Therae Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Maybe because it's just exerpted here--I mean, I see the statement--but I am not seeing that LmL means the trees themselves are conduits, either. If he does, I suppose I just disagree. Looks to me like their armor has the ability to take on the appearance of natural surroundings (just about exactly like the elven cloaks Galadriel gave to the Fellowship), and that the Others move under cover of shadow in the forest, which is no surprise as they don't like light. I really don't see anything to indicate they somehow travel through the weirnet. However, if it turns out to be the case that they do, the magic in the Wall, as has been noted upthread, whether it's from the Children or tied to the faithfulness of the men of the Watch or both or something else altogether, appears so far to prevent them from passing (including by teletreetation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 It's been a while for me, but I have read all of LML's essays. I do not recall him suggesting that the Others literally come from the trees. Symbolically, yes. If he did suggest this, it would be on one if his earlier essays, making it even tougher for me to remember. I wish @LmL was still frequenting the boards and could answer you himself. You could check into it though. lucifermeanslightbringer.com Sorry, I don't know how to post a link from my phone. It would be one of the earlier essays. It's going to be a lot to dig through but it is worth it, IMO. Even though I don't necessarily agree with everything he writes, he definitely gives you some new ideas to think about and is able to do it with clear and entertaining writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OtherFromAnotherMother Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I'm with @Therae here. I think George is using the word "wood" to mean group of trees or forest. Not literally coming out of wood. But I have been wrong before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Therae Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said: But I have been wrong before. Me too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 Hi @Sea Dragon , nice to see some people talking about this theory. It's been a topic of discussion between a group of us on Twitter for a while, focusing on Lml's original theory. I think the (awesome) poster you tried to link is @ravenous reader and you are right to call her in for this chat, she has a good understanding of the idea as a whole. The term 'Others coming from the tree's' shouldn't be taken literally, they haven't just morphed from the actual tree and started walking about. Rather it should be seen as a symbolic explanation for their appearance from the weirnet. Tree warriors, once entrenched in the wwnet only to be released at some point in time from the net/ww trees for a reason still being debated. It tends to be along the line that once the 1st men/humans invaded the net/entered the net it was a reaction in defence of a potential violation etc. There are various passages of text that hint towards a warrior emerging from trees or ww trees specifically. I shall have to return to supply said quotes as I'm not at home right now. Needless to say I like this idea a lot and will try and shed some light on a fully fleshed out version for your reading. Cheers Sea Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 As promised, here's a brief synopsis of the 'Others emerge from the trees' idea, together with some key illustrative quotes. Before I start, it must be said that these ideas rely on the symbolism to be found within the text, which can of course lead to varying opinions on what each different passage means. It is a large topic, but I will try to make it as easy to follow as possible. Firstly, there are many instances of GRRM figuratively comparing trees to warriors, which must be for some greater narrative purpose besides mere poetic personification. Consider..... Quote The trees stood shoulder to shoulder, like men in a battle line, all cloaked in white. [ADWD, Bran I] Quote The trees stood beneath him, warriors armored in bark and leaf, deployed in their silent ranks awaiting the command to storm the hill. [ACOK, Jon IV] Given the speculation surrounding whether the CotF may have created the Others for some martial purpose, the following quote is suggestive of the Others/warriors coming from the trees...