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Heresy 217 Dreams and Dust

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48 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Surely Oreo and Argella had children with some of the Durrandon genes passed into the child? If Argella had the "magic" blood, then she passed it on like all the other magic maidens.

I just checked the wiki. Jocelyn Baratheon (daughter of Rogar and Alyssa Velaryon) married into the Targs and Rhaenys (the Queen that never was) was born. From that line there are marriages into the Targs again, the Velaryons again and the Hightowers. Any Velaryon and Hightower can have Durrandon blood; and through them probably others too (including Targs).

Edited by Tucu

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I have trouble sleeping and I was wondering if anyone here interested in numerology of asoiaf and ever searcher for the significance of number ten in the series? I will appreciate the help to find out the answer myself. :)

I just remembered Amethyst Empress will be the tenth identified Gemstone figure and I hate myself for not remembering this sooner. 

Edited by Jova Snow

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47 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I just checked the wiki. Jocelyn Baratheon (daughter of Rogar and Alyssa Velaryon) married into the Targs and Rhaenys (the Queen that never was) was born. From that line there are marriages into the Targs again, the Velaryons again and the Hightowers. Any Targ, Velaryon and Hightower can have Durrandon blood (others probably too).

Regardless of what I posted about genetics, I'm probably one of very few that doesn't put a lot of stock into magic bloodlines. I just don't consider them to be as important as the level of sacrifice.

People point to the Starks as being wargs/skinchangers as proof that their blood is magical, but the wildlings have many skinchangers. The Targaryens too, are just one family of dragonlords. The Starks and wildings could be distantly related by First Men blood, but then all First Men should have magic blood. And all dragonlords have Valyrian blood, so all Valyrians's should have magical blood then.

What I do believe is that certain families learned and began to practice magic and sacrificed their own children or aged men to feed the gods blood. And it may be that the sacrifice must come from king's blood, because we learned from the kindly man that what is offered must be a true sacrifice for the individual. Thus a poor old woman giving her last coin sacrificed more than the rich man that gave a bag of gold coins. If you sacrifice an aging king or his "seed", it's powerful, because of the level of the sacrifice. Drogo's position as khal made him a king, so it may be that the death of his child is what facilitated the magic. As soon as Dany became pregnant, the eggs were "seeded", and she was transformed. 

Reviewing this information does cause me to take a second look at the maidens, however - because Aegon V's failure may have had three main issues: First is the likely fact that magic wasn't escaping the threadbare wards yet, second Prince Duncan wasn't a king yet, and third, Jenny of Oldstones may not have been as highborn as she claimed. The sacrifice wasn't high enough, and there wasn't enough magic to spark. 

Edited by Feather Crystal

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I just checked the wiki. Jocelyn Baratheon (daughter of Rogar and Alyssa Velaryon) married into the Targs and Rhaenys (the Queen that never was) was born. From that line there are marriages into the Targs again, the Velaryons again and the Hightowers. Any Velaryon and Hightower can have Durrandon blood; and through them probably others too (including Targs).

Rhaenys' line didn't survive among Targaryens as far as we know since Rhaenyra's sons were fathered by Strong instead. I have no knowledge about Laena's line from F&B I know she married Daemon T and had twins (daughters) 

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14 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

Rhaenys' line didn't survive among Targaryens as far as we know since Rhaenyra's sons were fathered by Strong instead. I have no knowledge about Laena's line from F&B I know she married Daemon T and had twins (daughters) 

There is a chance that Rhaenyra's sons might have inherited the dark hair from the Baratheon genes and not the Strongs...in any case that line is dead (unless it lives in the Starks through Sara Snow)

The lines I mention are for the twins of Daemon. One continued the Velaryion line with Alyn Velaryon and the other had 6 daugthers with a Hightower. The trace goes cold from there, but it looks quite spread.

Edited by Tucu

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40 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

Regardless of what I posted about genetics, I'm probably one of very few that doesn't put a lot of stock into magic bloodlines. I just don't consider them to be as important as the level of sacrifice.

People point to the Starks as being wargs/skinchangers as proof that their blood is magical, but the wildlings have many skinchangers. The Targaryens too, are just one family of dragonlords. The Starks and wildings could be distantly related by First Men blood, but then all First Men should have magic blood. And all dragonlords have Valyrian blood, so all Valyrians's should have magical blood then.

What I do believe is that certain families learned and began to practice magic and sacrificed their own children or aged men to feed the gods blood. And it may be that the sacrifice must come from king's blood, because we learned from the kindly man that what is offered must be a true sacrifice for the individual. Thus a poor old woman giving her last coin sacrificed more than the rich man that gave a bag of gold coins. If you sacrifice an aging king or his "seed", it's powerful, because of the level of the sacrifice. Drogo's position as khal made him a king, so it may be that the death of his child is what facilitated the magic. As soon as Dany became pregnant, the eggs were "seeded", and she was transformed. 

