Secrets best left buried (Fire & Blood)

[The Commentator]

What buried secret was uncovered in Valyria?  I seem to recall a similar theme in the Lord of the Rings.  The dwarf miners dug too deep in the earth and released an ancient creature.  Might the Valyrians have made the same mistake?  Is this George Martin speaking out against uncontrolled greed?

Barth's theory is sound.  Balerion took Aerea back to his "childhood" home.  The Black Dread was probably homesick for the place where he was born.  Other creatures of fire now inhabit the peninsula.  The pair tangle with one or more such creatures.  It sounds heartless but Aerea got her punishment for stealing a dragon.  Maybe the same fate is waiting for future dragon thieves.

Euron says he visited Valyria.  Yet he wasn't struck with the same illness.  Lucky or lying?  It's better if he's lying.  It is theoretically possible that his ship is carrying infected crew members.  

 

 

[Aline de Gavrillac]

From IdeasOfIceFire

 

[Ser Leftwich]

Nothing specific needs to have been down there. It is GRRM's version of Atlantis: an allegory about the hubris of nations.

[Faera]

17 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Euron says he visited Valyria.  Yet he wasn't struck with the same illness.  Lucky or lying?  It's better if he's lying.  It is theoretically possible that his ship is carrying infected crew members.  

 

It is a reasonable assumption to say that Euron simply hasn't been to Valyria. Even characters in the books seem fairly sceptical. 

A smile played across Euron's blue lips. "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. I have taken the Silence on longer voyages than this, and ones far more hazardous. Have you forgotten? I have sailed the Smoking Sea and seen Valyria."
Every man there knew that the Doom still ruled Valyria. The very sea there boiled and smoked, and the land was overrun with demons. It was said that any sailor who so much as glimpsed the fiery mountains of Valyria rising above the waves would soon die a dreadful death, yet the Crow's Eye had been there, and returned.
"Have you?" the Reader asked, so softly.

I personally would like it to be true and that Euron's various dabbling in the dark arts has sort of made "at one" with the Smoking Sea and see him as this sort of dark messiah figure because he truly is one of the few men in the series who I few as genuinely irredeemably evil yet still be compelling enough of a character to want to know what he does next. However, I think it all likelihood his dragonhorn came from somewhere else.

[Seaserpent]

18 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

What buried secret was uncovered in Valyria?  I seem to recall a similar theme in the Lord of the Rings.  The dwarf miners dug too deep in the earth and released an ancient creature.  Might the Valyrians have made the same mistake?  Is this George Martin speaking out against uncontrolled greed?

Barth's theory is sound.  Balerion took Aerea back to his "childhood" home.  The Black Dread was probably homesick for the place where he was born.  Other creatures of fire now inhabit the peninsula.  The pair tangle with one or more such creatures.  It sounds heartless but Aerea got her punishment for stealing a dragon.  Maybe the same fate is waiting for future dragon thieves.

Euron says he visited Valyria.  Yet he wasn't struck with the same illness.  Lucky or lying?  It's better if he's lying.  It is theoretically possible that his ship is carrying infected crew members.  

 

 

Yes and also in the show Drogon went without Dany's approval with her to the dothraki sea, so for me its clear that a Dragon makes his long journey back to their own birthground.

Difficult to think of any secret what would have been under the ground and if this secret was the cause of the doom.

Maybe its not the dragon Horn that Euron took from Valyria, but the Kraken Horn from Claw Isle. Its told many time that the Celtigars have blood from old Valyria and maybe that blood could let them claim the Horn in the first place. The horn that was blew in the kingsmoot could be that one and Euron could have just stolen it from Claw Isle and now going to use it in the Reach. The Valyrian inscription is no mystery when it belongs to house Celtigar. 

If Euron went indeed to Valyria there is no way all his crew survived, but we will not know of that because they had their tongue cut off.

 

[The Commentator]

So this is where my topic went.  The admin or admins moved my topic to this section.  Oh well.  It's fine.  

[The Commentator]

4 hours ago, Faera said:

It is a reasonable assumption to say that Euron simply hasn't been to Valyria. Even characters in the books seem fairly sceptical. 

A smile played across Euron's blue lips. "I am the storm, my lord. The first storm, and the last. I have taken the Silence on longer voyages than this, and ones far more hazardous. Have you forgotten? I have sailed the Smoking Sea and seen Valyria."
Every man there knew that the Doom still ruled Valyria. The very sea there boiled and smoked, and the land was overrun with demons. It was said that any sailor who so much as glimpsed the fiery mountains of Valyria rising above the waves would soon die a dreadful death, yet the Crow's Eye had been there, and returned.
"Have you?" the Reader asked, so softly.

I personally would like it to be true and that Euron's various dabbling in the dark arts has sort of made "at one" with the Smoking Sea and see him as this sort of dark messiah figure because he truly is one of the few men in the series who I few as genuinely irredeemably evil yet still be compelling enough of a character to want to know what he does next. However, I think it all likelihood his dragonhorn came from somewhere else.