……. Quote The wooden watchtower was the tallest thing this side of the mountains, rising twenty feet above the biggest sentinels and soldier pines in the surrounding woods. "There, Captain," said Cromm, when she made the platform. Asha saw only trees and shadows, the moonlit hills and the snowy peaks beyond. Then she realized that trees were creeping closer. "Oho," she laughed, "these mountain goats have cloaked themselves in pine boughs." The woods were on the move, creeping toward the castle like a slow green tide. She thought back to a tale she had heard as a child, about the children of the forest and their battles with the First Men, when the greenseers turned the trees to warriors. [ADWD, The Wayward Bride] We know the CotF fought the First Men, but unless the trees actually uprooted and fought these battles (like Tolkien's Ents), who are these 'warriors that come from the trees'? Because the only other people/beings we know of that were involved in this fight were the Others, it would make sense these tree warriors/Others were made by the Children [or their greenseers] to fight their cause. But are there any 'Other-tree' clues to back this up? Well we can start with the AGOT, Prologue..... Quote A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. [AGOT, Prologue] The shadow [or the Other] emerged from the wood. Symbolically, this would support the idea that they originally came from the trees, in addition to being described as looking like the 'deep grey-green of the trees'. The takeaway being that these icy warriors who look like trees came from the wood, or the weirwood net. Trees turned to warriors. So are there more Other-tree-warrior quotes.... Quote Behind him, to right, to left, all around him, the watchers [Others] stood patient, faceless, silent, the shifting patterns of their delicate armor making them all but invisible in the wood. Yet they made no move to interfere. [AGOT, Prologue] The Others are 'faceless & silent' plus 'all but invisible in the wood'. What would be perfect right now is a quote that has a Faceless Man mirroring these actions & acting as a symbolic Other. Well...... Quote Maybe she should pray aloud if she wanted the old gods to hear. Maybe she should pray longer. Sometimes her father had prayed a long time, she remembered. But the old gods had never helped him. Remembering that made her angry. "You should have saved him," she scolded the tree. "He prayed to you all the time. I don't care if you help me or not. I don't think you could even if you wanted to." "Gods are not mocked, girl." The voice startled her. She leapt to her feet and drew her wooden sword. Jaqen H'ghar stood so still in the darkness that he seemed one of the trees. "A man comes to hear a name. One and two and then comes three." [ACOK, Arya IX] Once Arya had prayed to the weirwood tree, Jaqen emerges and mirrors the actions of the Others from the Prologue. He is a 'faceless' man standing there 'patiently watching,' so 'silent' that the sound of his voice startles Arya. It's as if he was 'invisible in the woods'. This is another example of a faceless warrior emerging from the trees, who has echoes of the Others' description from AGOT. To add to this symbolism, Jaqen has the typical weirwood colours of red & white. Here is a further example of the same pattern from a Cat chapter...…. Quote And then at last she saw him … only for an instant, framed between the branches of the trees as she looked down at the valley floor, yet she knew it was him. Even at a distance, Ser Jaime Lannister was unmistakable. The moonlight had silvered his armor and the gold of his hair, and turned his crimson cloak to black. He was not wearing a helm. He was there and he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees once more. Others came behind him, long columns of them, knights and sworn swords and freeriders, three quarters of the Lannister horse. [AGOT, Catelyn X] Jaime and his men are warriors emerging from the trees in this passage [framed between the branches - obscured by trees]. They are also described as Other like. The moonlight has turned Jaime's hair & armour silver, which is consistent with the imagery and colour scheme given to the Others. And he is blending into the trees [he was there & he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees] just as the Others blend into the trees/their surroundings in the AGOT Prologue (in that same Whispering Wood passage from the Cat chapter mentioned above, soldiers are described as 'melting into the green'). Finally, Jaime's men [army of Other warriors] are literally described as Others, which tellingly is capitalized, which I'm sure is no coincidence. Here is another passage of text that hints at the Lannister army emerging from the trees being like the Others.... Quote Polliver was not so bad as some of the others, even though he'd stolen Needle. The night she was caught, the Lannister men had been nameless strangers with faces as alike as their nasal helms, but she'd come to know them all. [ACOK, Arya VI] The Lannister men are described as 'nameless strangers who all look alike'. Again, this calls back to the AGOT Prologue, in which the Others are compared to twins...... Quote They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them … four … five … Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. [AGOT, Prologue] If you are wondering why I've bolded the 'nameless' description [aren't the nameless gods exclusively referencing the CotF?] then I shall explain. There are examples where a character prays to the weirwood tree/old gods and then the Others appear from the wood/trees, the best examples of which are Will in the Prologue of AGOT and Varamyr in the Prologue of ADWD...