Star Wars Thread: I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ran]

Enough, folks.

[divica]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Enough, folks.

If you think the tone used in the last posts was incorrect then I think you should also erase the posts that lead to them.

Otherwise, if later anyone coments in the previous posts we will end in the same place.

[DMC]

ETA:  Didn't see Ran's post.

49 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

It's like you get me...

Not enough to get your love for the non-DH NL 

[Darth Richard II]

8 minutes ago, DMC said:

ETA:  Didn't see Ran's post.

Not enough to get your love for the non-DH NL 

OK, I'll bite. Whats the non-DH NL?

[DMC]

The National League (NL) in major league baseball does not have a designated hitter (DH), while the American League does.  This has been the case since...1974?  Gonna look it up now to see if I'm right on that date.

[Darth Richard II]

Oh, SPORTS.

[karaddin]

On 2/11/2019 at 5:01 AM, Corvinus said:

So the real question is why are these villains so damn incompetent? Maybe this doesn't constitute an example of a "plot hole", but it does constitute poor writing. 

Have you seen the real world recently? The idea that Nazis are a collection of super efficient and competent people is itself a result of Nazi propaganda influencing how they were viewed. Evil people don't have to be competent to be a threat, the malicious motivations are what is the scary and threatening part. Not being bound by things like logic and integrity are really powerful when people on the other side keep thinking they're in a good faith debate.

Regarding the Rose/Finn thing - it's not that his ship couldn't have reached the cannon before it "fired" - it's that the cannon firing isn't a single shot projectile - it's a laser beam powering up and Finn's skimmer was single digit seconds away from disintegrating in the heat and wouldn't have held together as an effective projectile. I don't think it's fair to criticise that from a writing perspective, but 100% fair to criticise it from not being clear visually that this is what was happening. I disagree, but what's clear to a person varies.

I'm also amazed at someone in this thread acting like TLJ critics are martyrs when a significant majority of posts (and posters) in the last 5 pages are critical of the film. I wish it were otherwise because I personally loved it, but it clearly didn't deliver an experience that worked for the entirety of the SW fan base.

[Darth Richard II]

7 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Have you seen the real world recently? The idea that Nazis are a collection of super efficient and competent people is itself a result of Nazi propaganda influencing how they were viewed. Evil people don't have to be competent to be a threat, the malicious motivations are what is the scary and threatening part. Not being bound by things like logic and integrity are really powerful when people on the other side keep thinking they're in a good faith debate.

Regarding the Rose/Finn thing - it's not that his ship couldn't have reached the cannon before it "fired" - it's that the cannon firing isn't a single shot projectile - it's a laser beam powering up and Finn's skimmer was single digit seconds away from disintegrating in the heat and wouldn't have held together as an effective projectile. I don't think it's fair to criticise that from a writing perspective, but 100% fair to criticise it from not being clear visually that this is what was happening. I disagree, but what's clear to a person varies.

I'm also amazed at someone in this thread acting like TLJ critics are martyrs when a significant majority of posts (and posters) in the last 5 pages are critical of the film. I wish it were otherwise because I personally loved it, but it clearly didn't deliver an experience that worked for the entirety of the SW fan base.

Yeah I said one of the things i didn't like about the film was that point wasn't made clear.

 

Edit: And yeah, I don't want to restart a fight, but 1. I apologize if at some point I indicated someone was racist just for criticizing it, which I don't THINK i did, but maybe I did? The thread got kind of nuts and 2. I have had plenty of semi civil discussion in here with people who hate the movie. Sure, I sometimes want to slap Jace around with a giant trout, but that doesn't mean I think she's scum or a Nazi or whatever.

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, Darth Richard II said:

Yeah I said one of the things i didn't like about the film was that point wasn't made clear.

I meant to detail more how I interpret it firing, it seemed to me like it charges from 0->100% in a linear fashion and 100% is what it could sustain as a beam, but once it hits 100% it jumps up to say 1000% for a pulse then shuts off which what we see as it "firing". Finn gets knocked out of the beam when it's probably around 75%.

[DMC]

9 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Have you seen the real world recently? The idea that Nazis are a collection of super efficient and competent people is itself a result of Nazi propaganda influencing how they were viewed.

Hey!  Goring actually was an air commander before the Nazis and..*looks at the CVs for all other high level Nazis*..and that's all.  I guess Heydrich too.

