Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[JNR]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I don't know how to define magic, but I think the White Walkers have to be tied to magic, so they are a force in the very first chapter of the story, long before Dany's dragon eggs hatched.

For me, "magic" means "anything I see in GRRM's world that I'm sure exists/happened, and that could not possibly exist or happen in mine."

The Popsicles are by this definition unquestionably magic because when Sam stabbed one with obsidian, it melted and disappeared in seconds.   No organic life form in my world would do that under such circumstances.

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

Maybe we really wont understand what happened until we finally get a conclusion of the series and then it will all click into place!

I think it's like almost all the mysteries -- we won't know for sure until GRRM tells us, but we can make pretty solid guesses before then. 

He's certainly been deliberately dropping clues in this area since book one.

Quote

I asked "Is magic coming back into the world because there are dragons, or are dragons coming back into the world because there's magic?"

George said, "Yes. Hmm, there's excellent cheese on that pizza!" (in combination with some of the stuff he said on a panel this morning, I take it to mean that the seasons, winter and summer, are magical in nature, and he's going to reveal what it's all about eventually, but not yet.)

Pizza is of course a special form of magic because it exists in our world, but not in GRRM's.  People who make top-quality pizza are sorcerers.

[SirArthur]

4 minutes ago, JNR said:

Pizza is of course a special form of magic because it exists in our world, but not in GRRM's.  People who make top-quality pizza are sorcerers.

And once again nobody knows what he means, because he lives in the USA, where everything has to have the same name as in the rest of the world, but be something different. 

The rest of the world would go to Rome by the shadows and just look for a competent pizza sorcerer.

[Black Crow]

I think that as ever it may simply be a chicken and egg thing. Something relatively minor may have happened, perhaps even inadvertently, triggering something else, which in turn has enabled something else. Yes we're told [by Old Nan] that the Comet smells of dragons, And sure enough the appearance of the Comet is the signal to light the pyre which hatches the dragons, who then by their existence strengthen magic throughout the world. Meanwhile up north...

Here I think we are being encouraged to reach some false assumptions. From the beginning we're led to believe that the Wall was built to protect the realms of men. The business of Silverwing supports the old Heretic theory that its the other way around and that it was raised to protect the Otherlands beyond, the realm of Ice, not from men but from Fire.

The Children of Winterfell were sent their Direwolves, but why? Were they to assist the Starks in fighting the blue-eyed lot, or are they required for the fight against Fire? We've speculated and will continue to speculate about the origins of the White Walkers, but what of Melisandre and Moqorro? We know they are hiding their true form and appearance behind glamours and may be a lot older than they appear. Are they the fiery mirror of the Walkers?

If at first sight this appears to be straying from the initial question about dragons and magic, it isn't. The point is that both Ice and Fire are preparing for a fight and these are just the signs, symbols and portents of the struggle getting underway.

[JNR]

3 hours ago, SirArthur said:

And once again nobody knows what he means, because he lives in the USA, where everything has to have the same name as in the rest of the world, but be something different. 

Sometimes!  However, it is possible to make pizza that is certified Neapolitan by the authorities, if one is determined enough, and there are American pizzerias that have done it.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The business of Silverwing supports the old Heretic theory that its the other way around and that it was raised to protect the Otherlands beyond, the realm of Ice, not from men but from Fire.

You could make the stronger case that it blocked Coldhands from proceeding south, since that evidence is in the canon proper.  But the truth is probably a bit more complex than either X or Y.

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

We know they are hiding their true form and appearance behind glamours and may be a lot older than they appear.

Well, we've speculated that.  What we know is that Mel is capable of creating such glamours and has done it for other people.  About Moqorro, there is not even that much information.

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

The Children of Winterfell were sent their Direwolves, but why? Were they to assist the Starks in fighting the blue-eyed lot, or are they required for the fight against Fire? We've speculated and will continue to speculate about the origins of the White Walkers, but what of Melisandre and Moqorro? We know they are hiding their true form and appearance behind glamours and may be a lot older than they appear. Are they the fiery mirror of the Walkers?

Knowing Martins intentions, as well as his work regarding the WotFK, I could see him writing about how magic forces need to be removed in order for humanity to survive. Perhaps the help that the children gave to the Last Hero, they intentionally removed a lot of the access to magic in order to prolong humanity. Think of the Wall as a cap at the end of a magical water hose. 

[Brad Stark]

We don't know all magic has the same source.  The Others could be different from the dragons.  Or if they are the same source, they could be strengthening independently.  We know the Others came back and the direwolves appeared before the dragons hatched, so magic began strengthening before the dragons hatched. 

