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US Politics: Shutbound & Down

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4 hours ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

Putting em all on the table, and maybe my stupid is showing extra obvious today, but I didn't understand either of these references.

As @Mindwalker pointed out, mine was a lazy reference to Bert Brecht's Three Penny Opera.

There are several versions on youtube.

I'll just leave two here Ella Fitzgerald and my personal favorite Frank Sinatra

I know, there's also one from Louis Armstrong, but that one is just not my cup of tea.

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Yeah, the deal as, will likely be, proposed isn't good enough. I'm hoping the Democrats reject it because it gives them nothing for something Trump dearly wants (wall funding). There's been some rumblings that this whole half baked offer is being made because the WH wanted to justify messing with Pelosi's travel.

Edited by Lord Dracarys

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4 minutes ago, DMC said:

That's just a ridiculous position.  Securing a pathway to citizenship for 1.8 million people is clearly a bigger victory both policy and politically than $5.7 billion in funding for a wall that will cost at least $15 billion.

I like you. I respect you. I often feel comfortable in deferring to you.

But in this you are wrong. 

This is a game of tomorrows. And you're playing it with yesterday's rules.

DACA is not a winning issue, it's a nothing issue.

And that's horrible. And it's awful and I hate having to type it now but look at the bigger picture! For once, for ONCE, the optics for Democrats are good across the board. There's support for standing up to this tantrum throwing madman. There's resolve against this boondoggle. 

And I know it seems so straightforward. It seems perfectly logical to make a deal here. Everyone wants it, look at the polls right? 

But the polls are too overwhelming. I have tears in my eyes right now thinking about all those people, and how we should be able to help them. How it looks like we can help them. But we can't right now. The stakes are too big, they're fucking everything. 84 per cent. That's the last poll I could find. 84 per cent of Americans think DACA kids should be taken care of. And that's too much.

There's no more political weight to draw on from DACA, it's tapped out. 

I know it looks counterintuitive, but a DACA resolution is so overwhelmingly popular that it means nothing. 84 per cent. 84 per cent of people wanted a solution. And nothing happened. Not only did nothing happen, the public turned on Democrats when they stood up for it. 16 per cent of America got to dictate their insanity on the rest of us because they tied DACA to putting 'real' Americans out of work. 

And you think we can just let them do it again?

These people need to be made whole, affirmed in their paths to citizenship. Because it is morally the right thing to do. But it's not going to be the political victory you're imagining. There's too much broad support. The Republicans will swoop in and siphon idiot centrists who think reasonable heads prevailed. At this point saying you support DACA is no different than saying you 'Support the Troops'. It's just words. Checking a box on the societal immunization card.

 

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7 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

And it's awful and I hate having to type it now but look at the bigger picture! For once, for ONCE, the optics for Democrats are good across the board. There's support for standing up to this tantrum throwing madman. There's resolve against this boondoggle. 

It's you who's not looking at the bigger picture.  How long will Democrats have the optics advantage if they're unwilling to give a path to citizenship in exchange for a pittance of wall funding?  

9 minutes ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I know it looks counterintuitive, but a DACA resolution is so overwhelmingly popular that it means nothing. 84 per cent. 84 per cent of people wanted a solution. And nothing happened. Not only did nothing happen, the public turned on Democrats when they stood up for it.

Yes, this logic is insanely counterintuitive, to put it nicely.  Extracting a concession that is insanely popular means nothing?  The public didn't want the government shutdown for DACA or the wall last year.  This time, Trump shutdown the government.  You're worried about the GOP swooping in and getting credit from idiot centrists if the deal was made, but not the reaction of these idiot centrists if Pelosi refused such a deal.

Anyway, this is almost certainly hypothetical anyway.  Trump wasn't willing to deal on DACA for 5 times this amount of wall funding last year.  Why?  Because his base views a pathway to citizenship for DACA and TPS as amnesty.  And that hasn't changed.  The point is using the pathway to citizenship as a reasonable counteroffer (that is overwhelmingly popular) so the public continues blaming Trump.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

It's you who's not looking at the bigger picture. 

