Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[Tucu]

1 hour ago, lalt said:

... I am still under the impression that maybe the pact was made between the children and “some” FM. Not all FM.

The legend talks about the wise men of the First Men, but even among the main bloodlines it seems that the Pact was not respected for long. We get hints for the Durrandons, Blackwoods and Starks.

[redriver]

2 hours ago, Tucu said:

There are two methaporical horns that could be the Horn of Joramun.

The first one is the NW's brothers, "I am the Horn that wakes the sleepers" doesn't sound that different from "woke giants from the earth"

The second one is of the the forms of crescent moon described as "horned moon" in several chapters. For example:

 

Here's another way of interpreting it using the comet idea.The Horn of Winter was originally a comet (or chunk of a moon maybe) that was brought down,or "blown" by a guy called Joramun using magic.This would look icy or white in the night sky with a curved tail.It would glow red on entering the atmosphere.

"Woke giants from the earth" is imo an obvious metaphor for earthquakes.So, big enough to shatter the Arm of Dorne either by direct impact or close enough to cause earthquakes and subsequent flooding.

This is not to say there isn't an actual Horn as well.The Hermetic principle "As above,so below" seems to be in use in the story.The Sword of the Morning is both a constellation and the office of the knight who wields Dawn.The celestial references start coming thick and fast when you consider "Dawn" was said to have been forged from material from a "fallen star" at Starfall.Why anyone apart from the Others would want to use that horn then or now is another matter.

We can look at the Lightbringer tale in celestial terms too!

Another time..

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So if Sam's horn is indeed the Grail, then what is its purpose. I agree that Mance is now looking for it at Winterfell, but Winterfell is south of the Wall and so are Mance's people. As advertised it was sought to breach the Wall so that they could flood through and escape the blue-eyed lot. Now, the last thing Mance should want is to breach the Wall and let the blue-eyed lot through so why is he still looking for it?

If the horn wakes the sleepers, who are the sleepers?  Jon wonders if blowing the horn will wake the sleepers, will it also put them back to sleep.

Quote

They're not wearing skins, Jon realized. That's hair. Shaggy pelts covered their bodies, thick below the waist, sparser above. The stink that came off them was choking, but perhaps that was the mammoths. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter, and woke giants from the earth. He looked for great swords ten feet long, but saw only clubs. Most were just the limbs of dead trees, some still trailing shattered branches. A few had stone balls lashed to the ends to make colossal mauls. The song never says if the horn can put them back to sleep.   SOS Jon II

I think that sleepers refers to the dead and the undead seem like the best candidates to me.  The small horn can't be winded in it's current state since it is cracked.  But if it's repaired and made into a 'drinking cup'; it may well be a cup of ice.  I suspect the horn binds men to it's will among other things. 

Horns are also used to wake the Watch from sleep and the small horn is of the type typical for a man of the Watch to carry. 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

"Did she?" Tormund slapped his thigh and hooted. "She burned that fine big horn, aye. A bloody sin, I call it. A thousand years old, that was. We found it in a giant's grave, and no man o' us had ever seen a horn so big. That must have been why Mance got the

Jon turned in his saddle, frowning. And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth. That huge horn with its bands of old gold, incised with ancient runes … had Mance Rayder lied to him, or was Tormund lying now? If Mance's horn was just a feint, where is the true horn?

I think the true horn is hidden in plain sight with Sam, but it must be repaired whenever Sam gets around to remembering it.

Quote

A Storm of Swords - Jon IV

"Not for fear!" She kicked savagely at the ice beneath her with a heel, chopping out a chunk. "I'm crying because we never found the Horn of Winter. We opened half a hundred graves and let all those shades loose in the world, and never found the Horn of Joramun to bring this cold thing down!"

 

What is the cold thing?  Is it the source of the cold magic?

 

[St Daga]

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

This would make some sense to what Mance seems to be searching for at Winterfell, and his interest does seem to lie in the crypts. But if he believes the horn is in Winterfell, what does he even have his wildlings digging for in the Frostfangs? Why go to all that wasted energy? Was it just to fool his wildling followers?

He probably thinks that the horn is an ancient grave, but have no idea in which one. He ran out of significant graves north of The Wall.

