Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[asongofheresy]

16 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

The banner reminds me of Bittersteel's sigil.

In his personal arms: a red stallion snorting flame with black dragon wings on a golden field. 

A combination of:
The red stallion is the sigil for House Bracken (mother was Barba Bracken)
The black dragon wings are from House Blackfyre

Ser Aegor Rivers/Bittersteel was also founder of the Golden Company, who Young Griff and company are now aligned with. 

Another Blackfyre Rebellion? 

I think it is interesting Daenerys sees her son under Blackfyre banners but I never thought the vision meant more than Rhaego would become? I suppose it is interesting to think Daenerys as the fake of our story. 

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still with you on this one and I think that the apparent differences stem from the different viewpoints. There was no CNN in those days. When the cataclysm happened those in the south watched the breaching of the landbridge, while those in the north were far more concerned by the flooding of the Neck or what became the Neck. In the face of the catastrophe they naturally assumed it was directed at them and knew little or nothing of what else was happening.

Looking at the maps from the Lands of Ice and Fire, I see a pattern of 3 big events at 3 choke points: 2 hammers and raising the Wall. The first at the Arm of Dorne with possible origin at the Rainwood, the second at Iron Islands/The Neck and the third one at The Wall (with possible origin at Winterfell)

[Brad Stark]

I think GRRM purposefully left it ambiguous how many times the Hammer was used, or if it even existed at all.  This is analogous to England being cut off as the English Channel went from dry land to water at the end of the last ice age.  People attribute supernatural causes to natural events (or vice versa in Westerous).  If people want to believe the Hammer made the neck swampy or destroyed the land bridge, the Hammer is as good an explanation as anything else. 

[Tucu]

Changing subject for a bit...Nightflyers is now available in Netflix (outside US). Just watched the first episode. Even though GRRM was not involved in the adaptation, it shares a lot of the magical elements of ASOIAF in a horror sci-fi setting. Seems to be worth a watch even if it is a low budget series.

BTW, I learned from a post by GRRM about Nightflyers that Melantha (Blackwood) for GRRM means dark flower or black flower. A combination of the greek melania (blackness) or melas (dark) and anthos (flower).  Reminds me of the black petals on her great granddaugther's hand.

Using the same etymology we can look at Melisandre, Mel would be black or dark. And keeping with the greek andre would be "man" or "warrior"...we get to "Mel is man", "darkness is man" or maybe "darkness warrior". So much for a woman serving the Lord of Light

[St Daga]

22 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

The banner reminds me of Bittersteel's sigil.

In his personal arms: a red stallion snorting flame with black dragon wings on a golden field. 

A combination of:
The red stallion is the sigil for House Bracken (mother was Barba Bracken)
The black dragon wings are from House Blackfyre

Ser Aegor Rivers/Bittersteel was also founder of the Golden Company, who Young Griff and company are now aligned with. 

Another Blackfyre Rebellion? 

 

6 hours ago, Jova Snow said:

I think it is interesting Daenerys sees her son under Blackfyre banners but I never thought the vision meant more than Rhaego would become? I suppose it is interesting to think Daenerys as the fake of our story. 

I agree the imagery of that banner behind Rhaego (if that is Rhaego) in Dany's vision does seem a bit like Bittersteel's personal sigil, although dragon wings do stand out an important part of Bittersteel's sigil that would not be mentioned here.  It is rather tempting to consider that Dany thinks she is of the trueborn Targaryen line, but she might actually be a descendant of the Blackfyre's, with a connection being made through Bittersteel, who founded the Golden Company which supported the Blackfyre contenders to the throne. But if that is the case, why not a banner of gold, to represent the Golden Company. Why the tie to Bittersteel? Unless Aegor did have children with Daemon Blackfyre's daughter Calla, and Dany is descended from that line? I have honestly never looked down this path much, but I would assume it has been discussed here.

It's possible the banner behind Rhaego is also just a combination of Targaryen fire and the Dothraki horse in a sigil. It would make sense that was what Dany would see in a vision if she is longing or wishing for her son, and it fits the idea of the horse she sees in Drogo's pyre, a grey stallion with a mane that is a nimbus of blue flame.

And something I have never noticed before but the text only gives us the word nimbus three times, once from Jon's POV when he thinks back to Othor burning, Dany in regards to Drogo's pyre, and Quentyn when he is attempting to tame one of Dany's dragons and uses a sheep to feed and calm the dragons. I am not sure if that word and whom it is used around is important or not! A nimbus is noted to be a halo or aura surrounding supernatural being.

