with her?

We are also given the idea that Ghost Grass is again growing and early in Dany's story we are told that the Dothraki believe that Ghost Grass will grow and cover the world and then all life will end.

Just what did Dany's visit to the House of the Undying set off in the world?

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, Black Crow said:

Moqorro is not a glamour, but he is using a glamour to conceal his true form and appearance - just like Mel

my bad, I was trying to say this. Coffee hadn't kicked in yet. 

[Janneyc1]

1 minute ago, St Daga said:

Yes, I have come across this idea before and I do like it. I think it has a lot of merit but now I am wondering about Blind Sybassion the Eater of Eyes, who can now see again being associated with Euron too! After all, we see Euron has an eye patch that hides something. Has he lost an eye or not? Euron has his sky blue "smiling eye", which itself is a bit unusual, since the rest of the Greyjoy's are noted to have black eyes (except Theon, who I don't think has an eye color description beyond "dark") and in The Forsaken chapter, we hear of Euron's "blood eye" which is dark and terrible, but that is from Aeron's thoughts after he has drank the Shade of the Evening. So is it true or not? What hides behind Euron's eye patch? We don't know why Euron wears the patch or if he has truly had a eye injury, and if so, if it's an old injury or new. Perhaps Euron had given his eye for knowledge and somehow something that happened to Dany in the House of the Undying gave him a new eye! Or sight in the damaged eye? I am not sure what I am really thinking, just trying to see if I can make connections.

But, I do wonder if something that Dany or Drogon did in the House of the Undying actually is the reason the the glass candles are now burning. Did Drogon's fire light these magic candles? Maybe that is the reason that the Warlock's even invited Dany in and let her take Drogon with her?

We are also given the idea that Ghost Grass is again growing and early in Dany's story we are told that the Dothraki believe that Ghost Grass will grow and cover the world and then all life will end.

Just what did Dany's visit to the House of the Undying set off in the world?

Well Euron does have some Odin references, though not as many as Bloodraven. In TWOW theon chapter, we see that Theon wanted to pull up Crow Foods eye patch to ensure that it wasn't Euron. Only, euron is said to have a black eye under his patch and Crow's Food wears an obsidian eye where he lost his. I could see Euron sacrificing his Eye so that he could gain a magical eye, perhaps similar in funciton to a glass candle. 

 

As to Dany releasing magic, it was already out there. I think that the candles were lit before Dany arrived in Qarth.