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Jace, Basilissa

Star Wars Thread: I KNOW WHAT THAT IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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30 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

The quote I took from the previous thread responded to a comment about a poor ranking for TLJ with "Russian trolls" - as though such trolls made up the majority of the negative blowback.

Per the article, Russian trolls made up the majority of the negative blowback on twitter and facebook, either by amplifying exceptionally sexist or racist points. 

30 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I think various articles from blogs and news outlets, as well as forums, Twitter etc., show that the negativity is made up of a complex mix of reasons and people.

That doesn't mean that the majority of people who reported negative values were not, in fact, actual trolls. 

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1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

Compared to what? For a modern blockbuster its maybe par for the course, considering how bad most are. Compared to the original Ghostbusters movie its a travesty 

Don't google Ghostbusters II.

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16 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Per the article, Russian trolls made up the majority of the negative blowback on twitter and facebook, either by amplifying exceptionally sexist or racist points. 

That doesn't mean that the majority of people who reported negative values were not, in fact, actual trolls. 

Genuinely asking: do Twitter and Facebook comments impact on Rotten Tomato scores? 

I've seen enough criticism around this film to believe that it is deeply devisive. 

This might not be comparable but I'll throw it out there anyway! The majority opinion I've encountered about Infinity War has been positive.  Why should I believe my perception about that and not TLJ?

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1 hour ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Well that’s great! And no one is saying it isn’t possible to dislike the film and have valid criticisms. So when they talk about sexist, racist trolling, you can rest safe in the knowledge that it’s not you being referred to.

And I’m serious too, I am sure you do have valid criticisms. As do many others. Yet as soon  as trolls are mentioned people become defensive with their “Not all men critics” spiel. 

I didn’t mind the film overall, unsurprisingly my criticisms of the film aren’t about Luke or Tran.

Mostly they’re about Kylo being an embarrassment to the dark side.

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26 minutes ago, Mosi Mynn said:

Genuinely asking: do Twitter and Facebook comments impact on Rotten Tomato scores? 

I've seen enough criticism around this film to believe that it is deeply devisive. 

This might not be comparable but I'll throw it out there anyway! The majority opinion I've encountered about Infinity War has been positive.  Why should I believe my perception about that and not TLJ?

Why can't people who criticize this film spell? Seriously, what is with that?

Not a single person is telling you that your perception of the movie is wrong. What they are telling you, however, is that the idea that TLJ is somehow the Worst Movie EVER or has completely ruined Star Wars for ever is, well, just a biiiiit overblown. 

Also, and trust me I know how this sounds - Star Wars has a more divisive message than Avengers, especially right now. Having an authoritarian, racist group going after a bunch of multiracial people, complete with Kylo Ren literally using pick-up artist stuff in order to entice Rey - that's going to make a certain group of people really, really angry. I can't think of something like that in Avengers that would make anyone actually, well, angry. There are no real or perceived Trump analogues in Avengers. There are no rich people exploiting the masses in Avengers. There's a guy from space trying to steal a necklace from a wizard. 

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5 hours ago, red snow said:

did anyone watch the new cartoon? It's completely passed me by.

Resistance? You're not missing much so far. It's not entirely awful, but it's pretty lightweight and seems aimed at a younger audience than Clone Wars or Rebels.

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4 hours ago, Bittersweet Distractor said:

I didn’t mind the film overall, unsurprisingly my criticisms of the film aren’t about Luke or Tran.

Mostly they’re about Kylo being an embarrassment to the dark side.

The most disturbing part of that movie to me is we get literally over 2 hours of Kylo Ren suggesting he wants to do his own thing....

But then he just does the paint by numbers bad guy routine.

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5 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Compared to the level of online hate that it got. Colin Farrell wasn't required to run from the universe after the shitty Total Recall remake. Robocop didn't require Kinnaman to die in an internet fire. 

Jake Lloyd was devastated and quit acting because of the online hate he got. Hayden Christensen didn't fare much better.

George Lucas himself went from hero to zero after the prequels.

Michael Bay for Transformers.

Lucas and Speilberg got serious shit for Indy 4.

Shia LeBeouf for Transfomers and Indy.

Huge internet shitstorm when Ben Affleck got cast as Batman. 

