Star Wars Thread: I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[karaddin]

We are using the same meaning of incompetence. Money and numbers can more than make up for a short fall of competency if the difference is great enough. On the individual level someone incompetent and wild may do things that are harder to predict because they don't follow from a rational thought. Or they might harm themselves in a way a competent person would never do, that happens to harm you as well or even everyone just because they don't see or don't care about the consequences.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

When I say incompetence, I mean not being good at your job, being stupid etc. It's not the same as being or not being a psychopath or sociopath.

Sure, we're working on the same definition.

6 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Such a person with skill and talent is much more likely to both be unpredictable and use said weapons to great effect vs a moron equipped with those weapons. 

I don't think a competent person is more unpredictable than an incompetent person.  At all.  In fact, if you've had experience with formal models, it's much easier to assume the players are "rational," which in large part means competent.  As for using such weapons to greater effect, how much competence does it take to say "blow that shit up"?  Which is ultimately what we're talking about when it comes to Star Wars weapons.

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, karaddin said:

I'm also amazed at someone in this thread acting like TLJ critics are martyrs when a significant majority of posts (and posters) in the last 5 pages are critical of the film. I wish it were otherwise because I personally loved it, but it clearly didn't deliver an experience that worked for the entirety of the SW fan base.

Meh, that was a little too far.  Though I’ve seen extremes have gone back in forth when the topic is this movie. “You’re a bigot for thinking this character’s actions are dumb(utter none sense)” or “you’re an SJW-Beta cuck for liking this movie(also none sense)”. I don’t particularly fault anyone for liking the movie. Or disliking it. I just think people need to be careful before they make sweeping generalizations about someone on the other side.

 

1 hour ago, karaddin said:

Incompetent or not, Poe still lost almost his entire fighter + bomber wing at the start of the movie and Ren wasn't even there for that. The only reason they didn't all die at the end of the movie was Luke creating a distraction and Rey being there with an evac ship big enough to carry the handful of resistance left and the ability to left rocks to clear the tunnel. 

The leader of the First Order military is a sputtering joke but that doesn't make them not a threat. 

Yeah, the first order’s effectiveness despite their showing of incompetence doesn’t jive. The leaders of the first order don’t have to be all military geniuses, but portraying them as being lead by complete idiots makes one wonder too much on how the organization was able have had any military success or how these people were even able to get up as far up the as they did in a military order or why the protagonists are having so much trouble defeating the villain. 

The villian doesn’t have to be Uber competent every in work of fiction. But honestly, if they’re not remotely competent their threat level to the protagonists of the story will seem less drastic.

[Darth Richard II]

16 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

When I say incompetence, I mean not being good at your job, being stupid etc. It's not the same as being or not being a psychopath or sociopath. Such a person with skill and talent is much more likely to both be unpredictable and use said weapons to great effect vs a moron equipped with those weapons. 

I dunno, would you really want Trump to have a Death Star?

[Corvinus85]

Just now, Darth Richard II said:

I dunno, would you really want Trump to have a Death Star?

I was hoping no one would bring him up in this thread. Well done! Pelosi clap!!!  

[Corvinus85]

Snoke says something along the lines of this debate in TLJ. "A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool." But we don't really see a payoff from this in the movie. Maybe the part where Hux quickly submits to Kylo, but really what was he to do in that situation? I can't think of anything else.

And again, why not shoot at the ships first, before they escape? Why not engage with all the ships, letting only the Dreadnought to do all the fighting? Just the product of extreme hubris and arrogance, or actual incompetence?

[DMC]

2 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Maybe the part where Hux quickly submits to Kylo, but really what was he to do in that situation?

Hux also quickly submitted to Ren because Ren, ya know, force-choked him.  Anyway, the example of such incompetence is kind of Snoke.  He apparently built a separatist regime that is on the cusp of taking over the galaxy, yet he was easily killed by a pupil he thought he had complete control over.  It's the same death as Palpatine, yeah, but I think it's a pretty fair demerit on the competency list.

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

And again, why not shoot at the ships first, before they escape? Why not engage with all the ships, letting only the Dreadnought to do all the fighting? Just the product of extreme hubris and arrogance, or actual incompetence?

To be clear, not defending any of this.  I agree it's lazy writing.

[karaddin]

32 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I was hoping no one would bring him up in this thread. Well done! Pelosi clap!!!  

He's not the only example from current events. I wouldn't want Bolsonaro to have a death star either. And with the poor showing of competency and placing their own political fortunes ahead of the national good, I wouldn't way Theresa May or the current Australian government to have on either. There's no shortage of incompetency in national leadership roles at the moment.

ETA: The rabid cur thing had a double meaning, it was ostensibly telling Kylo about Hux but it was just as much about Kylo himself and part of putting him down. It was stating exactly what Smoke was doing with him and it was a miscalculation on the part of the (less competent then he seemed) supreme leader that contributed to him getting offed. That's the part that had narrative pay off in the movie.