His dragon horn and his armor.  He could have plundered the owner of the armor.   Found it in a pawn shop where the proprietor is quite ignorant of what he had.  

[The Commentator]

3 hours ago, Seaserpent said:

Yes and also in the show Drogon went without Dany's approval with her to the dothraki sea, so for me its clear that a Dragon makes his long journey back to their own birthground.

Difficult to think of any secret what would have been under the ground and if this secret was the cause of the doom.

Maybe its not the dragon Horn that Euron took from Valyria, but the Kraken Horn from Claw Isle. Its told many time that the Celtigars have blood from old Valyria and maybe that blood could let them claim the Horn in the first place. The horn that was blew in the kingsmoot could be that one and Euron could have just stolen it from Claw Isle and now going to use it in the Reach. The Valyrian inscription is no mystery when it belongs to house Celtigar. 

If Euron went indeed to Valyria there is no way all his crew survived, but we will not know of that because they had their tongue cut off.

 

Drogon was rescuing Dany and took her to a place of his safety.  Mind you, safety by his standards.  Drogo's spirit would know where to take her.  Drogon was protecting Dany from danger.  To say in Meereen could have been more dangerous for her.  Back to the Dothraki in order to fulfill her destiny and unite the khalasars into one.  Balerion decided to take a vacation and cared not what happened to Aerea.  

[Leo of House Cartel]

26 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Balerion decided to take a vacation and cared not what happened to Aerea.  

I wonder what the theorised "Valyrian Homing Signal" could have been about.

Consider AFOIAF tells us that the majority of dragon riders were in Valyria during the Doom, one has to wonder why they were all congregated in the motherland at the same time, and if perhaps their dragons were drawn to a "signal", like Balerion.

 

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I also think that Septon Barth's theory is correct, but found it strange that neither Balerion nor Aerea were sighted at any time.  As great as the "Black Dread" was, he would have had to stop somewhere along the way.  I was also thinking that Aerea must have drank tainted (unboiled) water and became infected with Alien-style tapeworms.   

[Lord Varys]

I don't buy Barth's assessment on Aerea-Balerion completely. They assume Aerea would have wanted to go to KL or Oldtown or Fair Isle, but we have no evidence for that. Instead we have evidence to the contrary in the fact that Aerea and Alysanne's last interaction causes a quarrel between Aerea and Rhaena and also Aerea and Alysanne. There is no reason to believe she wanted to go back to court after that.

Gyldayn subtly implies Aerea wanted to go 'far, far away' earlier in the text - and if that was true, if she had no real destination when she claimed Balerion aside from getting away from Dragonstone and Westeros, then it makes certainly sense that Balerion would carry her to a place he remembered from his youth.

I doubt Aerea flew intentionally to Valyria, but once she realized that was the place Balerion wanted to go she may have jumped on the chance to explore this place. That was the greatest adventure of all, much greater than anything Elissa Farman could offer her.

Also keep in mind that Aerea flew Balerion back to KL - to KL, not Dragonstone. Why on earth should Balerion have flown her back to KL of his own free will? Why didn't he return to his lair on Dragonstone? The place most familiar to Balerion in Westeros would have been Dragonstone where he spent most his time, not KL.

[HexMachina]

6 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I wonder what the theorised "Valyrian Homing Signal" could have been about.

Consider AFOIAF tells us that the majority of dragon riders were in Valyria during the Doom, one has to wonder why they were all congregated in the motherland at the same time, and if perhaps their dragons were drawn to a "signal", like Balerion.

 

Iirc we are told that the Valyrians didn’t leave their homelands all that much, only really where necessary. So most being in Valyria for the doo, shouldn’t be unusual 

[Seaserpent]

6 hours ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

Drogon was rescuing Dany and took her to a place of his safety.  Mind you, safety by his standards.  Drogo's spirit would know where to take her.  Drogon was protecting Dany from danger.  To say in Meereen could have been more dangerous for her.  Back to the Dothraki in order to fulfill her destiny and unite the khalasars into one.  Balerion decided to take a vacation and cared not what happened to Aerea.  

i agree the moment was a rescue for Dany. But Dany didnt maned to go there but only out of the pit. His safe place was his birthplace yeah

[Leo of House Cartel]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

Iirc we are told that the Valyrians didn’t leave their homelands all that much, only really where necessary. 

A fine point, but certainly a strange trait for a race with such a desire for expansion, and the ability to fly.

It's certainly an odd one, but I think Drogon's flight to the Dothraki Sea, Sunfyre's return to Dragonstone and Balerion's "vacation" with Aerea hint that dragons simply have their own preferred nesting/home grounds - perhaps the Valyrians (being alleged kin to their mounts) shared the same hypothesised urge to return to the place of their birth. If that nest just so happens to be the most powerful city in the world, surrounded by 14 volcanoes, all the better!

