Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[JNR]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

True, but on the other hand we have a POV chapter from Mel despite some very definite doubts as to her true nature

That's a great chapter, IMO.  The best in a very large book and one of my favorites in the series.

But whatever else you want to take away from it, it's plain that her private thoughts in that chapter map very closely to the Mel we've seen since ACOK -- for instance, her religious zealotry.  I don't think anybody or anything else has taken control of her body.

6 hours ago, The Chequered Raven said:

Possible, but for me the Summerhall-tragedy comes to my mind here:

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire."

Yet another interesting possibility.  I think we've seen half a dozen or more options presented so far and it's hard for me to consider any of them objectively stronger or weaker than others.

Perhaps we could make some headway by analyzing this vision on a more abstract level.

Do we think the stone beast a symbol of something else, or a literal representation?  The HOTU visions seem to contain both.

If it happened in the past, I think it must have been a symbol.  But if it happens in the future, that's not so clear to me.

[Brad Stark]

Hard to ignore the smoking tower in Dany's vision which was also present for Summer's vision.

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Hard to ignore the smoking tower in Dany's vision which was also present for Summer's vision.

Given that Winterfell was burning at the time, I don't thing Summer was being visionary in seeing a smoking tower.

 

The dragon thingey is a different matter

[Matthew.]

Just some thoughts on "shadow fire:"

Most immediately and intuitively this evokes Mel - and I still think she's the most likely culprit to fulfill the vision - but there are a couple other figures and magics to which I think it might relate.

For one, it could relate to some of the other Red Priests, or R'hllorism as a whole; R'hllor is the God of Flame and Shadow.

Moqorro himself is called "Black Flame,' and he is presently attached to the Greyjoy fleet and headed toward battle at Meereen with a horn related to dragons--all of which could be a recipe to fulfill the corresponding "stone beast" and "smoking tower" elements of the vision in some manner.

There's also Thoros and Stoneheart, but that's a little abstract for my tastes. 

Another version of shadow fire could be the Glass Candles; some of the figures and locations this would bring into the mix would be Marwyn, Oldtown, and possibly Quaithe.   Edit: Assuming the "slayer of lies" part is important (and I think it is), glass candles also have a lot of upside in terms of playing a role in perpetuating a lie or a fraud.

Finally, it could be a symbol for the Blackfyres, as is suggested by those that think the "stone beast" is Connington.
________________

With all of that in mind, my inclination would be toward three broad scenarios:

-Melisandre attempts to wake dragons from stone

-Victarion and Moqorro sound the horn, possibly resulting in some kind of unintended consequence--perhaps rather than stealing one of Dany's dragons, they bind or awaken something else

-Something involving Oldtown, which could involve either whatever House Hightower has been up to - as raised by JNR a few pages ago - or perhaps some attack by Euron
 

[Lady Rhodes]

32 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

Something involving Oldtown, which could involve either whatever House Hightower has been up to

I am rereading Feast for my tidbit project, and something that really stuck out to me this time was Obara and her wanting to take an army to Oldtown.  Why? I get that she is the daughter of an Oldtown whore, but why would that cause her to want to bring the whole city to torch, especially if she left there so young? 

In addition, I just finished reading Fire and Blood, and the Hightowers feature prominently in Targaryen and Westerosi history, yet they have been fairly absent during all of this conflict. 

Another interesting point I learned from my tidbit project, too, is that "supposedly" you can see the Wall from the Hightower.  Now, I doubt that you really can, but where did that saying come from?  Is the Hightower supposed to be a beacon of sorts?

[Brad Stark]

47 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Given that Winterfell was burning at the time, I don't thing Summer was being visionary in seeing a smoking tower.

 

The dragon thingey is a different matter

Summer literally saw a smoking tower.  We don't know if he literally saw a dragon or a vision of a dragon or something that looked like a dragon.  But it is tempting to connect both events as they both have smoking towers. 