[Brad Stark]

I never realized Melisandre was a name made up by GRRM.  This could tell us a lot. 

Behind the name suggests it is a variation of Melisende, which is German not Greek, and derived from the word for 'work' .   Plenty of real names such as Melanie are based on the Greek Mel as black without ominous implications.  Mel can also be from Latin, meaning 'honey' 

[St Daga]

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

Looking at the maps from the Lands of Ice and Fire, I see a pattern of 3 big events at 3 choke points: 2 hammers and raising the Wall. The first at the Arm of Dorne with possible origin at the Rainwood, the second at Iron Islands/The Neck and the third one at The Wall (with possible origin at Winterfell)

In my head, I have interpreted a successful Hammer that broke the Arm of Dorne, a less successful Hammer that only flooded the Neck, turned it into a marsh. If each was performed at a holy place, then the successful Hammer was probably at the Gods Eye, the less successful Hammer was north of the Neck. Moat Cailin is possible, but so is Winterfell, or even Long Lake, if water is important. It might also be that the important part is a large weirwood grove, so the Gods Eye still fits, but I am not sure what large weirwood grove we have north of the neck except for the grove that is North of Castle Black. That grove with it's nine weirwoods in a circle does remind me of the nine spikes on the crown of the Kings of Winter, but it's location leads me to think that was tied to the wall, and not something at the Neck.

I agree the location of the wall is a natural place to attempt to divide the continent again, but if so, why such a different method? In two, we see a destruction and separation, a "breaking", while with the wall, we see a building and separation, a "barrier", one that is manned. Could the difference be because the CofF performed the first two "magics" while mankind performed the third?

[Tucu]

56 minutes ago, Brad Stark said:

I never realized Melisandre was a name made up by GRRM.  This could tell us a lot. 

Behind the name suggests it is a variation of Melisende, which is German not Greek, and derived from the word for 'work' .   Plenty of real names such as Melanie are based on the Greek Mel as black without ominous implications.  Mel can also be from Latin, meaning 'honey' 

I didn't realize either until I read GRRM's etymology of Melantha. Melony (as in Lot Seven) seems to be a variation of Melanie, so the darkness theme seems to apply.

At the moment just a curiosity, but might mean something in TWoW.

[Melifeather]

If we're discussing meanings of names, I'll add one. Part of Melisandre's name sounds like Sandra, which is a derivative of Alexander - which means defender of man or man's defender. 

Even though Westeros is said to be as large as South America, its shape is that of England upside down. England had two walls built by the Romans: Hadrian's and Antonine's. The Wall's location is inspired of the further north Antonine's wall, and the Neck would be the location of Hadrian's wall if there was once an earlier wall built there. The black basalt stones the size of cottages might be explained if there was once a wall built across the Neck, which in turn was wiped out from the hammer of waters. The Children could have called down the hammer from the Moat Caillin fortress with the Arm of Dorne as the intended target - hoping that "Hadrian's Wall" could withstand it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian's_Wall#/media/File:Hadrians_Wall_map.svg

[Tucu]

8 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

If we're discussing meanings of names, I'll add one. Part of Melisandre's name sounds like Sandra, which is a derivative of Alexander - which means defender of man or man's defender. 

Even though Westeros is said to be as large as South America, its shape is that of England upside down. England had two walls built by the Romans: Hadrian's and Antonine's. The Wall's location is inspired of the further north Antonine's wall, and the Neck would be the location of Hadrian's wall if there was once an earlier wall built there. The black basalt stones the size of cottages might be explained if there was once a wall built across the Neck, which in turn was wiped out from the hammer of waters. The Children could have called down the hammer from the Moat Caillin fortress with the Arm of Dorne as the intended target - hoping that "Hadrian's Wall" could withstand it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadrian's_Wall#/media/File:Hadrians_Wall_map.svg

I like the Sandra/Alexander connection. So Melisandre could be "darkness defender of man" or "dark defender of man"?

[Matthew.]

20 hours ago, JNR said:

Seriously, now.  When I say "never found elsewhere," what I mean is there is no instance of either

1) A stone column we know to have been made by the CotF, or

2) A decorative face carved into stone we know to have been made by the CotF

Right, but what is the significance of citing "never found elsewhere in the text," if not argument from incredulity? We have only begun to know the CotF in earnest, so why would we be taking specific stances against the ways they may have expressed themselves as a culture in the first place? At a minimum, the bowl raises the prospect of faces carved for purposes other than just observation (side note: GRRM refers to Bran eating the weirwood paste as "the green ceremony"), such as for magical rituals, or even as just basic creativity.
 