Reviewing this information does cause me to take a second look at the maidens, however - because Aegon V's failure may have had three main issues: First is the likely fact that magic wasn't escaping the threadbare wards yet, second Prince Duncan wasn't a king yet, and third, Jenny of Oldstones may not have been as highborn as she claimed. The sacrifice wasn't high enough, and there wasn't enough magic to spark. 

I think GRRM is including a weak version of genetics. People can have the magic genes and pass them, but the magical traits need more to be activated; like in real life where a phenotypic trait becomes active by a combination of genotype and environmental conditions (plus the activation and deactivation processes of epigenetics). Sacrifices could be a tool for the genes to express into a trait.

 

Edited by Tucu

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

There is a chance that Rhaenyra's sons might have inherited the dark hair from the Baratheon genes and not the Strongs...in any case that line is dead (unless it lives in the Starks through Sara Snow)

The lines I mention are for the twins of Daemon. One continued the Velaryion line with Alyn Velaryon and the other had 6 daugthers with a Hightower. The trace goes cold from there, but it looks quite spread.

I am sceptical of both Sara Snow and Six Hightower daughters. There is already Sara Stark daughter of Cregan so there is a possibility Sara Snow of Mushroom were based on daughter of Cregan with his second wife but a legitimate union between Stark and Targaryen won't be kept a secret imo. 

There is also no way Hightowers has a Targaryen princess after Dance with Dragons. 

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:

Time for some tinfoil...from the weirwood perspective, we might look at the ancient FM and the current wildlings as dangerous hard to control cattle (or bacteria and mold in a blue cheese); as long as their number is kept in balance they are useful. What would happen if a terrible winter is coming that would kill them all? A sensible rancher would put some of them in a safe place.

Were the weirwoods/CoTF responsible for the Long Night and the incoming Winter? Maybe at some level by sharing responsibility in the abuse of magic.

I think that the CotF might be keeping the wildlings as stock and could be herding them south. However, I don't think that they caused the Long Night. 

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31 minutes ago, Jova Snow said:

I am sceptical of both Sara Snow and Six Hightower daughters. There is already Sara Stark daughter of Cregan so there is a possibility Sara Snow of Mushroom were based on daughter of Cregan with his second wife but a legitimate union between Stark and Targaryen won't be kept a secret imo. 

There is also no way Hightowers has a Targaryen princess after Dance with Dragons. 

With 6 daughters married into 6 houses, the bloodline could be anywhere, including back into the Targs. Then we have the Velaryon angle and maybe the Snow angle. Not very useful to trace who can have storm god genes, though.

Edited by Tucu

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1 hour ago, Tucu said:

I think GRRM is including a weak version of genetics. People can have the magic genes and pass them, but the magical traits need more to be activated; like in real life where a phenotypic trait becomes active by a combination of genotype and environmental conditions (plus the activation and deactivation processes of epigenetics). Sacrifices could be a tool for the genes to express into a trait.

 

I sort of like the comparison to epigenetics, but instead of an inheritable gene, magic is somehow inserted either deliberately or by accident into an embryo or small child - an environmental influence - which in turn activates cells just so - akin to lighting a lantern. There are too many families that can birth a skinchanger or a dragonlord to say with certainty that specific families have magic bloodlines. I think every person can be infused with magic either accidentally or on purpose through a "stressor" such as a near death experience or even the loss of an eye, activating something that was always there - just not turned on.

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4 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I sort of like the comparison to epigenetics, but instead of an inheritable gene, magic is somehow inserted either deliberately or by accident into an embryo or small child - an environmental influence - which in turn activates cells just so - akin to lighting a lantern. There are too many families that can birth a skinchanger or a dragonlord to say with certainty that specific families have magic bloodlines. I think every person can be infused with magic either accidentally or on purpose through a "stressor" such as a near death experience or even the loss of an eye, activating something that was always there - just not turned on.

yeah we see this with Bran and possibly Rickon as well. Dany too. There is probably an environmental effect needed to produce the result as well. Magical radiation maybe?

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13 minutes ago, Feather Crystal said:

I sort of like the comparison to epigenetics, but instead of an inheritable gene, magic is somehow inserted either deliberately or by accident into an embryo or small child - an environmental influence - which in turn activates cells just so - akin to lighting a lantern. There are too many families that can birth a skinchanger or a dragonlord to say with certainty that specific families have magic bloodlines. I think every person can be infused with magic either accidentally or on purpose through a "stressor" such as a near death experience or even the loss of an eye, activating something that was always there - just not turned on.

