Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

[SirArthur]

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Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow.

vampire king ... joking aside, will a glamor cast a shadow ? And actually thinking about it, this can well be a Bolton reference, the blood soaked sword before the long night is coming

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . 

a good friend better tell the heavy stone beast how to "fly" ... yes, I think this is Bran.

[JNR]

11 hours ago, JNR said:

Then there's the smoking tower to account for.  One can, with an awkward reach, say "Well, Dany's dragons were loose in Meereen, and there were defensive towers on the walls," but it remains an awkward reach.

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To be sure. Lord Leyton's locked atop his tower with the Mad Maid, consulting books of spells.

The Hightower is, of course, a smoking tower.  And a stone beast breathing shadow fire (whether you perceive it as literal or symbolic) would appear to be a manifestation of magic.  Curious...

[St Daga]

16 hours ago, JNR said:

Summer often uses alternate terms for nouns -- "man claws" and "hardskin" for swords and armor -- to reflect his limited comprehension of the world. 

I think "great winged snake" is the similar approximation of comet. 

Also, the reason the "snake" could be "gone" is given to us in the text: smoke, much of it coming from "fires" that are "eating up the stars."  In other words, smoke came between Summer and the comet, removing it from his field of view.

I do agree that Summer's descriptions of human items might make what he see's harder to interpret for us, but by the time Bran is seeing this through Summer's eyes, isn't the comet long gone from the sky? We only hear of it at the end of Game and early in Clash, and this scene with Bran and Summer is the final chapter in Clash. If the comet is still in the sky, no one is mentioning it anymore. Unless this is a vision of the comet when it is set to return?

15 hours ago, JNR said:

We can also examine the HOTU vision as coming from Dany's perspective:

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

If Dany thinks it's a "great stone beast," there's probably a good reason for that.  It's certainly not a comet; she would know a comet when she sees it (as she has before) and use that term.

And we should bear in mind that this is after she has mothered her three dragons, so she certainly knows a dragon when she sees one of those, too.  This great stone beast resembles a dragon in broad description, but Dany doesn't perceive it as a dragon, at least not overtly.  Similarly, "shadow fire" is probably not what she would describe as coming from dragons like hers.

I agree it's interesting that Dany doesn't call what she see's a dragon, but defines it as a beast. Beast has so many possibilities in this story. I think the first time the word beast is mentioned it is in correlation to Bran's direwolf pup, and the second is to Dany thinking that "dragons did not mate with the beasts of the field". So, at least in this thought, she is clearly separating dragons and beasts in her mind. Of course, she also thinks of the Dothraki as beasts with human skin, so her interpretation of "beast" might be so broad it could indicate any creature, even a human.

The next several hints in the text are to direwolves as beasts. So, is this a hint that what Dany seen in her vision is a direwolf? A stone direwolf? But does it fly and breath shadow fire? Of course, we do have the idea of the winged wolf in out story a couple times, but so far not with  fire.

Lions are also referred to as beasts, and Tyrion himself is referred to as a beast on several occasions, and he does have the greyscale/stone hints about him. I believe that Tyrion could "breath shadow fire" with his sharp tongue, but to take wing? Shadowcat's are also referred to as beasts and Tyrion has a strong link to shadowcat's through his cloak, and the Lannister cat symbolism. 

 

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Beyond the horse gate, plundered gods and stolen heroes loomed to either side of them. The forgotten deities of dead cities brandished their broken thunderbolts at the sky as Dany rode her silver past their feet. Stone kings looked down on her from their thrones, their faces chipped and stained, even their names lost in the mists of time. Lithe young maidens danced on marble plinths, draped only in flowers, or poured air from shattered jars. Monsters stood in the grass beside the road; black iron dragons with jewels for eyes, roaring griffins, manticores with their barbed tails poised to strike, and other beasts she could not name. Some of the statues were so lovely they took her breath away, others so misshapen and terrible that Dany could scarcely bear to look at them. Those, Ser Jorah said, had likely come from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai. AGOT-Daenerys IV

Dany also might not know how to define what "beast" she see's. She would know what a dragon looks like, a lion, cat's in general, and a direwolf most likely, so perhaps the "stone beast" that she see's is something that she has no name for?

My initial interpretation of what Summer see's is an actual dragon coming out of Winterfell, and that Dany has a vision of it. She has several visions that hint at either Winterfell or the Starks, but I admit this is probably too obvious of an interpretation and is therefore probably incorrect. Even though it's my favored interpretation, what ever Summer/Bran and Dany see might not have anything to do with the other! So, what other beast does she see that she has no name to describe?