We view this fundamentally differently, and I see little point in arguing over it. Our similarities are more important than  our disagreements so I will leave it alone other than to say that I want to believe I'm wrong.

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1 hour ago, Jace, Basilissa said:

I like you. I respect you. I often feel comfortable in deferring to you.

But in this you are wrong. 

This is a game of tomorrows. And you're playing it with yesterday's rules.

DACA is not a winning issue, it's a nothing issue.

And that's horrible. And it's awful and I hate having to type it now but look at the bigger picture! For once, for ONCE, the optics for Democrats are good across the board. There's support for standing up to this tantrum throwing madman. There's resolve against this boondoggle. 

And I know it seems so straightforward. It seems perfectly logical to make a deal here. Everyone wants it, look at the polls right? 

But the polls are too overwhelming. I have tears in my eyes right now thinking about all those people, and how we should be able to help them. How it looks like we can help them. But we can't right now. The stakes are too big, they're fucking everything. 84 per cent. That's the last poll I could find. 84 per cent of Americans think DACA kids should be taken care of. And that's too much.

There's no more political weight to draw on from DACA, it's tapped out. 

I know it looks counterintuitive, but a DACA resolution is so overwhelmingly popular that it means nothing. 84 per cent. 84 per cent of people wanted a solution. And nothing happened. Not only did nothing happen, the public turned on Democrats when they stood up for it. 16 per cent of America got to dictate their insanity on the rest of us because they tied DACA to putting 'real' Americans out of work. 

And you think we can just let them do it again?

These people need to be made whole, affirmed in their paths to citizenship. Because it is morally the right thing to do. But it's not going to be the political victory you're imagining. There's too much broad support. The Republicans will swoop in and siphon idiot centrists who think reasonable heads prevailed. At this point saying you support DACA is no different than saying you 'Support the Troops'. It's just words. Checking a box on the societal immunization card.

 

Sorry, but this is insane. If Dems can extract the concession of a pathway to citizenship for 1.8 million people for $5 billion in wall funding, then it's an absolute win for Dems, considering that Dems were offering $25 billion for the same thing last year.  Trump's base will be furious for capitulating on something that they wouldn't accept 5x that amount last year. 

However, if Trump just offers a temporary 3 year extension and nothing else, then Dems should tell him to sit and spin, because that's basically something that is already going on. 

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Gotta say, I'm quite surprised Trump even went along with this.  Other than inaction, Trump had basically two options - declare an emergency or offer the Dems an opening offer for a compromise.  The latter would be the traditional move for past presidents in such a position, the former is the quintessential Trumpian move.  I did not think he'd blink and take the carrot over the stick approach.

Of course, with Democrats likely to reject the proposal, this probably will only harden Trump's position, and he'll use the rejected offer as an excuse that declaring an emergency is his only option.

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I was at first more with Jace's position, but if (and it's a big if) there was a big concession on DACA I am salivating both in the sense that I think it's the right thing to do and what Trump's overlords like Coulter and Ingraham and Limbaugh would do with it.  It seriously might end Trump's presidency.  

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12 hours ago, karaddin said:

think this is a very reasonable consideration given how badly the job aged Clinton, Bush2 and Obama.

Don't forget the visibly aging Reagan who was already old -- and ended his regimes while having alzheimer's.

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Every time republicans have bent toward cooperating on immigration and the undocumented the right wing extremists have whipped the entire party into a frenzy against that cooperation, and then those republicans willing to fix it clamped up tighter than McConnell’s sphincter. Just because trump is offering it won’t change that.

and since this is a McConnell deal, let’s ask the senator from Maine how well accepting one of his deals for a future promise of passing something works out.

democrats are going to agree, the Wall will get its money the government will reopen and then exactly and utterly nothing will happen on anything McConnell is supposed to do for his part of the bargain.