….. Quote He whispered a prayer to the nameless gods of the wood, and slipped his dirk free of its sheath. He put it between his teeth to keep both hands free for climbing. The taste of cold iron in his mouth gave him comfort. Down below, the lordling called out suddenly, "Who goes there?" Will heard uncertainty in the challenge. He stopped climbing; he listened; he watched. The woods gave answer: the rustle of leaves, the icy rush of the stream, a distant hoot of a snow owl. The Others made no sound. [AGOT, Prologue] Straight after Will has whispered his prayer to the nameless gods, the Others appear (i.e. we can conclude that the nameless gods and the Others are equivalent here). It's as if they heard his prayer. Quote That was when he noticed that his fire had gone out. Only a grey-and-black tangle of charred wood remained, with a few embers glowing in the ashes. There's still smoke, it just needs wood. Gritting his teeth against the pain, Varamyr crept to the pile of broken branches Thistle had gathered before she went off hunting, and tossed a few sticks onto the ashes. "Catch," he croaked. "Burn." He blew upon the embers and said a wordless prayer to the nameless gods of wood and hill and field. The gods gave no answer. After a while, the smoke ceased to rise as well. Already the little hut was growing colder. Varamyr had no flint, no tinder, no dry kindling. He would never get the fire burning again, not by himself. "Thistle," he called out, his voice hoarse and edged with pain. "Thistle!" [ADWD, Prologue] We see again, as soon as Varamyr had prayed, the signature cold of the Others appears/is mentioned, followed of course by the Others actually turning up and wighting Thistle. [PS: See above Arya quote, in which Jaqen the assassin similarly appears from the weirwood after her prayer] The prayer-summoning-the-Others idea was first formulated in @ravenous reader's 'Killing Word' essay, which I recommend reading: Talking of language, here's another interesting parallel between the Others and the weirwood trees.... Quote The Other said something in a language that Will did not know; his voice was like the cracking of ice on a winter lake, and the words were mocking. [AGOT, Prologue] And the trees...... Quote The wights were almost on her. He heard the dark red leaves of the weirwood rustling, whispering to one another in a tongue he did not know. The starlight itself seemed to stir, and all around them the trees groaned and creaked. [ASOS, Samwell III] The Others and weirwood trees both speak in a language humans aren't able to comprehend. It is highly likely this language is the True Tongue. The True Tongue is linked to the language of the CotF, the naturalistic speech we find in the rustling of the leaves or the ravens whispering into Coldhands ear. Bran also thinks to himself that the howling of the wolves is a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. CONCLUSION As you can see, GRRM has interwoven several symbolic threads which can be traced throughout the novels. I hope to have given some textual evidence as to where the 'Others emerge from the trees' idea comes from. The Prologue gives us a few clues which can be linked through reading other passages of text symbolically. This is not my theory and I'm sure I have missed some important information, but I trust I've provided some insight into this important topic. Hopefully this post inspires some chat around this subject moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mother of The Others Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I'm kind of worried now, because, full disclosure- - - I have also walked through forests and then emerged from them. Going by this theory, that makes me an Other. So on the way home I tried not to emerge from the trees , you know, to distinguish myself as human....and I couldn't. Because you almost have to come out of trees once you walk in there. Have you tried not emerging? It's tough. You guys may have some soul searching to do too. You're all bigtime wood emergers. Unless someone's been bedridden since birth, in which case I apologize. What ever happened to... the sentinel trees are on guard against the Others ! whom the Weir-faces are also watching out for because of how silently Others invade the forest and need to be warned of by a weir alarm system, and the reason the Others come when you pray to the old gods is because it gets so cold and foreboding as the Others approach that you instinctively choose that last moment of life to pray to the old gods to save your shivering ass, but the cotf have no police force anymore so no one comes except the Others who hear your psychic flailing because they have spooky anti-life senses AND because they've won the forest war to the point that they're in the weirnet now, as per that vision of frozen greenseers galore. It's an incursion into the weir, not emerging from it because the cotf sent them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 2:10 PM, Sea Dragon said: Maybe. I mean sacrifice is a thing in this cruel world. The little girl that Drogon burns and eats could be a kind of sacrifice along with the other queenship powers building up around Danaerys. Those two are unrelated. We know the Starks practiced human sacrifice. Bran saw it in his vision. Fire & Blood confirmed it in a conversation between Allysanne, Jaeherys, and their counselors. The Starks sacrificed people to the trees and what better drama if