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LordSeaSnake

The Fossoways of Cider Hall

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House Fossoway is counted as one of the major families in the Reach, with several Fossoways marrying into House Tyrell. In present day, we have Ser Jon Fossoway of the green-apples marrying Lord Mace Tyrell's sister, while Lady Leonette Fossoway marries Ser Garlan Tyrell. Another green-apple Fossoway also marries one of Lord Hightower's sons. In the past, we have Lady Florence Fossoway marrying Lord Martyn Tyrell, and according to MUSH, the lady mother of Lyonel Tyrell was also a Fossoway.

Evidently, the Fossoways are a pretty important house, but I find it odd that we do not know who the head of the house is, or if the Fossoways are still lords. We have a Lord of Cider Hall during the Dance, but there are indicators that the red-apple Fossoways have been demoted to landed knights in the present day. The semi-canon A World of Ice and Fire app refers to them as landed knights, while Ser Steffon Fossoway (the heir to Cider Hall) is hoping Prince Aerion makes him "Lord Fossoway", either indicating that Aerion would give him land and a title (creating a cadet branch, which is odd since he is already next in line for Cider Hall), or Aerion would raise the Fossoways to lords.

Is there any other lore indicating the present-day status of the Fossoways of Cider Hall? Are they lords or landed knights? Maybe they joined the Blackfyres, though I find it odd it wouldn't be mentioned in the Dunk and Egg series.

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Didn't the green apple Fossoways begin in the Dunk & Egg series? Dunk needs 6 to stand with him. Raymun Fossoway was squire to Ser Steffon Fossoway. Then Ser Steffon switched sides, to be the 7th man to stand with Prince Aerion. Raymun then pretty much renounces his kinship (for lack of a better word) with Steffon, begs Dunk to knight him, so he can stand in Steffon's place. Then Raymun has a new shield painted with the 'green apple', to distinguish himself from the 'red-apple'. 

I think that is how that went anyway.

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3 hours ago, Wolfkin said:

Didn't the green apple Fossoways begin in the Dunk & Egg series? Dunk needs 6 to stand with him. Raymun Fossoway was squire to Ser Steffon Fossoway. Then Ser Steffon switched sides, to be the 7th man to stand with Prince Aerion. Raymun then pretty much renounces his kinship (for lack of a better word) with Steffon, begs Dunk to knight him, so he can stand in Steffon's place. Then Raymun has a new shield painted with the 'green apple', to distinguish himself from the 'red-apple'. 

I think that is how that went anyway.

Yeah, the green-apple Fossoways are landed knights. See Jon Fossoway is the Knight of New Barrel. But we don't know what the status of the red-apple Fossoways. 

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My apologies, for not reading this correctly.
In the series thus far, we have 'met'

Cider Hill - the Red Apple Fossoways
Ser Bryan - slain @ Blackwater
Ser Tanton
Ser Edwyd - slain @ Blackwater
& Franklyn Flowers 'the Bastard of Cider Hill' who is a member of the Golden Company


New Barrel - the Green Apple Fossoways
Ser Jon - 'the knight of New Barrell' who is wed to Lady Janna Tyrell (Mace Tyrell's sister)
Lady Jeyne Fossoway who wed Ser Gunthor Hightower
Lady Leonetta Fossoway who wed Lord Garlan Tyrell of Brightwater Keep

That is all I have in my notes at the moment. I suppose  I could have missed one, which is why I am rereading the series AGAIN. So far I have not found a LORD mentioned pertaining to either House.

Edited by Wolfkin

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I had always assumed the Fossoways held the title Lord of Cider Hall due to their power, but it is possible they’re very prominent landed knights, like House Templeton in the Vale. 

It is interesting that the confirmed landed knights of New Barrel have secured such excellent marriages with the Tyrells and Hightowers. They must’ve risen high in the last century. But it should be noted that Lady Leonette’s branch is not mentioned - she may be of Cider Hall

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28 minutes ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

the confirmed landed knights of New Barrel

 

1 hour ago, Wolfkin said:

Ser Jon - 'the knight of New Barrell'

 

2 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

Yeah, the green-apple Fossoways are landed knights. See Jon Fossoway is the Knight of New Barrel. But we don't know what the status of the red-apple Fossoways. 

Where is it confirmed that the Fossoways of New Barrel are landed knights and hold the title Knight of New Barrel? I remember this was put forth in earlier discussions, but I do not know any source stating that. For the Fossoways of Cider Hall at least there is the entry of Cider Hall in the app.

7 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

and according to MUSH, the lady mother of Lyonel Tyrell was also a Fossoway.

I think Elio once stated that GRRM did not give them the name of Lyonels's mother, so looks like an invention of the MUSH.

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I don't think it's explicitly said that Jon Fossoway is the knight of New Barrel anywhere in the text.