Magic is based on sacrifice.  When did the Whitetree sacrifices happen?  Wierwoods as a source of magic with sacrifices fits the story. 

[SirArthur]

9 hours ago, JNR said:

Sometimes!  However, it is possible to make pizza that is certified Neapolitan by the authorities, if one is determined enough, and there are American pizzerias that have done it.

You see, GRRM likes Chicago-style Pizza for some reason according to different sources. Does he only like this kind of pizza ? Is he talking about finding a good Chicago-style Pizza ? Is he not liking a normal pizza ?  What is going on ? (To add to this, Chicago Pizza is not a pizza in my opinion).

[alienarea]

As usual, I didn't follow all of the comments above and intrude to crack some pots. Apologies.

I guess we know the order of dying for Rickard and Brandon, but I'm too lazy to look it up. The cracked pot goes like this:

Despite Torrhen (spelling?) bending the knee to the Targaryens, the Starks are technically still the 'Kings of Winter'. Assuming Rickard died before Brandon, the father dies before the son, in theory Brandon was 'King of Winter' for some seconds. Enough to wake the dragon, Jon Snow. But as Jon is also Lyanna's son [and you probably know I hate R+L=J], he is also 'the Prince that was promised' as a corn king sacrifice to the white walkers rising with the death of Lyanna (or Rickard and Brandon, or Summerhall, …). This would also work for Jon and Daenerys to be twins.

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, JNR said:

Well, we've speculated that.  What we know is that Mel is capable of creating such glamours and has done it for other people.  About Moqorro, there is not even that much information.

There's not very much information about Moqorro but what there is seems disturbing. He seems very difficult to kill and his face sometimes shimmers the way the glamour on Mance did. And then he has done something strange to Victarion, involving fire, with a strong suspicion that Victarion is no longer living but undergoing a transformation.

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

We don't know all magic has the same source.  The Others could be different from the dragons.  Or if they are the same source, they could be strengthening independently.  We know the Others came back and the direwolves appeared before the dragons hatched, so magic began strengthening before the dragons hatched. 

Magic is based on sacrifice.  When did the Whitetree sacrifices happen?  Wierwoods as a source of magic with sacrifices fits the story. 

Yes, the magic is strengthening, perhaps exponentially, but I tend to see it as a power, like electricity.You can use it for radically different things - to freeze or to roast for example - but its still electricity

[JNR]

8 hours ago, SirArthur said:

You see, GRRM likes Chicago-style Pizza for some reason according to different sources.

Well, he is from New Jersey and absolutely prefers the NY/NJ style.

Quote

 

"New York City pizza is the best pizza in the world,” the wordsmith proclaimed. “You can walk into any place in New York … and get a slice and it’s better than what you’ll get in 97 percent of America.”

And what makes the New York slice so good?

“I think the secret to the best New York pizza is, number one, the crust has to be thin. The thinner, the better,”

 

That rules out the two dominant Chicago styles (stuffed and deep dish, both of which have thicker crusts) as being any kind of of favorite of his.

Now, NJ/NY style is not identical to the various pizzas you find in Italy including Neapolitan, but it's a direct descendant. 

However, there are certainly dozens of pizza places in America that are literally certified as baking Neapolitan pizzas.

[Wolfkin]

Did the magic get more 'spread out' or stronger, because Jon and company went beyond the Wall?  Just an oddball thought. As I recall the pyromancers 'magic' was working to make wildfire, and their spells were suddenly working better.

 

[JNR]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

And then he has done something strange to Victarion, involving dire, whith a strong suspicion that Victarion is no longer living but undergoing a transformation.

Exactly what's happened to Victarion in unclear; that's exactly why GRRM broke his POV narration rule in that chapter, to hide that.

I wouldn't say he's no longer alive, or is transforming into something else, though.

[Black Crow]

53 minutes ago, Wolfkin said:

Did the magic get more 'spread out' or stronger, because Jon and company went beyond the Wall?  Just an oddball thought. As I recall the pyromancers 'magic' was working to make wildfire, and their spells were suddenly working better.

 

I very much doubt that the increasing power of magic was connected with the Great Ranging. I stick by my view that magic or the power of is growing generally, rather than responding to obscure triggers far away.

It comes back in a way to the issue of dark lords. If its all happening as some popular theories that its all going down because Bloodraven, or Bran Stark, or... is manipulating everything. No matter whether his [or her] motives are good or evil, someone with that power counts as a dark lord, and I'd dispute whether that is part of the story, far less underpinning it.

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I very much doubt that the increasing power of magic was connected with the Great Ranging. I stick by my view that magic or the power of is growing generally, rather than responding to obscure triggers far away.