I have wondered if "child of three" and "Remember who you are, what you were made to be" are references to gene editing. In many ways Dany seems to be a designed product like Melantha in Nightflyers.

Also, Bran being married to the trees with the help of the Jojen paste sounds like activating genetic traits.

 

Edited by Tucu

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27 minutes ago, Tucu said:

I have wondered if "child of three" and "Remember who you are, what you were made to be" are references to gene editing. In many ways Dany seems to be a designed product like Melantha in Nightflyers.

Also, Bran being married to the trees with the help of the Jojen paste sounds like activating genetic traits.

 

I think it was Frey Family Reunion who suggested that the Undying are addressing both Dany and Drogon when she is greeted as 'mother of dragons' and Drogon is addressed as 'child of three'.   I've always thought that made sense.

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4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I think it was Frey Family Reunion who suggested that the Undying are addressing both Dany and Drogon when she is greeted as 'mother of dragons' and Drogon is addressed as 'child of three'.   I've always thought that made sense.

There are more incantations that come after "mother of dragons": "child of three", "child of storm", "daughter of death", "slayer of lies" and "bride of fire". They seem to be all references to her.

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7 hours ago, Tucu said:
9 hours ago, St Daga said:

Daenerys has been linked to some impressive magic and she is certainly tied to storm imagery, which would include wind.

If Daenerys Stormborn's birth is related to weather magic. Was the storm an attack on her or her birth cause the storm?

This quote is about the stallion that mounts the world:

Quote

"The thunder of his hooves!" the others chorused.

"As swift as the wind he rides, and behind him his khalasar covers the earth, men without number, with arakhs shining in their hands like blades of razor grass. Fierce as a storm this prince will be. His enemies will tremble before him, and their wives will weep tears of blood and rend their flesh in grief. The bells in his hair will sing his coming, and the milk men in the stone tents will fear his name."

And this is from the House of the Undying:

Quote

mother of dragons . . . child of storm . . . 

Can we trace any Baratheon bloodline for Dany?

It is as cracked pot as I can imagine, but during the parentage read that I am part of at LH, I have isolated multiple things that make me think that Daenerys could be Robert Baratheon's daughter. No one but myself even buys it a little, and I don't blame them, because it seems practically nuts! Even I have a hard time thinking it's truly possible! As crazy as it seems, I can't let it go completely, and I am still gathering hints! One of these days, I will finally write up my theory and wait for people to throw rotten vegetables at it! :blink:

 

5 hours ago, Tucu said:

Too bad, it would have been an easy explanation of "child of storm". Now I need to think about how Robert got into Rhaella's or Ashara's bedchamber.

There is also an interesting possible link between Dany and Robert and bells in the story. The Battle of the Bells happened after Robert apparently was enjoying the ladies at Stoney Sep, enough that one of his possible bastards, Bella, was conceived there. Perhaps Dany's mother was hiding out in Stoney Sept, as well... I said it was cracked pot at it's finest... If this happened, I actually like Rhaella as the mother more, although I truly think that Robert bagged Ashara at Harrenhal. I think Cersei could be a possible mother, depending on when the conception occurred. We know that she was pregnant with a child of Robert's that she said she had her womb cleansed of, and she is not afraid of dressing as a tavern wench. She also has one child, Tommen, who is noted in Game to have white-blond hair. Could white-blond hair be a nod to Dany's silver-gold hair? 

I am going to stop now. Sorry for opening a can of crazy talk! :leaving:

 

 

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10 hours ago, St Daga said:

Daenerys has been linked to some impressive magic and she is certainly tied to storm imagery, which would include wind.

Would you consider lightning in this as well?  Every time I see the name Durrandon, I think of Dondarrion.
Lady Jena Dondarrion married Prince Baelor Targaryen, and was the mother of Valarr and Matarys (of course neither of them seem to have had offspring before their deaths) so I don't imagine that is a good link. 

Then there are the FOUR STORMS. They were the daughters of Elenda Caron and Lord Borros Baratheon.
1-Cassandra - she was found guilty of poisoning Aegon III and Daenaera Velaryon - her punishment was marriage to a minor knight Walter Brownhill (who had already fathered 13 living children with his 3 previous wives.

2- Maris - who taunted Aemond about missing an eye or a ball, and he grew so angered he ended up taking the life of Lucerys Velaryon - when the real bloodshed began with the Dance of the Dragons. It was stated Maris' tongue had been removed and she joined the Silent Sister.

3- Ellyn (not much known about this one)

4- Floris who considered the prettiest of the Four Storms, had firstly been betrothed to Lord Larys Strong of Harrnhal, but he was executed by Lord Cregan Stark.  She was the then wed as 3rd wife of Thaddeus Rowan, Lord of Goldengrove. But, she died two years later in childbed. (it doesn't say if the child survived)

After all that has been stated about them, I don't imagine any of them had much positive thoughts about the Targaryen line.