20 hours ago, JNR said:

Certainly there's no instance of the combination.  The CotF seem to be all about nature, not architecture of this sort at all.

This is why I cited the surrounding environment text in a prior post--"this place belonged to the CotF" as an idea should take the full site into account. It's not a hall or structure in the traditional sense, it's just one cavern of many in a complex system of tunnels and caverns, the cave itself being nestled in the midst of a deep forest where nature reigns.

In short, everything else comports with the warrens of the CotF, with the stone faces being the specific new wrinkle--but is that wrinkle telling us that that cavern was not altered by the CotF, or is it telling us that we have a lot more to learn about the CotF?

Put another way, I don't know that the notion of artistic expression among the CotF (possibly with some regional variations in culture) is any more strange than the circumstances in which a human would have carved a hall of sad faces, buried away in that particular location.

And, of course, there's always the magic factor: spirits into wood, spirits into stone. Besides the petrified roots suggestion, it may be that the faces were necessary for some other magical ritual (as may be the case with the bowl), or to honor the spirits in the stone; I would reiterate the Winterfell crypts comparison, with House Stark's gods and magic being that of the old gods, and that moment with Bran, Rickon, and Hodor after Eddard's death being compelling and suggestive of the crypts as a magical place.

[Matthew.]

8 hours ago, Tucu said:

Looking at the maps from the Lands of Ice and Fire, I see a pattern of 3 big events at 3 choke points: 2 hammers and raising the Wall. The first at the Arm of Dorne with possible origin at the Rainwood, the second at Iron Islands/The Neck and the third one at The Wall (with possible origin at Winterfell)

I've taken similar inspiration from the maps; in particular, the Wall visually reads as a demarcation line between cultivated land, and the Haunted Forest.

Which for me raises the question--if the Hammer of the Waters failed to perfectly divide North and South, was it still enough to bring men to the negotiating table for the Pact, or did there have to be a third incident? Certain things, like the Great Barrow and the Fist of the First Men, give me reason to suspect that men advanced well beyond the Neck before the Pact, and that the war went even worse for the CotF than legend indicates.

[Janneyc1]

2 hours ago, St Daga said:

In my head, I have interpreted a successful Hammer that broke the Arm of Dorne, a less successful Hammer that only flooded the Neck, turned it into a marsh. If each was performed at a holy place, then the successful Hammer was probably at the Gods Eye, the less successful Hammer was north of the Neck. Moat Cailin is possible, but so is Winterfell, or even Long Lake, if water is important. It might also be that the important part is a large weirwood grove, so the Gods Eye still fits, but I am not sure what large weirwood grove we have north of the neck except for the grove that is North of Castle Black. That grove with it's nine weirwoods in a circle does remind me of the nine spikes on the crown of the Kings of Winter, but it's location leads me to think that was tied to the wall, and not something at the Neck.

I agree the location of the wall is a natural place to attempt to divide the continent again, but if so, why such a different method? In two, we see a destruction and separation, a "breaking", while with the wall, we see a building and separation, a "barrier", one that is manned. Could the difference be because the CofF performed the first two "magics" while mankind performed the third?

Well I think it was cast from the cave we see in the Rainwood when they attempted to break the Arm of Dorne. It looks to have been bad for that cave system. I thik the success of the Dornish Hammer was that the landmas around the point of origin would have channeled the water back and into a straighter path. Basically, they could aim the Hammer. The second one that flooded the Neck was possibly done at the Iron Islands, amongst Naga's Bones. Since there wasn't a land mass here to contain the Hammer, it spread out in a circle, rather than a specific area. which resulted in the Iron Islands being broken and the Neck flooding. 

I think that the origin point would have to be close to where the Hammer hits. It would take an enormous amount of energy to cause that big of waves and as you increase the distance, it likely increases the amount of energy required. 

[Black Crow]

Logic is a terrible thing but might not the Long Night be an unintended consequence of the Hammer

[Matthew.]

3 hours ago, St Daga said:

I agree the location of the wall is a natural place to attempt to divide the continent again, but if so, why such a different method? In two, we see a destruction and separation, a "breaking", while with the wall, we see a building and separation, a "barrier", one that is manned. Could the difference be because the CofF performed the first two "magics" while mankind performed the third?