they have to give one of theirs periodically. That would be awesome. Maybe Sansa and Rickon will get fed to the trees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dragon Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 6 hours ago, Enuma Elish said: Those two are unrelated. We know the Starks practiced human sacrifice. Bran saw it in his vision. Fire & Blood confirmed it in a conversation between Allysanne, Jaeherys, and their counselors. The Starks sacrificed people to the trees and what better drama if they have to give one of theirs periodically. That would be awesome. Maybe Sansa and Rickon will get fed to the trees. I don't know about some of this. It sounds like you may be rooting for some people to be evil in this story. I don't think it will be that easy sometimes. If I may ask because I have not had a chance to read the new book yet, but do you have a quote or section in the new book where the king and queen confirm this? Maybe I can skip ahead and read it now Dany is totally a god and a riteful one and maybe the only one. She is going to need or require or just be given sacrifices no matter what. That is what people do with gods and worship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sea Dragon Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share Posted January 25, 2019 On January 19, 2019 at 8:29 PM, Wizz-The-Smith said: As promised, here's a brief synopsis of the 'Others emerge from the trees' idea, together with some key illustrative quotes. Before I start, it must be said that these ideas rely on the symbolism to be found within the text, which can of course lead to varying opinions on what each different passage means. It is a large topic, but I will try to make it as easy to follow as possible. Firstly, there are many instances of GRRM figuratively comparing trees to warriors, which must be for some greater narrative purpose besides mere poetic personification. Consider..... Given the speculation surrounding whether the CotF may have created the Others for some martial purpose, the following quote is suggestive of the Others/warriors coming from the trees...……. We know the CotF fought the First Men, but unless the trees actually uprooted and fought these battles (like Tolkien's Ents), who are these 'warriors that come from the trees'? Because the only other people/beings we know of that were involved in this fight were the Others, it would make sense these tree warriors/Others were made by the Children [or their greenseers] to fight their cause. But are there any 'Other-tree' clues to back this up? Well we can start with the AGOT, Prologue..... The shadow [or the Other] emerged from the wood. Symbolically, this would support the idea that they originally came from the trees, in addition to being described as looking like the 'deep grey-green of the trees'. The takeaway being that these icy warriors who look like trees came from the wood, or the weirwood net. Trees turned to warriors. So are there more Other-tree-warrior quotes.... The Others are 'faceless & silent' plus 'all but invisible in the wood'. What would be perfect right now is a quote that has a Faceless Man mirroring these actions & acting as a symbolic Other. Well...... Once Arya had prayed to the weirwood tree, Jaqen emerges and mirrors the actions of the Others from the Prologue. He is a 'faceless' man standing there 'patiently watching,' so 'silent' that the sound of his voice startles Arya. It's as if he was 'invisible in the woods'. This is another example of a faceless warrior emerging from the trees, who has echoes of the Others' description from AGOT. To add to this symbolism, Jaqen has the typical weirwood colours of red & white. Here is a further example of the same pattern from a Cat chapter...…. Jaime and his men are warriors emerging from the trees in this passage [framed between the branches - obscured by trees]. They are also described as Other like. The moonlight has turned Jaime's hair & armour silver, which is consistent with the imagery and colour scheme given to the Others. And he is blending into the trees [he was there & he was gone again, his silvery armor obscured by the trees] just as the Others blend into the trees/their surroundings in the AGOT Prologue (in that same Whispering Wood passage from the Cat chapter mentioned above, soldiers are described as 'melting into the green'). Finally, Jaime's men [army of Other warriors] are literally described as Others, which tellingly is capitalized, which I'm sure is no coincidence. Here is another passage of text that hints at the Lannister army emerging from the trees being like the Others.... The Lannister men are described as 'nameless strangers who all look alike'. Again, this calls back to the AGOT Prologue, in which the Others are compared to twins...... If you are wondering why I've bolded the 'nameless' description [aren't the nameless gods exclusively referencing the CotF?] then I shall explain. There are examples where a character prays to the weirwood tree/old gods and then the Others appear from the wood/trees, the best examples of which are Will in the Prologue of AGOT and Varamyr in the Prologue of ADWD...