Zack Snyder got massive amounts of hate for what he did to DCMU

Total Recall was only one movie, never much hype for a sequel, there was alsoa TV series that had no real connection to the movie, so as a franchise fans grumbled about the remake but there was no real outrage because the Arnold movie was stand alone and nothing could threaten that.

Robocop had 3 cinematic sequels, only one considered halfway decent, there was 1 season of an underrated live-action TV series, an animated TV series, and 4 horrible made-for-TV Sci-Fi Channel movies (back when it was Sci-Fi). 4 different actors who played Murphy/Robocop before the remake (5 if you count the voice actor from the cartoon). So fans were used to discontinuity with this franchise. 

I think how big a franchise is also effects fan excitement/backlash.

At this point in time, I'd put it something like this:
Star Wars >Marvel > DC > Transformers >>> Indiana Jones > Ghostbusters >>>>>>>>>>> Robocop >> Total Recall. With other franchises I didn't mention fitting along there at various points. So, Ghostbusters not as big as the biggest of the big but big enough for a fanbase to be seriously considered.

I also think Ghostbusters as a franchise, the two films and The Real Ghostbusters cartoon, while big in the 80's has grown even more popular and beloved by fans in the last decade or so, Robocop and Total Recall too, but not as much.

Think of the anger caused when Disney threw out the SW extended universe as canon, imagine if they did that with the movies. "We're starting from scratch, everything that happened in the first 6 movies never happened. Maybe there'd be some sighs of relief making the prequels non-canon but there would be holy hell if SW tried to continue with the original trilogy never happening.

That's what they did with Ghostbusters. With the original two movies, the animated series, and to a certain extent the sequel animated series, they had a pretty tight continuity, the close relationship between the cartoon and movies, especially for back in the 80's was kind of unique. Then the reboot comes along and wants to act like everything those characters did, in a very character driven franchise, never happened. Fans got pissed off.

Even with Star Trek they knew they had to establish that even if they were rebooting, this was a new timeline being created, the original still existed, and possibly would be revisited at some point. They knew there would be Hell to pay if they didn't.

I also feel that when the incel-manbaby-whiners catch even a whiff of fandom discord that they can use to further any of their causes they leap on the hate bandwagon whether they are/were a fan or not, just to stir up more shit and unfortunately sometimes some fans are stupid enough or blind enough in their rage to swallow their shit. So, no doubt that female/minority actors, will have to deal with the misogynist/bigoted/racist/hateful remarks in addition to normal fan rage when something sets the internet on fire, but most of the time it's more about it being more fuel for the fire because of who they are (which sucks and needs to change!) not that they ignited it for who they are.

 

Quote

Oh, sorry, I thought we were talking about the movie, not some random thing about the trailer and how insane people were for their trolling and massive hatred because of a trailer for a movie they hadn't seen yet. Sure, fine, whatever.

The number of ANY commenters compared to the people who watch are incredibly tiny. My point was that the abusers are a minority of the people who watched the film in general. As far as a comment section goes? As I said above, they were quite vocal and quite prevalent. 

I fail to see how that abuse benefited the movie. Again, citation needed. 

Agree here, however I do think Sony hoped it would and actively pursued/encouraged it.

citation:

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/tom-rothman-spider-man-plans-904849

 

Quote

How do you think the Ghostbusters online bashing will impact the film?
It’s the greatest thing that ever happened. Are you kidding me? We’re in the national debate, thank you. Can we please get some more haters to say stupid things?

 

For the record I'm fine with people loving or hating Star Wars, Ghostbusters, etc. I'm going to speak my mind, criticize or defend something, debate about it, but my opinions will be based on the work-in-question's merit, not some stupid prejudices or outside agendas. Sometimes like with Ghostbusters, the franchise as a whole will have an effect (good or bad) on my opinion of an individual work within it, but it won't be the deciding factor. I can say that about most franchises, Star Wars, Marvel, DC, The Matrix, Transformers, etc. I'll state my case though and why I think it's relevant.

I won't like something because I "should" and I won't hate something because I "should".

I also don't believe any franchise can truly ever die, but Star Wars is the furthest ever from even being thought that it might be dying out. I do believe that bots got into the mix to stir up trouble with the SW metrics boosting the manbabies' unfavorable ratings. It will take a hell of a lot more to kill SW than TLJ and Solo.