I can see this, but we also have Mance coming to Winterfell two other times before his stint as Abel. I think he was looking for something each time, and I don't think it was to check out the southron King. He comes with Qorgyle when he is still part of the watch, and than he arrives when Robert Baratheon comes north. I have wondered if Mance hasn't been looking for the Horn of Winter all this time. If he would have had it years ago, it certainly would have made it easier to gain control of the wildlings and become their leader. Just a line of speculation that I have wondered on previously! I also am not sure that the Horn of Winter is at Winterfell, as I really think Sam might already have it and carried it all the way to Oldtown.

 

21 hours ago, Tucu said:

Etimology time for the Horn of Jor-amun! For Jor there are some options: day in Old French, horse/stallion in Old Norse or maybe jǫrmun in Old Norse meaning great/strong (Stark?) For amun we have Amun/Ammon, the Hidden One, god of wind and later god of sun and creation (as Amun-Ra). He was later associated with the bull and the ram, so he is a Horned God. Could it be significant that the Stallion constellation is known as the Horned Lord by the wildlings?

For the full meaning of Joramun, I would go with Stark Hidden One, god of wind :-)

We have 3 gods of wind in ASOIAF:

-The Storm God of the Ironborn, enermy of the Drowned God and the Grey King. He lives in the Cloudy Hall, sends the storms to destroy the ironborn and has ravens as its creatures.

-The Goddess of the Wind of the Stormlands that fought Durran after he stole her daughter Elenei. The goddess and her husband (Sea God) smashed Durran's castles until Brandon the Builder built Storm's End for him

-Lord of the Skies of the Three Sisters; his storms were considered sacred by the men of the Three Sisters.

It certainly takes wind to blow a horn, so some of these name connections do work. I do like these possible wind connections. Are you thinking that Joramun is descended from the Storm God, which might have implications for the Durrandon/Baratheon line?

 

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

There are two methaporical horns that could be the Horn of Joramun.

The first one is the NW's brothers, "I am the Horn that wakes the sleepers" doesn't sound that different from "woke giants from the earth"

 The second one is of the shapes of the crescent moon described as "horned moon" in several chapters. For example:

While I am inclined to think that this "horned moon" might be a hint at cuckholding in the text, I do like this possible connection to the Horn of Joramun. The horned moon, or crescent moon is quite a simple shape, and perhaps that could indicate that the Horn of Joramun is also more simple than elaborate. Again, I wonder about the horn Jon found and gave to Sam. The horn that makes no sound, or at least no sound that human ears can hear. Or maybe it needs Sam from Horn Hill to blow on it to raise some sound?  Or maybe it needs to be blown from the Hightower. It seems there might be some connection between the Wall and the Hightower. 

[St Daga]

19 hours ago, Matthew. said:

23 hours ago, St Daga said:

This would make some sense to what Mance seems to be searching for at Winterfell, and his interest does seem to lie in the crypts. But if he believes the horn is in Winterfell, what does he even have his wildlings digging for in the Frostfangs? Why go to all that wasted energy? Was it just to fool his wildling followers?

I think Mance is chasing the very thin leads that he has to work with, based on legend and song. It's suggested that Joramun either broke his strength on the Wall, or was defeated by the Stark in Winterfell. Some of the broad strokes prospects that raises is that the Horn was either buried with Joramun (or any descendants that might have claimed the Horn), or claimed as a spoil of war by either the Watch or the Stark in Winterfell.

Mance already spent most of his life as a ranger, and he had the Frostfangs project, so it may be that the tombs of the Starks would be the next place he'd search, assuming he's still interesting in claiming the Horn as leverage. 

I have wondered if there is more than one person that  is included in the Joramun story. The king who broke his strength against the wall or the Starks on the south side of the wall, AND the person who helped bring the Night's King down. Maybe "Joramun" is an ancient title or something? One thing that we are told about Joramun is that it was he "who blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth" Waking giants from earth does have hints of large scale rumbling and earth moving, perhaps an earthquake. Maybe this horn was actually used to help create a magic that is similar to the Hammer of the Waters, or what ever was done to break the Arm of Dorne? Maybe there are two horns over all these years, and the stories have merged into one, And the legend became one horn instead of two, one blower instead of two? Maybe we are looking for two horns, and they both are tied to Westeros or the Wall. 