….. Straight after Will has whispered his prayer to the nameless gods, the Others appear (i.e. we can conclude that the nameless gods and the Others are equivalent here). It's as if they heard his prayer. We see again, as soon as Varamyr had prayed, the signature cold of the Others appears/is mentioned, followed of course by the Others actually turning up and wighting Thistle. [PS: See above Arya quote, in which Jaqen the assassin similarly appears from the weirwood after her prayer] The prayer-summoning-the-Others idea was first formulated in @ravenous reader's 'Killing Word' essay, which I recommend reading: Talking of language, here's another interesting parallel between the Others and the weirwood trees.... And the trees...... The Others and weirwood trees both speak in a language humans aren't able to comprehend. It is highly likely this language is the True Tongue. The True Tongue is linked to the language of the CotF, the naturalistic speech we find in the rustling of the leaves or the ravens whispering into Coldhands ear. Bran also thinks to himself that the howling of the wolves is a language he had once known and somehow forgotten. CONCLUSION As you can see, GRRM has interwoven several symbolic threads which can be traced throughout the novels. I hope to have given some textual evidence as to where the 'Others emerge from the trees' idea comes from. The Prologue gives us a few clues which can be linked through reading other passages of text symbolically. This is not my theory and I'm sure I have missed some important information, but I trust I've provided some insight into this important topic. Hopefully this post inspires some chat around this subject moving forward. wow. This is a lot and thank you for this. So it is just a turn of phrase really? The discussions I saw do not mean the Others like walk out of the trees like the trees are doors? What you added is so cool. I never noticed this about Jaquen before. Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizz-The-Smith Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 7:05 PM, Sea Dragon said: wow. This is a lot and thank you for this. So it is just a turn of phrase really? The discussions I saw do not mean the Others like walk out of the trees like the trees are doors? What you added is so cool. I never noticed this about Jaquen before. Thank you. No problem, glad you enjoyed the read. So yeah, it is just a turn of phrase but relating to the language choice we find in the books. 'xxxxx' emerges from trees etc. Basically the Others coming from the weirnet. Cheers @Sea Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted January 29, 2019 Share Posted January 29, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 2:03 PM, Sea Dragon said: I don't know about some of this. It sounds like you may be rooting for some people to be evil in this story. I don't think it will be that easy sometimes. If I may ask because I have not had a chance to read the new book yet, but do you have a quote or section in the new book where the king and queen confirm this? Maybe I can skip ahead and read it now Dany is totally a god and a riteful one and maybe the only one. She is going to need or require or just be given sacrifices no matter what. That is what people do with gods and worship. It's a line from Septon Barth in Fire and Blood. The Starks are known to sacrifice people to the trees. Bran saw the vision in aDwD. Godric basically said the same thing to Davos, the First Men cut the guts out of people and hang them on their trees. I do root against Jon and the Starks. I'm not a fan of those folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Commentator Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 On 1/25/2019 at 7:36 AM, Enuma Elish said: Those two are unrelated. We know the Starks practiced human sacrifice. Bran saw it in his vision. Fire & Blood confirmed it in a conversation between Allysanne, Jaeherys, and their counselors. The Starks sacrificed people to the trees and what better drama if they have to give one of theirs periodically. That would be awesome. Maybe Sansa and Rickon will get fed to the trees. On 1/25/2019 at 2:03 PM, Sea Dragon said: I don't know about some of this. It sounds like you may be rooting for some people to be evil in this story. I don't think it will be that easy sometimes. If I may ask because I have not had a chance to read the new book yet, but do you have a quote or section in the new book where the king and queen confirm this? Maybe I can skip ahead and read it now Dany is totally a god and a riteful one and maybe the only one. She is going to need or require or just be given sacrifices no matter what. That is what people do with gods and worship. I may be of some help here. It was from an explanation from Septon Barth. Chapter 75 on the audible version, iirc. The First Men sacrificed blood to their trees. I also recall something Godric said to Davos. The north is savage. We hang lights on our trees during the holidays. The First Men butcher people and decorate the trees with entrails. Gives a very interesting meaning to "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" to feed and be fed to the heart tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.