I remain convinced the villains 'victory' at the end of the second movie plants the seeds for his ultimate fall. In the OT it was the loss of Luke's hand that reminded him of his connection to his father and pulled him back from the dark side that ultimately defeated the emperor. In this case Hux and the rest of the FO forces saw Kylo humiliated even in victory right after his ascension to the leadership, he will make the same mistake with respect to Hux that Snoke did with him. In the OT it was the redemption of Vader that saves them, I don't think that's going to be repeated and instead it will be the infighting and rabid ambition among the FO that does.

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I wouldn't want Bolsonaro to have a death star either.

Imagine Berlusconi with the death star.  He'd have sex with it, but of course would never be able to find the exhaust port.

[Corvinus85]

22 minutes ago, DMC said:

Anyway, the example of such incompetence is kind of Snoke.  He apparently built a separatist regime that is on the cusp of taking over the galaxy, yet he was easily killed by a pupil he thought he had complete control over.  It's the same death as Palpatine, yeah, but I think it's a pretty fair demerit on the competency list.

I didn't mind that part at all. We see how powerful in the force Snoke is. Yes, he becomes arrogant, but then again, that's a trait of all Sith-like people. What Kylo Ren does is take advantage of that, and use Snoke's own abilities against him, which is not unlike what Rey did to Kylo in TFA, when he probed her mind and she threw it back at him. So I wouldn't say Snoke was incompetent, but he had reached his peak, and Kylo topped him. 

[karaddin]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

Imagine Berlusconi with the death star.  He'd have sex with it, but of course would never be able to find the exhaust port.

Another illustrative if unpleasant example

[DMC]

6 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Yes, he becomes arrogant, but then again, that's a trait of all Sith-like people.

I'm just saying we only get like, what, 5 scenes of him?  Only a few where we actually get to meet him.  And in his main scene, he makes a fatal mistake.

[Derfel Cadarn]

4 hours ago, Corvinus said:

Snoke says something along the lines of this debate in TLJ. "A cur's weakness, properly manipulated, can be a sharp tool." But we don't really see a payoff from this in the movie. Maybe the part where Hux quickly submits to Kylo, but really what was he to do in that situation? I can't think of anything else.

And again, why not shoot at the ships first, before they escape? Why not engage with all the ships, letting only the Dreadnought to do all the fighting? Just the product of extreme hubris and arrogance, or actual incompetence?

In Empire Strikes Back, why didnt Vader's fleet launch a screen Of TIE's to intercept the fleeing transports (guarded by 2 X-Wings each), thus making the ion cannon pretty useless as it only knocked out the capital ships?

[felice]

10 hours ago, DMC said:

ultimately, Finn's attempted sacrifice did not matter.  They got out anyway.

At the cost of Luke's life! If Finn had succeeded in disabling the weapon - even minor damage that would only take a few minutes to fix - they'd have had time to escape without Luke having to sacrifice himself as a distraction. An experienced Jedi would probably have been more use to the Resistance than one ex-stormtrooper.

[red snow]

Johnson had to confirm he hasn't abandoned his trilogy on twitter after rumours stating otherwise. Could be nothing or could be the start of a long winded climb down like batfleck.

Johnson must have kept his Twitter social media accounts pretty clean for bots and menchildren not to have used them against him now it's ban established disney firing trigger.

[Corvinus85]

5 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

In Empire Strikes Back, why didnt Vader's fleet launch a screen Of TIE's to intercept the fleeing transports (guarded by 2 X-Wings each), thus making the ion cannon pretty useless as it only knocked out the capital ships?

I wasn't defending anything in ESB. And we can criticize the entire saga on battle tactics if we want. But the TLJ battle in the beginning is really simple, and could have easily been corrected by simply establishing that the base was the more immediate threat.

[Kalbear]

As I've said before when you start getting bugged by these kinds of details it has very little to do with the details and more to do that the movie didn't engage you or bothered you and you're looking for something to rationalize it. 

And that's fine! That's how everyone works. I think that the general chase and running out of fuel thing just didn't work well enough as a dramatic hook no matter how realistic in universe it was. It just didn't feel desperate enough. Compare that with a similar plot idea in BSG with 33, one of the best episodes of TV ever, and you can see that it isn't about the beat itself - it's about how they handled the drama.  

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

After reading the last few pages, all I can say is damn an average SW movie can get you guys and gals mad!

[Darth Richard II]

10 hours ago, red snow said:

Johnson had to confirm he hasn't abandoned his trilogy on twitter after rumours stating otherwise. Could be nothing or could be the start of a long winded climb down like batfleck.

Johnson must have kept his Twitter social media accounts pretty clean for bots and menchildren not to have used them against him now it's ban established disney firing trigger.

I remember after the Gunn thing, i think it was RJ who went and deleted all his tweets. Not that that matters thanks to internet archives.

[Slurktan]

19 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

In Empire Strikes Back, why didnt Vader's fleet launch a screen Of TIE's to intercept the fleeing transports (guarded by 2 X-Wings each), thus making the ion cannon pretty useless as it only knocked out the capital ships?

Because Vader picks terrible fleet commanders and captains because they are lickspittles.  I'm pretty sure the star destroyer that gets ion tagged without launching fighter screens (thus not allowing them to launch fighter screens) was future apologist Needa's.  You know the guy who got tricked by the old "land the ship on the star destroyer " gag.