That said, as far as I'm concerned, I take it as a given that they were landed knights at the time of The Hedge Knight (Ser Steffon's remark is clear enough for me) and at the time of the main series.

The Tyrell section of the appendixes for AFFC and ADWD include the lines:

  • his knights and sworn swords:
    • SER JON FOSSOWAY, of the green-apple Fossoways,
    • SER TANTON FOSSOWAY, of the red-apple Fossoways.

All the House sections are structured the same: first the Lord, then his family, then his household, and then his bannermen. For instance, Areoh Hotah comes before Lord Anders Yronwood, or Ser Desmond Grey comes before Lord Tytos Blackwood. Therefore, since the Fossoway entry is placed at the end of House Tyrell's section, we should deduce that Jon and Tanton are not considered part of Mace's household, but bannermen.

The Fossoways may have joined the Black Dragon and could have been demoted for that. It certainly seems that in the Reach it was where the houses that supported the rebellion where most punished, possibly because of Leo Tyrell's involvement.

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Where is it confirmed that the Fossoways of New Barrel are landed knights and hold the title Knight of New Barrel? I remember this was put forth in earlier discussions, but I do not know any source stating that. For the Fossoways of Cider Hall at least there is the entry of Cider Hall in the app.

I can't find this in the series at the moment - but if you check WIKI it does state 'the Knight of New Barrel'. 

Are we allowed to post links outside this forum? (sorry, I'm fairly new and don't know all the rules) 

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At least you are allowed to post links to the wiki, the host is the same.

And I know it is on the wiki, but the Knight of New Barrel thing is never mentioned anywhere and the landed knight thing is a bit ambigous (although I would consider the hairy bear's interpretation of the appendix the most likely one).

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12 hours ago, Jaehaerys Tyrell said:

But it should be noted that Lady Leonette’s branch is not mentioned - she may be of Cider Hall

Thank you for pointing this out Jaehaerys! I have a tiny question mark next to her name that I failed to notice last night when I posted my reply. Your reply had me double checking my notes. I will have to make that note! Thanks!!

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The only scenario that makes sense is that the Fossoways lost their lordship for siding with the Blackfyres. But I would expect that to be mentioned in the Dunk and Egg books. Additionally, why were the Fossoways demoted, but the Peakes, Reynes, Yronwoods, and Brackens were not?

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6 hours ago, LordSeaSnake said:

The only scenario that makes sense is that the Fossoways lost their lordship for siding with the Blackfyres. But I would expect that to be mentioned in the Dunk and Egg books. Additionally, why were the Fossoways demoted, but the Peakes, Reynes, Yronwoods, and Brackens were not?

Simple answer for that would be - because that's what Martin wanted. Peakes lost two castles and most of the land though. About others we have no information.

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It is mentioned repeatedly that a lot of houses of the reach we're against the Tyrells becoming Paramount of the Reach.  Perhaps the Fossoways were allies/supporters of the Tyrells early on and that's why they are so closely connected even though they are just knights

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I'd assume from statements made in The Hedge Knight that the Red Apple Fossoway's (Cider Hall) are landed knights, but very prominent ones and probably sworn directly to the Tyrell's, closer to actual Lords than the likes of the Farrings and Horpes but without the actual title. The New Barrel Fossoways with the Green Apple sigil are probably the more traditional level of landed knight, although their high marriages are a bit odd. I supposed maybe Aegon V might have done something that brought the two houses together or else they did something during the War of the Ninepenny Kings that caught the Tyrell's interest.

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On 1/23/2019 at 7:30 PM, GOLDENSTORMWOLF said:

It is mentioned repeatedly that a lot of houses of the reach we're against the Tyrells becoming Paramount of the Reach.  Perhaps the Fossoways were allies/supporters of the Tyrells early on and that's why they are so closely connected even though they are just knights

This is very likely, especially in light of the fact that Martyn Tyrell, who became Lord of Highgarden early on during the reign of Jaehaerys I, was also married to a Fossoway - Florence Fossoway, who effectively became Mistress of Coin when her husband was offered the job.

Back in those days the Redwynes still referred to the Tyrells - when talking to the king - as 'dolts', making it essentially impossible that they intermarried with those guys at that time.

Even during the Dance the Redwynes and Hightowers are close kin, but not the Hightowers/Redwynes and the Tyrells.

It seems that it took the Tyrells a long time to get where they are during the main series. One wonders whether Olenna Redwyne actually was the first Redwyne to marry a Lord of Highgarden. Even if not, I doubt there were many such marriages in the first two centuries after the Conquest.

But while the Tyrells slowly but surely took over the Reach their close allies from the start would have climbed to the top with them, pushing back those houses, like the Peakes, who had no close ties to the Tyrells and who were not so important that the Tyrells had to win them over rather than push them aside (i.e. the Hightowers, Redwynes, Rowans, etc.).

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