[Melifeather]

21 minutes ago, Lady Rhodes said:

I am rereading Feast for my tidbit project, and something that really stuck out to me this time was Obara and her wanting to take an army to Oldtown.  Why? I get that she is the daughter of an Oldtown whore, but why would that cause her to want to bring the whole city to torch, especially if she left there so young? 

In addition, I just finished reading Fire and Blood, and the Hightowers feature prominently in Targaryen and Westerosi history, yet they have been fairly absent during all of this conflict. 

Another interesting point I learned from my tidbit project, too, is that "supposedly" you can see the Wall from the Hightower.  Now, I doubt that you really can, but where did that saying come from?  Is the Hightower supposed to be a beacon of sorts?

Her Sand sister, Sarella is suspected to be the acolyte, Alleras - aka the Sphinx, at the Citadel in Oldtown. If true, what are her motives? She's earned three links of a maester's chain, so she's a quick learner. Perhaps she's really there to spy?

[Black Crow]

4 hours ago, JNR said:

That's a great chapter, IMO.  The best in a very large book and one of my favorites in the series.

But whatever else you want to take away from it, it's plain that her private thoughts in that chapter map very closely to the Mel we've seen since ACOK -- for instance, her religious zealotry.  I don't think anybody or anything else has taken control of her body.

 

True, but when we finally see behind her glamour I'm pretty confident that we'll see the same smoking pork crackling displayed by Victorian

[Brad Stark]

From Mel's POV, we know she was really a girl named 'melody'. But otherwise, we don't know she is who she says because she has a POV.  A non human, possessed human or other unusual being is still capable of having a POV. I don't think we can infer anything at all about Mel or her condition because she was given a POV.  We don't know for certain, but Mel appears to have lost her humanity slowly, rather than in a single event. 

Similarly, I don't think Victarion or Lady Stoneheart lost POV because of their state.  Rather they are different characters.  The old characters were POV characters and the new ones are not. 

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Summer literally saw a smoking tower.  We don't know if he literally saw a dragon or a vision of a dragon or something that looked like a dragon.  But it is tempting to connect both events as they both have smoking towers. 

If Bran saw something besides just smoke and the comet, I would bet on a shadow. From F&B we get this version of how Syrax was killed:

Quote

As others fled, the story went, the one-handed prophet stood fearless and alone against the ravening beast, calling on the Seven for succor, till the Warrior himself took form, thirty feet tall. In his hand was a black blade made of smoke that turned to steel as he swung it, cleaving the head of Syrax from her body.

And the quick disappearance reminds me of this:

Quote

Two arms wriggled free, grasping, black fingers coiling around Melisandre’s straining thighs, pushing, until the whole of the shadow slid out into the world and rose taller than Davos, tall as the tunnel, towering above the boat. He had only an instant to look at it before it was gone, twisting between the the bars of the portcullis and racing across the surface of the water, but that instant was long enough.

And this:

Quote

She heard Renly begin a jest, his shadow moving, lifting its sword, black on green, candles guttering, shivering, something was queer, wrong, and then she saw Renly's sword still in its scabbard, sheathed still, but the shadowsword . . .

"Cold," said Renly in a small puzzled voice, a heartbeat before the steel of his gorget parted like cheesecloth beneath the shadow of a blade that was not there. He had time to make a small thick gasp before the blood came gushing out of his throat.

"Your Gr—no!" cried Brienne the Blue when she saw that evil flow, sounding as scared as any little girl. The king stumbled into her arms, a sheet of blood creeping down the front of his armor, a dark red tide that drowned his green and gold. More candles guttered out. Renly tried to speak, but he was choking on his own blood. His legs collapsed, and only Brienne's strength held him up. She threw back her head and screamed, wordless in her anguish.

 

[LynnS]

53 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

True, but when we finally see behind her glamour I'm pretty confident that we'll see the same smoking pork crackling displayed by Victorian

Geez that creeps me out.  lol  Even more so than the thought of Bob's head attached to the Mountain's body.