The stone beast and shadow fire also makes me think of the Titan of Baavos, but I don't see much to links that to a tower or wings. Except the Titan is actually a tower, although it's man shaped.

 

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From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire

I have also wondered if this could in some way link back to what ever happened at the showdown at the toj (whatever it is) was? Dany having a vision of the past in this case, and not the future?

[LynnS]

Also, a beast is by definition: an inhumanly cruel, violent, or depraved person.  So while I'm inclined to think the magic involved includes Melisandre and Stannis;  I wouldn't rule out Euron or Victarion.  Whatever their designs involving Dany; it makes sense that a vision would involve them, if it affects her. 

[Brad Stark]

The field of Taxonomy is the study of how to classify something.  This is often boring and irrelevant even outside of fiction. 

We know there was a vision of a flying beast breathing fire that is very different from Dany's dragons.  It is purely a debate about taxonomy whether it is appropriate to call this beast a dragon.  You, I and GRRM could all classify exactly what a dragon is differently and it doesn't change the story at all. 

Some more relevant questions:

Is the vision literal or metaphorical? 

Is the beast the same one summer saw? 

Is the beast the same thing Mel is trying to wake? 

Is this vision the past, future or something that could have been but isn't? 

How is the vision relevant to Dany?  Does she wake the beast?  Will she ride it?  Does it mean she is Azor Ashai? 

[JNR]

52 minutes ago, St Daga said:

by the time Bran is seeing this through Summer's eyes, isn't the comet long gone from the sky? We only hear of it at the end of Game and early in Clash, and this scene with Bran and Summer is the final chapter in Clash.

I'm not sure we can judge the comet's presence or absence by overt references, simply because people don't always mention everything. 

For instance, we know from Aemon's report of Rhaegar's observation that there was a comet in the sky some months before the Rebellion began, when Aegon was evidently conceived. 

You'd think that would come up from time to time -- these two extraordinary things happening in fairly close proximity. 

Yet no one else in canon (that I recall at least) ever mentions it.  Prior iterations of the comet's cycle don't seem to come up much in general.

To me the strongest argument against it being the comet is this, from Bran's first ACOK chapter:

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"Oooo," Bran cried tentatively. He cupped his hands around his mouth and lifted his head to the comet. "Ooooooooooooooooooo, ahooooooooooooooo," he howled. It sounded stupid, high and hollow and quavering, a little boy's howl, not a wolf's. Yet Summer gave answer, his deep voice drowning out Bran's thin one, and Shaggydog made it a chorus. Bran haroooed again. They howled together, last of their pack.

Sure seems like Summer must be familiar with the comet.  So it's peculiar he would "bare his teeth" at it late in the same book. 

But I would find it even more peculiar if all of a sudden, there were an object in the sky that Summer would perceive as elongated and fiery... that is not the comet.

[JNR]

57 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Dany having a vision of the past in this case, and not the future?

Could certainly be the case.  And not a slant people have given much thought.

[Tucu]

10 minutes ago, JNR said:

But I would find it even more peculiar if all of a sudden, there were an object in the sky that Summer would perceive as elongated and fiery... that is not the comet.

There are two possible combinations of normal events than can explain the vision:

-a short duration mix of smoke rising and the red comet in the background

-a short duration flare and smoke rising like in this picture:

gas flare

[Matthew.]

I still think the assumption that "beast" is Dany's definition is a potentially erroneous treatment of the text, that it is excessively leaning toward discussing the text as though it is first person, with the POV as the narrator, which is not the case.

IMO, emphasis shouldn't just be placed on the vision in isolation, but on the idea that the "stone beast" might also embody a lie that is to be slain by Dany. Moqorro has a vision that seems more straightforwardly relevant to Targaryens, Blackfyres, the mummer's dragon, and a potential Dance 2.0 between Dany and Aegon, but it might also include the "stone beast," particularly if it results from Melisandre's attempt to wake dragons from stone and thrust some sort of fraud upon Westeros, a fraud not unlike her false Lightbringer:

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"Someone told me that the night is dark and full of terrors. What do you see in those flames?"

"Dragons," Moqorro said in the Common Tongue of Westeros. He spoke it very well, with hardly a trace of accent. No doubt that was one reason the high priest Benerro had chosen him to bring the faith of R'hllor to Daenerys Targaryen. "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all."