 

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2 hours ago, A Horse Named Stranger said:

As @Mindwalker pointed out, mine was a lazy reference to Bert Brecht's Three Penny Opera.

There are several versions on youtube.

I'll just leave two here Ella Fitzgerald and my personal favorite Frank Sinatra

I know, there's also one from Louis Armstrong, but that one is just not my cup of tea.

How dare you leave out Bobby Darin's version?????????

 

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23 minutes ago, lokisnow said:

democrats are going to agree, the Wall will get its money the government will reopen and then exactly and utterly nothing will happen on anything McConnell is supposed to do for his part of the bargain.

Uh, someone should tell this to Nancy Pelosi:

Quote

“Democrats were hopeful that the President was finally willing to re-open government and proceed with a much-need discussion to protect the border. Unfortunately, initial reports make clear that his proposal is a compilation of several previously rejected initiatives, each of which is unacceptable and in total, do not represent a good faith effort to restore certainty to people’s lives,” she said in a statement.

“It is unlikely that any one of these provisions alone would pass the House, and taken together, they are a non-starter.”

 

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On BBC Newshour, a Dem whose name I didn't catch, just said, this so-called deal is no deal because it is no deal, as it leaves everybody where they were already were, particularly the DACA people,  is as insulting, disgusting and immoral as it can possibly be.  It was a woman, but not Pelosi. She also said that the Dems are finished with him and his shut-down and are going to vote funds to re-open big parts of the government.

Favorite sign from the Women's March, which was originally seen at another demo in Austin last year, in Spanish; I know because amiga L sent me a photo she took of it back then: 

Quote

"Menstruation blood is the only blood not born from violence but it is the blood that disgusts you most." 

 

Edited by Zorral

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The Freedom Kids are back I guess.

Quote

 

A diocese in Kentucky has apologized after videos emerged showing students from an all-male Catholic high school mocking Native Americans outside the Lincoln Memorial after a rally in Washington.

The Indigenous Peoples March in Washington on Friday coincided with the March for Life, which drew thousands of anti-abortion protesters, including a group from Covington Catholic High School in Park Hills.


Videos circulating online show a youth staring at and standing extremely close to Nathan Phillips, an elderly Native American man singing and playing a drum.

Other students, some wearing Covington clothing and many wearing red "Make America Great Again" hats and sweatshirts, surrounded them, laughing and jeering.

 

Diocese apologizes after students mock Native American at D.C. rally

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/19/students-mock-native-americans-investigation-1116055

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Those were Trump loving Christian students, wearing MAGA hats, that were disrespecting that Native American Veteran.

America is upside down, this just cannot continue to stand, the cradle must fall soon.

  “This is Trump’s America,” wrote actress and activist Alyssa Milano. “And it brought me to tears. What are we teaching our young people? Why is this ok? How is this ok? Please help me understand. Because right now I feel like my heart is living outside of my body.” 

Edited by DireWolfSpirit

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47 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Those were Trump loving Christian students, wearing MAGA hats, that were disrespecting that Native American Veteran.

America is upside down, this just cannot continue to stand, the cradle must fall soon.

  “This is Trump’s America,” wrote actress and activist Alyssa Milano. “And it brought me to tears. What are we teaching our young people? Why is this ok? How is this ok? Please help me understand. Because right now I feel like my heart is living outside of my body.” 

She is so good at finding her lens!

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1 hour ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Those were Trump loving Christian students, wearing MAGA hats, that were disrespecting that Native American Veteran.

America is upside down, this just cannot continue to stand, the cradle must fall soon.

  “This is Trump’s America,” wrote actress and activist Alyssa Milano. “And it brought me to tears. What are we teaching our young people? Why is this ok? How is this ok? Please help me understand. Because right now I feel like my heart is living outside of my body.” 

Powerful video of Nathan Phillips, the Native American man being harassed by that snot-nosed punk, talking about the event. 

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