[Lady Rhodes]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Her Sand sister, Sarella is suspected to be the acolyte, Alleras - aka the Sphinx, at the Citadel in Oldtown. If true, what are her motives? She's earned three links of a maester's chain, so she's a quick learner. Perhaps she's really there to spy?

I've thought of that, but Nymeria or Tyene (I can't remember which) notes that "Obara hates that city as much as our little sister loves it"  So I don't think she is being a spy for Obara, at least.

[Janneyc1]

24 minutes ago, Tucu said:

If Bran saw something besides just smoke and the comet, I would bet on a shadow. From F&B we get this version of how Syrax was killed:

 

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

Summer literally saw a smoking tower.  We don't know if he literally saw a dragon or a vision of a dragon or something that looked like a dragon.  But it is tempting to connect both events as they both have smoking towers. 

Well the burning of Winterfell could be important magically. Winterfell clearly has magic associated with it, there was clearly a ton of blood split there, and obviously there was fire. It is possible that the combination of those three could have resulted in a magical event happening. We have speculated before about the meaning of the names of First men buildings and Winterfell has two potential ones in my mind: 1. an Ice dragon named Winter died there, creating the pool in the godswood or 2: The Battle for the Dawn was won there, marking the place that the Others were defeated. 

I would speculate that Winterfell could be the prison for the leader of the Others, held deep within the Crypts, guarded by the kings of Winter. Essentially, the Leader of the Others spirit would be held there. The magic of Winterfell, the fire and the blood could have all interacted and loosened the bindings on the Leader of the Others. the Dragon that Summer saw could have been a warning that the Leader was closer to being able to escape. It ties back to why there must always be a stark in Winterfell. 

[Melifeather]

On 1/27/2019 at 11:46 AM, JNR said:

Exactly what's happened to Victarion in unclear; that's exactly why GRRM broke his POV narration rule in that chapter, to hide that.

I wouldn't say he's no longer alive, or is transforming into something else, though.

GRRM has his reasons for sprinkling titled chapters amongst regular POVs. I believe each titled chapter tells two stories with a second one hidden among the parallels, symbolism, and metaphors. While I haven't begun scrutinizing the Iron Suitor, I have determined that Victarion is mirroring a Captain-General of the Golden Company. In The Reaver chapter there were many parallels to Aegon "Bittersteel" Rivers, but my early impression of the Iron Suitor chapter hints at a more current Captain-General. Right now I'm leaning towards Myles "Blackheart" Toyne, because of two reasons: 1) he has a similar single-nickname, and 2) he was friends with Jon Connington.

The chapter mentions Victarion's age as being 54, which implies that we're looking at an aging Golden Company. A few paragraphs down and he brings up his age again - 54. This may be a clue that we should pay attention to. Maybe Victarion is not just mirroring Myles Toyne, but Harry Strickland - aka Homeless Harry, since the Golden Company has only every had five Captain-Generals. Myles was number 4 and Harry is number 5.

Victarion thinks how his fleet had shrunk from 100 to 93, and that they’re not just his ships. The ships once made up the Iron Fleet and belonged - not just to a single lord, but to the Seastone Chair itself. Likewise Aegor Rivers may have been the founder of the Golden Company, but the men - the sellswords - came from every kingdom in Westeros. Furthermore, beginning with Myles Toyne they were no longer led by a Blackfyre. They have been freed from their original purpose and don't belong to anyone anymore.

During my analysis of the Cat of the Canals chapter, I had determined that ships were metaphors for specific people, so the great cog Noble Lady is a metaphor for an important highborn maiden - someone that a Captain-general had as a captive on his ship. The Nobel Lady was on her way to Oldtown by way of Gulltown, Duskendale, and King’s Landing when the Iron Victory took possession of her. There are actually a few hints in that last sentence. First, I had already identified Gulltown as being the Boltons and their Dreadfort. Second, we should be able to identify who the "Iron Victory" is by looking at who really won the Iron Throne. Certainly Robert did, but I think this ship could also be Tywin or Cersei Lannister. Lastly, our main clue to help us identity the "Nobel Lady" is her cargo of “salt cod, whale oil, and pickled herring.” 