It's very little information, but there might be a link in there somewhere. I wish we had more family tree information to go on.

Edited by Wolfkin

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On ‎2‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 8:05 PM, Brad Stark said:

I always believed the sleepers were the greenseers who have gone into the wood.  The horn will be bring them back with all their power.

I agree, but I also think of the 79 sentinel. Those deserters at Nightfort who were sealed within the wall. 
'They left their posts in life, so in death their watch goes on forever.'

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7 hours ago, St Daga said:

It is as cracked pot as I can imagine, but during the parentage read that I am part of at LH, I have isolated multiple things that make me think that Daenerys could be Robert Baratheon's daughter. No one but myself even buys it a little, and I don't blame them, because it seems practically nuts! Even I have a hard time thinking it's truly possible! As crazy as it seems, I can't let it go completely, and I am still gathering hints! One of these days, I will finally write up my theory and wait for people to throw rotten vegetables at it! :blink:

As long as your theory doesn't debunk "AlysJon, Queen of Winter", I promise not to grab the pitchfork :-)

Edited by Tucu

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12 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

Would you consider lightning in this as well?  Every time I see the name Durrandon, I think of Dondarrion.
Lady Jena Dondarrion married Prince Baelor Targaryen, and was the mother of Valarr and Matarys (of course neither of them seem to have had offspring before their deaths) so I don't imagine that is a good link. 

Then there are the FOUR STORMS. They were the daughters of Elenda Caron and Lord Borros Baratheon.

Sure, lightening very much fit's the imagery of a storm, as far as I am concerned. The Dondarrion line is from the Stormlands, and they certainly have lightening imagery. Star's and lightening, which could hint at some Dayne connection as well as some Durrandon connection from the past. Dany also  has some star imagery in her story, which  usually link to the Daynes, but your mention of the Dondarrion's makes me think of them as being possible. It's something I need to look into, especially since Beric seems to have some type of power or magic about him.

This idea of the Four Storm's that we hear about in F&B also flared my thoughts on Dany somehow having Baratheon blood. But perhaps it just links her to birth in the Stormlands, (possibly Dondarrion blood) since a bastard from here would also be known as Storm, as well as a nickname we see with several Baratheons.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 12:06 PM, Brad Stark said:

I always thought Joramun was a reference to Jörmungandr, an ouroboros and mortal enemy of Thor.  This lead to all kinds of theories as to Thor-like characters, time loops, monsters breaking free of imprisonment, theories on dragons, etc.  This can go in so many directions, by itself, it doesn't lead us anywhere.

this is very much a reference to Jormungandr.  Jormungander is something of a bound monster similar to his siblings fortold to relinquish his tail after the horn is blown to signal the start of Ragnorak… and in turn fight the storm god in a battle that will kill them both. 

There is evidence to suggest Joramun was a giant such as the freefolk looking in giant's graves for the horn and mentioning people would be fooled because of the size of it.  There are also several giants whose "roar" is often described as sounding like a warhorn wun wun, the titan of Braavos, the Old Man of the River ect.  The Umbers whose sigil is a giant are often given horns to blow as well… it's thematic in a sense. 

So if you think of Joramun as something of a bound monster or a bound giant who will break these bonds you pretty much get the equivalent of the Umber sigil.  An unbound roaring giant with broken chains. 

This concept is echoed at the battle in castle black where a roaring giant breeched the gates, the smith Donal Noye and the giant fought a battle that killed the both of them and there were broken links of chains strewn on the floor.  Donal Noye would be an analog to the stormgod as he is a smith who often wields a hammer.  The Giant would be fulfilling the role of Jormungandr in this case.
 

Quote

"Noye and his men had been waiting within, behind a gate of heavy iron bars like the two Pyp had just unlocked. The two crossbows had gotten off a dozen quarrels as the giant struggled toward them. Then the spearmen must have come to the fore, stabbing through the bars. Still the giant found the strength to reach through, twist the head off Spotted Pate, seize the iron gate, and wrench the bars apart. Links of broken chain lay strewn across the floor. One giant. All this was the work of one giant. “Are they all dead?” Maester Aemon asked softly. “Yes. Donal was the last.” Noye’s sword was sunk deep in the giant’s throat, halfway to the hilt. The armorer had always seemed such a big man to Jon, but locked in the giant’s massive arms he looked almost like a child. “The giant crushed his spine. I don’t know who died first.”

 

 

So its possible Joramun was something of a bound giant... but what bound him? and what was he release from?  Was it an oath, a promise, guestright, or was it something more literal. 

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