 

 

5 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

I liked the new GB. Way better then GB2.

I love the first GB movie, I think it's one of the greatest films of all time. I thought the sequel was a good movie, but not great. I think the "real" GB animated series is great too and an important part of the franchise. I think I need to look more into that sequel extreme GB animated series. Though things from the 90's that are titled "extreme" irk me.

The GB reboot was garbage to me.

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6 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

You know I thought luke drinking the space tit milk was probably the most George Lucas like moment of the Disney era films so far.

It was a bit chock full of symbolism, wasn't it? 

That TLJ was full of those moments of Johnson using the story and charactes to simply just talk to the fan (if they were willing to listen), was one of the movie's strengths.

Poe still should have died in that fiery crash on Jakuu.  Damn it JJ.

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7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

Why can't people who criticize this film spell? Seriously, what is with that?

Not a single person is telling you that your perception of the movie is wrong. What they are telling you, however, is that the idea that TLJ is somehow the Worst Movie EVER or has completely ruined Star Wars for ever is, well, just a biiiiit overblown. 

Also, and trust me I know how this sounds - Star Wars has a more divisive message than Avengers, especially right now. Having an authoritarian, racist group going after a bunch of multiracial people, complete with Kylo Ren literally using pick-up artist stuff in order to entice Rey - that's going to make a certain group of people really, really angry. I can't think of something like that in Avengers that would make anyone actually, well, angry. There are no real or perceived Trump analogues in Avengers. There are no rich people exploiting the masses in Avengers. There's a guy from space trying to steal a necklace from a wizard. 

Oh for goodness sake - posting on a phone leads to typos, and the inability to break up quotes to answer them properly. So sorry for the spelling mistakes.

Where have I said that I think TLJ is the worst movie ever? I believe I said my reaction to it is mostly meh.

I did not get the Trump analogy in Star Wars! If it helps you any,  I have seen the folk you're talking about criticise or comment on the diversity in Infinity War. But they were clearly looking for things to rag on that fit their worldview, and it's a minority view because Infinity War holds together pretty well narratively speaking,  and pays off a lot of the preceding build up.

Edited by Mosi Mynn

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9 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

You know I thought luke drinking the space tit milk was probably the most George Lucas like moment of the Disney era films so far.

I have my share of issues with the Disney era saga films, but Luke being all crazy-eyed and drinking space tit milk wasn't one of them.

If anything it was a highlight.

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What about an all Wookie movie (AWM) ?      This would eliminate the spoken word, which has been the downfall of the series.   Throw out the script and write with action and emotion instead of silly words that just got Ryan in trouble.   Chewie had a furry friend in Episode iii---it could be a buddy movie.  Love scenes, chest pounding, finding huge fruit and celebrating, saving the franchise by showing the audience they're the real brains behind the rebel alliance who are working toward meaningful goals while the idiot rebel fleet from the last movie acts as the decoy.

Edited by The Mother of The Others

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16 minutes ago, The Mother of The Others said:

What about an all Wookie movie (AWM) ?

Like this, you mean?

 

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I also don't believe any franchise can truly ever die, but Star Wars is the furthest ever from even being thought that it might be dying out. I do believe that bots got into the mix to stir up trouble with the SW metrics boosting the manbabies' unfavorable ratings. It will take a hell of a lot more to kill SW than TLJ and Solo.

Star Wars is really far from dying. There is a misty eyed romantic view of the franchise as this untouched, pure version you see in the OT. But in reality there are so many awful iterations of Star Wars throughout the years that it seems nothing can kill it. Whether its the Christmas special, Caravan of Courage, Droids, The Prequels or drinking green milk.. the universe is seemingly stuck in our psyche and I don't think its going anywhere.

Which is why I don't know what gets those corners of the internet so upset all the time. Their precious franchise was ruined almost from day one

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8 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

The most disturbing part of that movie to me is we get literally over 2 hours of Kylo Ren suggesting he wants to do his own thing....

But then he just does the paint by numbers bad guy routine.

Yes I agree, I also just find his brand of villainy too angsty and irritating. Ok I’m a self confessed Palpatine fan girl but Kylo and Snoke just can’t compete with him or Vader as villains.

I can see why some people were dissapointed with Lukes role in the film but I quite liked it myself, the whole astral projection thing was really cool.