I have speculated that Maegor's Holdfast was the true location of the tower of joy, and that Ned found Lyanna dying in the black cells after the Sack of Kings Landing. After she died he got help from the Silent Sisters to prepare Lyanna's corpse. I speculated that they packed her in a barrel of salt, and that this was a mirror to when Tyrion escaped Kings Landing inside a barrel. Varys had provided enough wine for Tyrion to get "pickled" in his barrel. Lastly, we have the theory that Craster's sons are a red herring.

The cargo of the Nobel Lady indicates that her identity is Lyanna Stark. I don't know how either Harry or Myles would be involved yet, but it appears they came into contact with some "whale oil". In the Cat of the Canals chapter there is an Ibbenese whaler said to "reek of tar, blood, and whale oil."  The description of being “huge” along with “whale” hints at a connection to Wayman Manderly. Wayman “reeks”, because currently he’s in an alliance with Roose and Ramsay Bolton, who is a crew member of the Brazen Monkey. The “blood” and “tar” are in reference to the children Ramsay murdered and tarred to take the places of Bran and Rickon. 

It's too soon for me to speculate who Moqorro is mirroring, but I'd need to review if either Myles or Harry also had an injured hand. Of course "hand" could be "Hand", and Jon Connington did consider Myles his old friend.

 

[alienarea]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Summer literally saw a smoking tower.  We don't know if he literally saw a dragon or a vision of a dragon or something that looked like a dragon.  But it is tempting to connect both events as they both have smoking towers. 

And maybe Summer is short-sighted and it was a bird.

[JNR]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

True, but when we finally see behind her glamour

So far, it can't even be demonstrated that she has a glamour.  That's really just fan speculation.

1 hour ago, Brad Stark said:

From Mel's POV, we know she was really a girl named 'melody'. But otherwise, we don't know she is who she says because she has a POV.  A non human, possessed human or other unusual being is still capable of having a POV.

Let's imagine that she and some other entity are both in her body at the same time. 

Maybe it took her over or it's in the process of taking her over.

In that case, we would certainly see it in her thoughts, because it's her POV chapter and it's loaded with her thoughts. 

For instance, she might be thinking: "R'hllor save me!! I'm sharing my body with some other entity and it's taking over!!"  Or: "Aaaagh, I lost control of my body two books ago!!"

But Melisandre's thoughts all, without exception, show she is simply herself, just as Victarion's all show he is simply himself.

 

[dialt]

On 1/28/2019 at 9:37 AM, The Chequered Raven said:

On 1/15/2019 at 12:43 AM, JNR said:

I propose that the stone dragon (singular -- not dragons) that Mel talks about waking is shown in the event from Dany's HOTU vision and will occur in a future book, and furthermore, it will not be a literal dragon (or Dany would have thought of it as one).   Mel thinks of it as a dragon because that is the term used in prophecy, but such terms are inexact and prophecies can be misleading.

Possible, but for me the Summerhall-tragedy comes to my mind here:

"From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire."

Beeing a Targarayan site, there would been surely Stone-Dragons and other Beasts at the towers and buildings. Whatever happend there, it was a fire, very likely an explosion, so imagine Dany sees in her vision just the moment when the explosion took place, the explosion who will blast the Tower in pieces...

The Aeron's chapter from TWOW made me believe that Euron learned something about the prophecy, that he believes to be the "chosen one" and that whatever he's going to do that will cause the stone beast to take shape, from the Tower of Old Town. That's my take. But I must admit, I've never thought about Summerhall, and... it works. Nice one. It may be, absolutely. 