While I have too many theories about the Wall, the Others, and the CotF all competing with each other, one particular notion that nags at me (and this is an attempt to address your question) is Joramun, and his horn.

What, exactly, did Joramun represent among his people? If nothing else, legend doesn't quite portray him as some kind of raider king--if he were a raider, he'd have no particular reason to use his Horn judiciously.

Instead, I have two other potential interpretations of his status:

1.) He was a sort of proto-Mance, someone who found himself and the Free Folk under duress from the Others, and was attempting to use the Horn as leverage to negotiate passage through the Wall

Alternately,
2.) He was some variety of shaman or druid, a human (or perhaps not human?) who, like the crannogmen in some versions of the Hammer of the Waters myth, was an ally of the CotF. At the least, the magic used to create a Horn that "wakes giants from the earth" seems to most intuitively connect to the magic of the old gods.

To return to the question you raise, it may be the case that the Wall wasn't meant to protect the Haunted Forest by functioning as a physical barrier--rather, men would cross the Wall and violate the Pact at their own peril, and the Horn of Winter (with "winter" being an explicit threat) would function as a trump card; so long as the Pact was respected, men would have the assurance of the Wall, that anything magically nasty would be contained in the Haunted Forest. 

I'm already well into the realms of extreme speculation, but I would further suggest that Joramun was defeated - perhaps even betrayed - by Brandon the Breaker (Pact Breaker?), at which point the Horn fell into Stark possession; IMO, it is not Sam's broken horn, or buried in the north, but held in one of the tombs in the Winterfell crypts.

[Tucu]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I've taken similar inspiration from the maps; in particular, the Wall visually reads as a demarcation line between cultivated land, and the Haunted Forest.

Which for me raises the question--if the Hammer of the Waters failed to perfectly divide North and South, was it still enough to bring men to the negotiating table for the Pact, or did there have to be a third incident? Certain things, like the Great Barrow and the Fist of the First Men, give me reason to suspect that men advanced well beyond the Neck before the Pact, and that the war went even worse for the CotF than legend indicates.

I tend to believe that the peace from the Pact didn't last long as it is not in man's nature to keep old pacts. For this I invoke Hoster Blackwood and Bloodraven:

Quote

"Past a certain point, all the dates grow hazy and confused, and the clarity of history becomes the fog of legend.”

<...>

“Someone did, my lord. Many someones. We’ve had a hundred peaces with the Brackens, many sealed with marriages. There’s Blackwood blood in every Bracken, and Bracken blood in every Blackwood. The Old King’s Peace lasted half a century. But then some fresh quarrel broke out, and the old wounds opened and began to bleed again. That’s how it always happens, my father says. So long as men remember the wrongs done to their forebears, no peace will ever last. So we go on century after century, with us hating the Brackens and them hating us. My father says there will never be an end to it.”

Quote

Men forget. Only the trees remember

We are told that the friendship after The Pact lasted 4000 years, but by the time of the Long Night the CoTF could not be found when they were needed. After the Long Night there should have been peace again, but we are told that the Starks fought the Marsh King and the Warg King that had CoTF as allies. Later we are told that the Andals never conquered the North, but the CoTF are gone anyways.

Going into crackpot territory, I support the idea that the long term solution found by the Old Gods included a barrier marking the end of the world of men and a constant reminder of a terrible ancient enemy (real or not).

 

[Brad Stark]

3 hours ago, Matthew. said:

I've taken similar inspiration from the maps; in particular, the Wall visually reads as a demarcation line between cultivated land, and the Haunted Forest.

Which for me raises the question--if the Hammer of the Waters failed to perfectly divide North and South, was it still enough to bring men to the negotiating table for the Pact, or did there have to be a third incident? Certain things, like the Great Barrow and the Fist of the First Men, give me reason to suspect that men advanced well beyond the Neck before the Pact, and that the war went even worse for the CotF than legend indicates.

We see no evidence of a North - South split between men and Cotf.  The pact gave Cotf deep woods and men everything else, and we likely had Cotf in the Stormlands and Godseye longer than anywhere else south of the Wall.  It was only the coming of the Andals that wiped out most of the First Men in the South and forced First Men culture to the North. The Wall acted as a barrier to men and civilization, even if that wasn't it's intent. 