[St Daga]

32 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think that sleepers refers to the dead and the undead seem like the best candidates to me.  The small horn can't be winded in it's current state since it is cracked.  But if it's repaired and made into a 'drinking cup'; it may well be a cup of ice.  I suspect the horn binds men to it's will among other things. 

Oh, I really like this. It really embraces the idea that horns can have duel purposes and be used for drinking cups OR for making signal horns! Is this then the ". . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . ."?  Would this make the horn that Victarion/Moqorro have the "Cup of Fire", a horn from the Lands of the Long Summer, also known as Valyria, while a horn from the Lands of Always Winter the "Cup of Ice".

[redriver]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

What is the cold thing?  Is it the source of the cold magic?

 

Cold thing down...bring this cold thing down.....down thing cold bring.

Damn,it's got me stumped.

No,wait.....

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, St Daga said:

Oh, I really like this. It really embraces the idea that horns can have duel purposes and be used for drinking cups OR for making signal horns! Is this then the ". . drink from the cup of ice . . . drink from the cup of fire . . ."?  Would this make the horn that Victarion/Moqorro have the "Cup of Fire", a horn from the Lands of the Long Summer, also known as Valyria, while a horn from the Lands of Always Winter the "Cup of Ice".

We don't yet know what Dragonbinder will do to Victarion.  We just know that you can't wind it and remain alive.  I'd just say that sorcery has a price.

[Melifeather]

On a lighter note...GRRM implies that he’s left his writing cabin...

Quote

Happy Groundhogs Day!  I, too, have emerged from my burrow 

Can we hope he’s finished editing Winds?

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So if Sam's horn is indeed the Grail, then what is its purpose. I agree that Mance is now looking for it at Winterfell, but Winterfell is south of the Wall and so are Mance's people. As advertised it was sought to breach the Wall so that they could flood through and escape the blue-eyed lot. Now, the last thing Mance should want is to breach the Wall and let the blue-eyed lot through so why is he still looking for it?

If we return to the concept of the Wall as a magical demarcation between Ice and Fire and only incidentally a physical barrier, then we can see the Horn/Grail as a means of breaking down that barrier and ending the conflict, just as the Berlin Wall was broken down, ending the Cold [!] War just months before GRRM started writing this everyday tale of ordinary country-folk.

I thought that Mance might still want the Horn as a threat to negotiate better terms for the Free Folk, and for himself, but you raise an important point.

There seems to be general agreement that Chekhov's Horn will eventually be sounded, and usher in the final arc of the story, but under what circumstances? "Someone will sound the Horn without realizing which Horn it is" is always a possibility, but, as your post elaborates, "who would want to destroy the Wall, and why?" is an under-analyzed aspect of Horn discussions; this seems particularly relevant if GRRM can deliver on his promise that the Others are not just a generic evil army (questions of leadership aside).

[alienarea]

Have we ever considered that the horn may not only bring down the walk, but as the wall is build on magic, will bring down magic itself?

 

[Tucu]

6 hours ago, St Daga said:

I can see this, but we also have Mance coming to Winterfell two other times before his stint as Abel. I think he was looking for something each time, and I don't think it was to check out the southron King. He comes with Qorgyle when he is still part of the watch, and than he arrives when Robert Baratheon comes north. I have wondered if Mance hasn't been looking for the Horn of Winter all this time. If he would have had it years ago, it certainly would have made it easier to gain control of the wildlings and become their leader. Just a line of speculation that I have wondered on previously! I also am not sure that the Horn of Winter is at Winterfell, as I really think Sam might already have it and carried it all the way to Oldtown.

It certainly takes wind to blow a horn, so some of these name connections do work. I do like these possible wind connections. Are you thinking that Joramun is descended from the Storm God, which might have implications for the Durrandon/Baratheon line?

While I am inclined to think that this "horned moon" might be a hint at cuckholding in the text, I do like this possible connection to the Horn of Joramun. The horned moon, or crescent moon is quite a simple shape, and perhaps that could indicate that the Horn of Joramun is also more simple than elaborate. Again, I wonder about the horn Jon found and gave to Sam. The horn that makes no sound, or at least no sound that human ears can hear. Or maybe it needs Sam from Horn Hill to blow on it to raise some sound?  Or maybe it needs to be blown from the Hightower. It seems there might be some connection between the Wall and the Hightower. 