 

[SirArthur]

25 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

IMO, emphasis shouldn't just be placed on the vision in isolation, but on the idea that the "stone beast" might also embody a lie that is to be slain by Dany. Moqorro has a vision that seems more straightforwardly relevant to Targaryens, Blackfyres, the mummer's dragon, and a potential Dance 2.0 between Dany and Aegon, but it might also include the "stone beast," particularly if it results from Melisandre's attempt to wake dragons from stone and thrust some sort of fraud upon Westeros, a fraud not unlike her false Lightbringer:

To be fair, and to go back to the Dark Lord comments from last heresy, any Dark Lord would predate the creation of dragons and could even know how to create them or destroy them. In this case dragons will be useless. They are the false hope. 

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

Also, a beast is by definition: an inhumanly cruel, violent, or depraved person.  So while I'm inclined to think the magic involved includes Melisandre and Stannis;  I wouldn't rule out Euron or Victarion.  Whatever their designs involving Dany; it makes sense that a vision would involve them, if it affects her. 

Yes, and another "beast" in our text is Gregor Clegane, or what ever he has become! 

[JNR]

47 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I still think the assumption that "beast" is Dany's definition is a potentially erroneous treatment of the text, that it is excessively leaning toward discussing the text as though it is first person, with the POV as the narrator, which is not the case.

Seems like it is, though:

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Viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. The man had her brother's hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac.

That's Dany's POV as narrator, smack in the middle of the HOTU visions.

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A kingly man in rich robes rose when he saw her, and smiled. "Daenerys of House Targaryen, be welcome. Come and share the food of forever. We are the Undying of Qarth."

Dany is even directly addressed here. 

If Dany isn't the one who perceives the man as "kingly," whose robes are "rich," who does? Whose perspective is it?

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

The field of Taxonomy is the study of how to classify something.  This is often boring and irrelevant even outside of fiction. 

We know there was a vision of a flying beast breathing fire that is very different from Dany's dragons.  It is purely a debate about taxonomy whether it is appropriate to call this beast a dragon.  You, I and GRRM could all classify exactly what a dragon is differently and it doesn't change the story at all. 

It might be boring, but it could be important. I suppose if Dany had called what she saw a dragon, that would be to easy, but in looking back into the text, she doesn't refer to her dragon's as beasts. It comes up in her POV, but only one time does it seem like it could be her referring to a dragon as a beast, and that is a newly hatched Drogon. 

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The cream-and-gold dragon was suckling at her left breast, the green-and-bronze at the right. Her arms cradled them close. The black-and-scarlet beast was draped across her shoulders, its long sinuous neck coiled under her chin. When it saw Jorah, it raised its head and looked at him with eyes as red as coals. AGOT-Daenerys X

Honestly, this last bit of this Dany chapter almost feels like an omnicent narrator, much like the end of Victarion's chapter, when Moqorro cures Victartion's arm. It's not really a 1st person POV, but it's within a chapter that we think of as 1st person. 

Anyway, I just think it's interesting that Dany never refers to her dragons as beasts (except this one odd time) so why assume that a dragon was part of her vision? And in thinking about it this way, if Dany and Summer saw the same thing, then I expect what Summer saw was not a dragon either. Then what was it? Was it even a living creature at all?

Dany actually refers to Drogo's pyre as a "beast", which is interesting. "The pyre roared in the deepening dusk like some great beast", so perhaps the beast she saw in her vision is a large stone fire. And that could be Winterfell. I still can't shake the idea that Dany seems to have a connection to the Stark's in her visions. The hall of kings, the feast of the dead, and whatever beast is breathing shadow fire could be the same thing that Summer saw.

2 hours ago, Brad Stark said:

Some more relevant questions:

Is the vision literal or metaphorical? 

Is the beast the same one summer saw? 

Is the beast the same thing Mel is trying to wake? 

Is this vision the past, future or something that could have been but isn't? 

How is the vision relevant to Dany?  Does she wake the beast?  Will she ride it?  Does it mean she is Azor Ashai? 

All good questions, and we might have multiple possible answers. Visions and prophecy is tricky! If we are going to ask if the vision itself is literal or metaphorical, then I think it's fair to as if the beast is literal or metaphorical, as well. If it's literal, then what it is might help us understand what is happening.

[St Daga]

2 hours ago, JNR said:

I'm not sure we can judge the comet's presence or absence by overt references, simply because people don't always mention everything. 

For instance, we know from Aemon's report of Rhaegar's observation that there was a comet in the sky some months before the Rebellion began, when Aegon was evidently conceived. 

You'd think that would come up from time to time -- these two extraordinary things happening in fairly close proximity. 

Yet no one else in canon (that I recall at least) ever mentions it.  Prior iterations of the comet's cycle don't seem to come up much in general.