[Brad Stark]

2 hours ago, Matthew. said:

While I have too many theories about the Wall, the Others, and the CotF all competing with each other, one particular notion that nags at me (and this is an attempt to address your question) is Joramun, and his horn.

What, exactly, did Joramun represent among his people? If nothing else, legend doesn't quite portray him as some kind of raider king--if he were a raider, he'd have no particular reason to use his Horn judiciously.

Instead, I have two other potential interpretations of his status:

1.) He was a sort of proto-Mance, someone who found himself and the Free Folk under duress from the Others, and was attempting to use the Horn as leverage to negotiate passage through the Wall

Alternately,
2.) He was some variety of shaman or druid, a human (or perhaps not human?) who, like the crannogmen in some versions of the Hammer of the Waters myth, was an ally of the CotF. At the least, the magic used to create a Horn that "wakes giants from the earth" seems to most intuitively connect to the magic of the old gods.

To return to the question you raise, it may be the case that the Wall wasn't meant to protect the Haunted Forest by functioning as a physical barrier--rather, men would cross the Wall and violate the Pact at their own peril, and the Horn of Winter (with "winter" being an explicit threat) would function as a trump card; so long as the Pact was respected, men would have the assurance of the Wall, that anything magically nasty would be contained in the Haunted Forest. 

I'm already well into the realms of extreme speculation, but I would further suggest that Joramun was defeated - perhaps even betrayed - by Brandon the Breaker (Pact Breaker?), at which point the Horn fell into Stark possession; IMO, it is not Sam's broken horn, or buried in the north, but held in one of the tombs in the Winterfell crypts.

Joramun as a proto Mance does not make sense to me.  Mance only had leverage with the horn as it was believed to bring down the Wall.  If Joramun had a horn that did that, but never used it, he'd have no leverage and no one would remember his horn.  And if he used it, the Wall would be gone. 

We know from the Night King tale that the Starks and Joramun were enemies who made peace to fight the Night King.

I believe Joramun was more of a proto Bloodraven, with a magical horn among many powers he used, either leading raiders South or defending against raiders coming from the South.  This fits with the Wall originally being to protect against the encroachment of civilized man.  The horn could be tied to building the Wall and Joramun world have no motive to either tear it down or threaten to.  

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I tend to believe that the peace from the Pact didn't last long as it is not in man's nature to keep old pacts. For this I invoke Hoster Blackwood and Bloodraven:

We are told that the friendship after The Pact lasted 4000 years, but by the time of the Long Night the CoTF could not be found when they were needed. After the Long Night there should have been peace again, but we are told that the Starks fought the Marsh King and the Warg King that had CoTF as allies. Later we are told that the Andals never conquered the North, but the CoTF are gone anyways.

Going into crackpot territory, I support the idea that the long term solution found by the Old Gods included a barrier marking the end of the world of men and a constant reminder of a terrible ancient enemy (real or not).

 

The idea of peace between all men is naive. Even if we didn't have an all out war between races, and there was an understanding you can't do things such as cut down wierwoods, you could have men fighting with each other, and possibly Cotf too. 

The disappearance of the Cotf forest before the Andals arrived is harder to explain.

I've suggested before that the Cotf didn't disappear until after the Andals arrived and the measters revised history to suppress magic. 

It is also possible the Cotf were nearly gone before the pact.  We have the story of the last hero, who certainly had a hard time finding them. 

 

[redriver]

2 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Logic is a terrible thing but might not the Long Night be an unintended consequence of the Hammer

It may well be and it may have had other unintended consequences too, such as the Others and dragons(eventually).But only if you view the hammer as a meteor and/or meteorites derived from a comet or other celestial body which was summoned by grand scale magic or sorcery.

"Hammer" implies a percussive action from above and iirc both Theon and Catelyn refer to the hammer as being brought or called down by the CotF in legend.This could easily explain the geographical effects existing in the Neck and Arm.

I think Arianne's columns are natural limestone formations that are found in limestone caves.The faces aren't on the columns,they are on the wall and really,it has to be the CotF who did them does it not?Who are the other candidates?Andals were unlikely to be carving faces in caves and if they did they were likely to have been representations of the 7.The First Men didn't really like carved faces,going as far as trying to destroy every one they could find.They did use runes though but no runes here it seems.

And the CotF were avid face carving enthusiasts who were known to hang around in forests and deep places,such as caves.Anyway I don't see what the fuss is about.This just reinforces the idea that the CotF were all over Westeros prior to the First Men.