14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I'm also amazed at someone in this thread acting like TLJ critics are martyrs when a significant majority of posts (and posters) in the last 5 pages are critical of the film.

Yes considering I'm one of those critics I found it particularly amusing.

[Jace, Extat]

12 minutes ago, DMC said:

Hey!  Goring actually was an air commander before the Nazis and..*looks at the CVs for all other high level Nazis*..and that's all.  I guess Heydrich too.

 

Morphine can turn a fighter ace into a Herman Goring.

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Morphine can turn a fighter ace into a Herman Goring.

Well done.

[Corvinus85]

36 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Have you seen the real world recently? The idea that Nazis are a collection of super efficient and competent people is itself a result of Nazi propaganda influencing how they were viewed. Evil people don't have to be competent to be a threat, the malicious motivations are what is the scary and threatening part. Not being bound by things like logic and integrity are really powerful when people on the other side keep thinking they're in a good faith debate.

I don't know, sure that can be the case, but I wouldn't say it's the case for creating a great story. And against Poe Dameron, just having malicious intent, and no competence behind it, isn't enough to even create a challenge.

[DMC]

3 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I don't know, sure that can be the case, but I wouldn't say it's the case for creating a great story.

Why is the villain being competent a prerequisite for creating a great story?

[karaddin]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I don't know, sure that can be the case, but I wouldn't say it's the case for creating a great story. And against Poe Dameron, just having malicious intent, and no competence behind it, isn't enough to even create a challenge.

Incompetent or not, Poe still lost almost his entire fighter + bomber wing at the start of the movie and Ren wasn't even there for that. The only reason they didn't all die at the end of the movie was Luke creating a distraction and Rey being there with an evac ship big enough to carry the handful of resistance left and the ability to left rocks to clear the tunnel. 

The leader of the First Order military is a sputtering joke but that doesn't make them not a threat. 

[Corvinus85]

23 minutes ago, DMC said:

Why is the villain being competent a prerequisite for creating a great story?

Because, as I explained in a longer post a few pages back, it forces the heroes to rise to a higher level to beat them. Poe Dameron has a decent arc in this film, true, but it mainly deals with changing his attitude. He already has all the skills necessary to achieve most of his goals. Opposite the likes of Hux, we have, in the Star Wars universe, Thrawn, who poses a huge challenge to the heroes, that they can't just rely on the same tactics and strategies. 

Also, if you look at other movies, like the MCU movies, the ones with a better and stronger villain tended to be better overall. 

14 minutes ago, karaddin said:

Incompetent or not, Poe still lost almost his entire fighter + bomber wing at the start of the movie and Ren wasn't even there for that. The only reason they didn't all die at the end of the movie was Luke creating a distraction and Rey being there with an evac ship big enough to carry the handful of resistance left and the ability to left rocks to clear the tunnel. 

The leader of the First Order military is a sputtering joke but that doesn't make them not a threat. 

Well I suppose the First Order as an entity is a big threat, on account of numbers and firepower. And the fact that the story, starting with TFA really, created the situation where the good guys are once again ridiculously outnumbered, and the bad guys are in the plenty.

To be fair, I liked how TLJ ended - there's opportunity here for a good turnaround of the good guys' fortunes, if JJ can bring it. There are historical parallels when one side was so beaten you couldn't possibly think they could win, but win they did. (ex. Robert the Bruce)

[DMC]

12 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Also, if you look at other movies, like the MCU movies, the ones with a better and stronger villain tended to be better overall. 

I don't think competent is necessarily correlated to a better and stronger villain, let alone synonymous.  An incompetent villain(s) can be just as interesting, and I'd argue based on the past 18 years just as appropriate.

[karaddin]

Yeah, it's the entity as a whole that is the threat, irrespective of the incompetence of the individuals within it. I interpret that as being one of the main points, not an accident. We have a tendency to look at the prominent figures in a movement and dismiss the threat they pose if they're incompetent/a joke, but that can be a very bad idea that bites us in the ass. Someone wanting to carry out evil is a threat, whether we can understand why anyone would follow them or not. Take their promises of what they will do seriously. 

[Astromech]

Honestly, emotionally immature incompetents with Death Stars and Starkiller bases are much more terrifying than rational, competent villains with such weapons.

[Corvinus85]

When I say incompetence, I mean not being good at your job, being stupid etc. It's not the same as being or not being a psychopath or sociopath. Such a person with skill and talent is much more likely to both be unpredictable and use said weapons to great effect vs a moron equipped with those weapons.