It comes back in a way to the issue of dark lords. If its all happening as some popular theories that its all going down because Bloodraven, or Bran Stark, or... is manipulating everything. No matter whether his [or her] motives are good or evil, someone with that power counts as a dark lord, and I'd dispute whether that is part of the story, far less underpinning it.

The timing is off for the increase of magic to connect to the great ranging, which happened after the dragons and Others.  If I had to tie magic's increase relative to Westerous before the dragons, I'd guess either Mance, sacrifices at Whitetree or the burning of Rickard and Brandon Stark - if Bloodraven was responsible, why now?  Why not when he became a greenseer?

I disagree about magic generally growing - evidence is pretty clear that the dragons are increase magic.  This doesn't mean other things didn't increase magic, as we've seen magic growing before the dragons hatch.

From GRRM's comments, the concept of a "dark lord" is tied to people who consider themselves evil, not people with power.  Euron certainly has a lot of power, as Bran likely will soon, and Melisandre has power too.  I don't think power makes someone a dark lord according to GRRM.  Someone hidden manipulating events behind the scenes seems entirely inline with what we've read, but someone being responsible for magic's return doesn't take someone with power, especially if they increased magic by accident.

I can't find the SSM, but GRRM said in the end we'd learn why the seasons are off, and if we see Asshai, it would be something that happened a long time ago.  I bet we see a power grab by a human magic user (or more than 1) that throws the seasons off in Asshai.

[Black Crow]

41 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I can't find the SSM, but GRRM said in the end we'd learn why the seasons are off, and if we see Asshai, it would be something that happened a long time ago.  I bet we see a power grab by a human magic user (or more than 1) that throws the seasons off in Asshai.

I think you're talking about at least two different SSMs. I can recall him talking of the seasons being off  and about ancient Asshai but it wasn't in the same breath - which would indeed throw an interesting light on things.

What is absolutely fundamental to all of this is the dodgy seasons, which he has very firmly denied to have a cosmological reason - implying that it was deep magic rather than an eccentric orbit or anything like that, but this happened a very long time ago and any modern actors, may fancy themselves as players, but are not the begetters of what's going on.

As to dark lords, I'm sticking by my opinion. Whatever is happening isn't the work of an individual, whatever the purity of his or her motives

[Brad Stark]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

Exactly what's happened to Victarion in unclear; that's exactly why GRRM broke his POV narration rule in that chapter, to hide that.

I wouldn't say he's no longer alive, or is transforming into something else, though.

The alternative is that there is no secret to hide, Victorian is no longer alive, which is why he no longer has a point of view.  Whatever is running around in Victoria's body is not Victorian. 

[JNR]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

The alternative is that there is no secret to hide, Victorian is no longer alive, which is why he no longer has a point of view.  Whatever is running around in Victoria's body is not Victorian. 

Well, first, I agree that Victarion is not Victorian.  For one thing, he's far too rude and open about sex!

Second, let's recall that GRRM is quite deliberate in his choice of chapter titles; they reflect the POV.

Victarion and Moqorro do their secret business in a chapter headed "The Iron Suitor." 

We then get a chapter headed "Victarion."  And it's just what we would expect; it's full of Victarion's private thoughts, and those are the same kinds of thoughts he had before.

Quote

Near the end, before the smoking ketch was swallowed by the sea, the cries of the seven sweetlings changed to joyous song, it seemed to Victarion Greyjoy. A great wind came up then, a wind that filled their sails and swept them north and east and north again, toward Meereen and its pyramids of many-colored bricks. On wings of song I fly to you, Daenerys, the iron captain thought.

We see from this, as well as the chapter title, that he is still quite himself.

[Black Crow]

True, but on the other hand we have a POV chapter from Mel despite some very definite doubts as to her true nature

[The Chequered Raven]

On 1/14/2019 at 11:43 PM, JNR said:

I propose that the stone dragon (singular -- not dragons) that Mel talks about waking is shown in the event from Dany's HOTU vision and will occur in a future book, and furthermore, it will not be a literal dragon (or Dany would have thought of it as one).   Mel thinks of it as a dragon because that is the term used in prophecy, but such terms are inexact and prophecies can be misleading.

Possible, but for me the Summerhall-tragedy comes to my mind here:

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire."

Beeing a Targarayan site, there would been surely Stone-Dragons and other Beasts at the towers and buildings. Whatever happend there, it was a fire, very likely an explosion, so imagine Dany sees in her vision just the moment when the explosion took place, the explosion who will blast the Tower in pieces...