Edited by Bittersweet Distractor

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8 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

The most disturbing part of that movie to me is we get literally over 2 hours of Kylo Ren suggesting he wants to do his own thing....

But then he just does the paint by numbers bad guy routine.

I agree with this too.

I was hoping Ren and Rey would join forces to find a third way in the Force - which is why I liked the idea of Rey being Luke's daughter.  It would have been an interesting end to the Skywalker saga to have Leia's son and Luke's daughter finding a way forward that's neither Sith nor Jedi.  Rey may still do that, of course.  But Ren went from interesting character to flat-out boring villain in TLJ, which was disappointing to me.

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6 hours ago, Mosi Mynn said:

I agree with this too.

I was hoping Ren and Rey would join forces to find a third way in the Force - which is why I liked the idea of Rey being Luke's daughter.  It would have been an interesting end to the Skywalker saga to have Leia's son and Luke's daughter finding a way forward that's neither Sith nor Jedi.  Rey may still do that, of course.  But Ren went from interesting character to flat-out boring villain in TLJ, which was disappointing to me.

I don't see how someone who kills his dad in cold blood should be someone who is redeemed so easily, and certainly not by Rey. 

I personally like it a lot more for this. Ren is someone who unlike Vader chose the evil path because he wanted to. Not because of love, or because of power, but because he wanted to prove how great he could be - he did it for glory. He isn't cold and calculating either; he's absurdly impetuous, self-damaging, cruel, and excellent at manipulation. 

He's not at all like Palpatine. He doesn't scheme, nor does he think he should be in charge of everything because he wants the power. He is constantly striving to show the universe that he's worthy of a legacy that he inherited, and he's doing it in the only way he knows how - by emulating those who were worthy before him. 

Ren is, in short, a very good analogy for the fandom and the series of Star Wars after the original trilogy. 

And on his 'do his own thing' - he does want that. He wants to obliterate the resistance and the last remnants of his background so he can move on. He wants to kill the past. He goes apeshit about killing Luke not because Luke is destined to beat him, but because it's another reminder of his past. At the same time, he's willing to kill his own master, wipe out most of the First Order, take Rey on and rule together with her, and do something different. It didn't work, so he turns to things he knows a bit more, but he absolutely tried and almost succeeded. 

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8 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Which is why I don't know what gets those corners of the internet so upset all the time. Their precious franchise was ruined almost from day one

Jar Jar got so much negative attention because he stood out as a character fans wished would just die.    Now every character fits that description.   It's a significant change.   

The stupidity of the series used to be an aftertaste, not the main course.   The meals Lucas served up had lovable dumb characters who deserved to exist because they plugged in to life's struggle in a way that uplifted the audience and maintained our fascination over the years, giving us hope there'd still be a place for humanity in a scary tech-dominated future.  Now that we are beginning to realize that won't be the case, the star wars series comes back as a downer to confirm our feelings of obsolescence by giving us dim characters who don't deserve to exist. 

We have "asian pilot (woo-hoo!) who tries to suicide the rebel alliance to save one idiot who maybe might kiss her someday but probably not."  She's a metaphor for the Star Wars franchise as a whole, which just tried to commit suicide in its last couple few outings but managed to survive, not because it should have but just because the fans donated blood.   Like how the rebels got to survive a movie in which they had earned extinction.

And Kylo is like that pro wrestler who changes gimmicks and flips from bad guy to good to bad in a desperate attempt to get a response from the crowd but nobody cares enough to cheer or boo because his act is just so horrible it creates no rooting interest except for him to die.  First you want him to take off the stupidest helmet of all time, then the next movie he does, but by the time his stupid face is done "acting" in VIII you want him to put the helmet back on to hide him away so the forgetting can begin.   Darth didn't suffer from such meaninglessness.

Young Annakin was played annoyingly, but you knew a story was being told that was important in mythy and lifey ways so you stuck with it through the rough patches.  Whereas this new production crew clearly had nothing when they started and it shows.  The disney gods told them to make movies to cash in on the Star Wars name and they complied with the deadlines, but brought nothing to the table in terms of mythological content or life affirming storytelling or giving a damn about the characters or honoring the cultural import of the franchise.  It's a significant change.   It's gone from hallowed to hollow.   

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