It's possible that the comet is still noticeable in the sky, but it has been there for so long, that people have stopped mentioning it or even thinking of it. That is something that I had not considered.

2 hours ago, JNR said:

Sure seems like Summer must be familiar with the comet.  So it's peculiar he would "bare his teeth" at it late in the same book. 

But I would find it even more peculiar if all of a sudden, there were an object in the sky that Summer would perceive as elongated and fiery... that is not the comet.

Perhaps a different comet, but that seems a little unlikely, so let us imagine it's the same comet, the red comet. Summer does seem defensive when he see's the comet, but perhaps that is Bran's influence on Summer while within the warg bond. Perhaps we are seeing through Summer's eyes but with Bran's emotion, and something in that sight of a "great winged snake" that makes Bran upset? Bran might very well associate the comet with the announcement of Ned's death, which would be upsetting and could perhaps cause him to influence Summer's feelings about the comet.

However, if Summer/Bran is seeing the comet, then I don't think that Dany's vision is the same thing as what Summer is seeing, which really put's me back to ground zero of ideas on this. Dany has seen the comet with her own eyes, would she refer to it as a "beast"? Probably not.

When looking back into the text, Bran, see's Hali's intestines torn out, and thinks of them as "blue snakes", (this always seems like it should be a description from Summer instead of Bran), so perhaps the "great winged snake" is something as simple as a pile of intestines? Early in Game, Bran refers to Winterfell both as "a stone labyrinth" and a "monstrous stone tree". I am not sure how that hint's at it's "roar was a river of flame", but looking back at Drago's pyre, Dany thinks of it as a "beast" that roars!

Perhaps none of it is connected and I am lost down the wrong path! 

[Matthew.]

44 minutes ago, JNR said:

That's Dany's POV as narrator, smack in the middle of the HOTU visions.

...

Dany is even directly addressed here. 

If Dany isn't the one who perceives the man as "kingly," whose robes are "rich," who does? Whose perspective is it?

GRRM is the third person limited/subjective narrator, and Dany is the viewpoint character to whom his narration is limited--the text you cite is the third person narrator narrating Dany's thoughts. "The man had her brother's hair," not "the man has my brother's hair."

I would also reiterate the AGOT Prologue example:

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The Others made no sound.

Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?

Note the knowledge discrepancy between the narrator's knowledge and Will's subjective rationalizations of what is unfolding--or more glaring, the Victarion chapter where the 'narrator' is continuing to describe things independent of Victarion's presence:
 

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The iron captain was not seen again that day, but as the hours passed the crew of his Iron Victory reported hearing the sound of wild laughter coming from the captain's cabin, laughter deep and dark and mad, and when Longwater Pyke and Wulfe One-Eye tried the cabin door they found it barred. Later singing was heard, a strange high wailing song in a tongue the maester said was High Valyrian. That was when the monkeys left the ship, screeching as they leapt into the water.

The above is the most explicit example, but there's plenty of narration throughout the text that is written in the author's voice, rather than strictly describing what characters are looking at, how they're engaging with what they're looking at, and so forth. Moments where GRRM allows his own prose to flourish. Again, his writing during Dany's pyre, the Sorrows, Bran III ADWD, and various other moments in which the sense of time and place seem to collapse are the moments in which GRRM is most distinctly 'breaking' from the voice of his characters.

To be clear, I acknowledge the pedantic nature of this criticism, and the fact that the way the author channels a subjective voice (eg, wolf dreams) often means that the line between character definition and narrator definition is not always clear, but I consider it pertinent in this instance because I feel that making "what does Dany know/understand" a standard for interpreting the visions and their descriptions to be an error.

For example, given her willingness to make internal leaps during the Rhaegar/Elia scene, I don't know that it is stylistically consistent for Dany to later observe a figure that is defined both knowledgeably and ambiguously as a "dying prince."

[Black Crow]

Perhaps one way to reconcile the contradictions circling around the great stone beast is to recognise it as something symbolic rather than literal. Summer sees something we recognise as a dragon, where no dragon should be. Danaerys, if we accept for the sake of this argument, sees the same thing as a "beast". The term "beast" as discussed above, is used to denote something cruel and terrible. While normal people would obviously regard Danaerys' pets as cruel and terrible beasts, she doesn't refer to them as such and may not recognise them as such either. When she sees the great stone beast it isn't a dragon. Conversely, Summer has seen the comet, but instead now sees an incorporeal dragon or dragon-like beast and bares his teeth.

If, however, we go back to Old Nan, there is a possible explanation. When asked what the comet means, she responds Dragons - and lo and behold half a world away Danaerys the Dragonlord, hatches three of them. Sorted. Then we learn that Dragons and magic may be synonymous

Then look at the context; the destruction of Winterfell.