For the god of wind I am not looking for a single person but for magical beings capable of controlling the wind and storms. Bran, Melisandre, Moqorro and maybe Euron have shown some power over the wind and weather.

For the horn I am looking for things that could be god-sized. Thus my mention of the horned moon. I just thought of another option; in geography a glacial horn is a mountain that has been shaped by erosion from glaciars in multiple sides. The Matterhorn is an example of this. Funnily enough the horns are created when other glacial formations (cirques) in the form of a bowl meet and suffer further erosion. So we have bowl(s) that end as a horn (an inversion of a horn ending as a drinking bowl).

Maybe this can apply to Horn Hill or some place in the Frostfangs or in the Lands of Always Winter that Bran saw is his 3EC dream. If the Horn of Winter is a mountain and Winterfell means Winter Mountain (from Old Norse fell), are both the same thing? Can a mountain be blown? I invoke Mirri as witness :

Quote

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east," said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

 

[Brad Stark]

I always believed the sleepers were the greenseers who have gone into the wood.  The horn will be bring them back with all their power. 

[asongofheresy]

13 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

On a lighter note...GRRM implies that he’s left his writing cabin...

Can we hope he’s finished editing Winds?

Hype train :) 

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Jova Snow said:

Hype train

Well last June he indicated the book was in the editing stage.

Quote

 

“As much as I enjoyed working with Gardner, I did not have the time. WINDS OF WINTER was late and getting later, and the editing had taken more of my time and energy than I thought it would.

“‘I can’t take on anything more right now,’ I told him. ‘We’ll do them later, once I’ve delivered WINDS.’

 

 

[asongofheresy]

1 hour ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well last June he indicated the book was in the editing stage.

 

Hype hızlı tren :) this is a great day thank you for the information :D 

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

I always believed the sleepers were the greenseers who have gone into the wood.  The horn will be bring them back with all their power. 

I wonder what Ghost has to do with it since he belongs to the old gods and brought Jon to the hidden cache.  Ghost is also mute, like the horn. 

I think the horn will do multiple things.

[LynnS]

5 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

Well last June he indicated the book was in the editing stage.

 

That would be nice, but I know better than to count my chickens before they are hatched.

[Tucu]

15 minutes ago, LynnS said:

That would be nice, but I know better than to count my chickens before they are hatched.

Patience is required. On Groundhog Day he also wrote this in his blog:

Quote

For what it’s worth, I do not consider A SONG OF ICE AND FIRE to be a series.   It’s one story.   A huge complicated story, admittedly, one that will take seven volumes to tell (once I finish the last two)

I think he is going back into his writing borrow.

[dialt]

On 2/3/2019 at 1:42 PM, Tucu said:

The legend talks about the wise men of the First Men, but even among the main bloodlines it seems that the Pact was not respected for long. We get hints for the Durrandons, Blackwoods and Starks.

Yes, sure. But I am thinking about something a little different. And those legends may fit that idea (I won't call it "theory" because I am only trying to see if it may works).

In short the legends tell us something more: that the pact preceded (for a few centuries) the Long Night.

And in those stories you are mentioning it looks like there are 2 sides: on one side people like the Starks + the CotF and on the other side people like the Blackwoods.

So the question/idea is: what if that that part of the legend is also true and therefore the pact was made prior to the LN (not because of it as many of us suspect)?

That because there was some kind of competition, some power struggle among the FM.
And therefore, some of them - like the Starks -  signed the pact with the children to gain their help - and their magic  - vs "others" FM (people like the Blackwoods). With that help some those clans/families gained the lands that became their ancestral seats. And the children not only the forests but the protection of clans/families like the Starks, that became the "winning side" among the FM.

So after the pact - between the children and only some of the FM - fights, wars occurred between these two sides. Sacrificies maybe. Or maybe that is when the "tradition" to offer the entrails of traitors to the weirwood trees was born.

And that is how these outcasted FM - those not aligned to the pact - became the "Others".  

Something under those lines.

Sorry if I couldn't explain better myself, but I hope you get it.