That said, I came here because I have a question for you all. 
I don't know if the issue of the faces carved into the weirwood trees has ever been addressed/discussed in the past.
I tried to check in the heretic's guide thread but I honestly got lost. 
However, if that's the case, please forgive me and please post the link. I'd be please to read it. 

If not or if you want to know why I am asking... well it's because something that just passed through my mind and I don't know what to think about it.
In short, we are led to believe that the CotF "only" carved those faces. That they did so, in the Dawn Age, before the First Men came in Westeros. And that's fine, but... one of the fist thing that Bran notices meeting Leaf for the first time, is that even tho she looks "human", her eyes (and those of all COTF) are particularly large. Bigger than those of Men.
And I don't remeber any charater observing the faces into weirwood trees and noticing something anomalous in the dimensions of the eyes. Sometimes they do so with the mouths, but never, as far as I remeber, with the eyes. 
And it may be interesting: if the CoTF - and they only - carved those faces, then why they don't have eyes like theirs? 

Is there any explaination, theory or whaterver about that? Or am I missing something...?

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, lalt said:

The Aeron's chapter from TWOW made me believe that Euron learned something about the prophecy, that he believes to be the "chosen one" and that whatever he's going to do that will cause the stone beast to take shape, from the Tower of Old Town. That's my take. But I must admit, I've never thought about Summerhall, and... it works. Nice one. It may be, absolutely. 

That said, I came here because I have a question for you all. 
I don't know if the issue of the faces carved into the weirwood trees has ever been addressed/discussed in the past.
I tried to check in the heretic's guide thread but I honestly got lost. 
However, if that's the case, please forgive me and please post the link. I'd be please to read it. 

If not or if you want to know why I am asking... well it's because something that just passed through my mind and I don't know what to think about it.
In short, we are led to believe that the CotF "only" carved those faces. That they did so, in the Dawn Age, before the First Men came in Westeros. And that's fine, but... one of the fist thing that Bran notices meeting Leaf for the first time, is that even tho she looks "human", her eyes (and those of all COTF) are particularly large. Bigger than those of Men.
And I don't remeber any charater observing the faces into weirwood trees and noticing something anomalous in the dimensions of the eyes. Sometimes they do so with the mouths, but never, as far as I remeber, with the eyes. 
And it may be interesting: if the CoTF - and they only - carved those faces, then why they don't have eyes like theirs? 

Is there any explaination, theory or whaterver about that? Or am I missing something...?

We have discussed the possibility that the wierwoods take the face of the people sacrificed to awaken/feed them. In the sample chapters for TWoW we get a case of roots with the faces of the CoTF

Spoiler

And all at once she found herself in another cavern, five times as big as the last one, surrounded by a forest of stone columns. Daemon Sand moved to her side and raised his torch. “Look how the stone’s been shaped,” he said. “Those columns, and the wall there. See them?”

“Faces,” said Arianne. So many sad eyes, staring.

“This place belonged to the children of the forest.”

I have speculated in the past that these are the CoTF sacrificed for the Hammer of the waters

[Brad Stark]

We don't get very detailed descriptions of the wierwood faces, so I always assumed they were crude carvings, vaguely face like, not enough to know if they were CotF or men or something else.  

In our world, a face carved into a tree would disappear in a decade or so if it didn't kill the tree.  And we are told all the trees on the Island of Faces are carved, not just wierwoods. 

If the wierwoods weren't carved before men arrived, and the arrival of men is what started the carving, it makes sense men's faces would be carved.

 I wouldn't be surprised if we learned the carvings are a likeness of a victim sacrificed to the wierwood.  Maybe this was Bran's vision. 

[Tucu]

Going back to the visions for a moment. Have you considered Rickon as the methaphorical stone beast in "a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire"?

He is the wildest of the Stark kids and in ACoK he flees to Skagos (that means stone). If he is a ward/captive of House Magnar he would be like the adoptive son of the Lord of stoneborn