Are Danaerys and Summer each in their own way seeing not a corporeal dragon/beast flapping about over Winterfell, but something nasty being released/freed by the destruction of Winterfell? 

[JNR]

4 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Summer does seem defensive when he see's the comet, but perhaps that is Bran's influence on Summer while within the warg bond.

Yes, this is another interesting dimension to consider, influencing the text.

You can see why GRRM would really struggle writing a lot of ASOIAF content.  His narrative structures are just insanely more complex than the norm.

"Let's see... I need to describe an enigmatic thing in the sky, possibly a manifestation of ambiguous prophecy.  And this has to happen from Summer's perspective, even though Summer is a direwolf who can't speak English and doesn't actually know words.  And the whole thing may or may not be influenced by Bran's warg-driven emotional state as combined with Summer's own." 

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

I don't think that Dany's vision is the same thing as what Summer is seeing

I agree, but they may still be related somehow.  At minimum, Summer's bits demonstrate how many layers of uncertainty we're dealing with, just like the HOTU visions.

7 minutes ago, St Daga said:

perhaps the "great winged snake" is something as simple as a pile of intestines

How did they get into the sky, and once there, wouldn't Summer hear them splat when they hit the ground?

It's also interesting to me Summer says the thing in the sky is winged.  Would Summer think that about a comet -- that it has what he perceives as wings?  Something that juts out from both sides?  I wouldn't think so -- comets are basically linear -- but maybe, I guess.

 

[Lady Rhodes]

@Brad Stark One of the things that I have noticed regarding the text of her visions in the house of the Undying is that the visions are not all past or present or even future - for instance, the texts implies that the child of Drogo and Dany is sacking a city, but we know that will not come to pass.  My suspicion is that there is a pattern to these visions, but I have yet to crack it.  Viserys dying - past, Rhaego sacking a city - an event that would have happened, etc. I am up for speculation.

[JNR]

5 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

I don't know that it is stylistically consistent for Dany to later observe a figure that is defined both knowledgeably and ambiguously as a "dying prince."

Oh, I think it is.  I think she perceives that figure as just that, and hence the text is written as it is.  (Whether she's right that it's a dying prince is another matter.)

You cite the blue rose/blue flower discrepancy.  But it doesn't surprise me Dany would use both terms because a rose is obviously a type of flower in Dany's mind (as all our minds).

But is a dragon... in Dany's mind... a type of great stone beast that breathes shadow flame?  I think not.

We see the same principle in the Summer bits:

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He sniffed at the drifting smoke. Men, many men, many horses, and fire, fire, fire. No smell was more dangerous, not even the hard cold smell of iron, the stuff of man-claws and hardskin.

Since the text says "he," and not "I," I suppose you would classify that as

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GRRM is the third person limited/subjective narrator

Right?

But to me, it is quite plainly Summer's own thinking.  It may be rendered in third person, but it is clearly Summer's perspective, not GRRM's, and we know this because GRRM knows the words swords and armor and would use those words.

[Brad Stark]

18 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Perhaps one way to reconcile the contradictions circling around the great stone beast is to recognise it as something symbolic rather than literal. Summer sees something we recognise as a dragon, where no dragon should be. Danaerys, if we accept for the sake of this argument, sees the same thing as a "beast". The term "beast" as discussed above, is used to denote something cruel and terrible. While normal people would obviously regard Danaerys' pets as cruel and terrible beasts, she doesn't refer to them as such and may not recognise them as such either. When she sees the great stone beast it isn't a dragon. Conversely, Summer has seen the comet, but instead now sees an incorporeal dragon or dragon-like beast and bares his teeth.

If, however, we go back to Old Nan, there is a possible explanation. When asked what the comet means, she responds Dragons - and lo and behold half a world away Danaerys the Dragonlord, hatches three of them. Sorted. Then we learn that Dragons and magic may be synonymous

Then look at the context; the destruction of Winterfell.

Are Danaerys and Summer each in their own way seeing not a corporeal dragon/beast flapping about over Winterfell, but something nasty being released/freed by the destruction of Winterfell? 

I am still not sold on the idea Dany and Summer saw the same thing. 

Dany has an emotional connection to her dragons and probably would not refer to them as beasts, especially at this point in time (vs later, when she chains them for eating children), and likely would recognize them even if they were older in a vision of the future. 

However it seems doubtful to me that she would have the same emotional connection to a different dragon.  There is no reason she wouldn't see Balerion as a beast, and certainly would see him differently than her own 'children'.