28 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

So most being in Valyria for the doom, shouldn’t be unusual 

I was of the opinion that the majority of Freehold associated dragon riders on Planetos descended upon Valyria for the Doom, considering there were only a few dragons who survived. 

I suppose there might not have been that many riders from Volantis, Pentos and the other "Sisters" - one would think that even a low number of them stationed in each City (or even just the threat of retaliation from Valyria itself) would dissuade many a potential uprising. Still, I can't help but find it mighty convenient that most every dragon were there in the one place, just as the Doom was about to kill them all. 

What do you think?

[The Wondering Wolf]

14 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

What do you think?

If you had liked to kill off the nobility of the Roman Republic, you would have been quite successful in it by blowing off Rome itself. You would have missed some guys in the provinces, but Rome was the center of their empire and most guys had no reason to be elsewhere. If a family had decided to move to another area for some time, they would have lost a lot of influence. I think it is the same with Valyria.

[Seaserpent]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Also keep in mind that Aerea flew Balerion back to KL - to KL, not Dragonstone. Why on earth should Balerion have flown her back to KL of his own free will? Why didn't he return to his lair on Dragonstone? The place most familiar to Balerion in Westeros would have been Dragonstone where he spent most his time, not KL.

True telepathicly she wanted to return to KL i guess and balerion felt that, but the trip to valyrion was an adventure, there was no reason for aerea to stop him.

[Faera]

I like the assessment that Aerea just wanted to go far, far away. Perhaps to the Free Cities and beyond.

So, I could certainly see merit in the notion posed by @Lord Varys that she wouldn't have gone to King's Landing but instead would have sought some adventure. If Balerion sensed this then he might have taken her to Valyria because he knows where it is and hasn't been there for a while. He wanted to go, Aerea didn't care where he took her as long as it was far away. The choice for them to return to King's Landing interesting though because I wonder whether Aerea went there because she wanted to seek out her aunt and uncle rather than her mother, or Balerion himself took her somewhere he knew they would find help? Though having said that, presumably he would have seen Dragonstone as a source of help too meaning that it is more likely to have been Aerea's choice.

[broken one]

On 1/17/2019 at 6:42 PM, Widowmaker 811 said:

 

Euron says he visited Valyria.  Yet he wasn't struck with the same illness.  Lucky or lying?  It's better if he's lying.  It is theoretically possible that his ship is carrying infected crew members.  

 

 

Aerea got there by accident, Euron may have had the knowledge on what to look for and where and the assumed competence in dark arts.

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

13 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

If a family had decided to move to another area for some time, they would have lost a lot of influence. I think it is the same with Valyria.

The Roman comparison is very good, and fits nicely with what we know about the Valyrians and their "endless political machinations"

43 minutes ago, Faera said:

The choice for them to return to King's Landing interesting though because I wonder whether Aerea went there because she wanted to seek out her aunt and uncle rather than her mother, or Balerion himself took her somewhere he knew they would find help? Though having said that, presumably he would have seen Dragonstone as a source of help too meaning that it is more likely to have been Aerea's choice.

Yeah, the whole situation seems like GRRM wants us to read about Aerea's adventure and give real thought to the mental bond between a dragon and their rider.

I like the idea of Balerion being sentient enough to recognise that Aerea mould receive better medical assistance in King's Landing. Aerea would have at least have heard about the great minds of Barth and Bennifer, perhaps this familiarity imprinted itself upon the Dread, causing the mighty beast to choose to fly to King's Landing, the place with the best Targ associated healers.

 

[Leo of House Cartel]

"Balerion had wounds aswell. That enormous beast, the Black Dread, the most fearsome dragon ever to soar through the skies of Westeros, returned to King's Landing with half healed scars that no man recalled ever having seen before, and a jagged rent down his left side almost nine feet long, a gaping red wound from which his blood still dripped, hot and smoking." - Barth, F&B

The note that Balerion had both half healed scars, as well as a seemingly recent tear down his side could indicate that the Black Dread and Aerea had encountered several threats along the way.

Assuming the Dread did in fact take the Princess to Valyria/another hellhole, Aerea must surely have been in a state of heightened terror when Balerion's wounds were inflicted. I doubt such fear would rub off on a dragon, but perhaps Aerea felt a need for "extra back up" - thus causing the Dread to eventually take her to King's Landing, the home of Vermithor, Silverwing, the King, Queen and many soldiers.

Eesh, trying to work out the mind of a dragon is sketchy as hell, but pretty fun. 

As to the "jagged rent down his side almost nine feet long", what could have done this to the Black Dread?

Some kind of heavy duty scorpion bolt wouldn't sound like it would plausibly do that much damage to the armoured flank of the "largest creature in the world". A giant Wyvern like "The Shadow", perhaps? Would be cool, but seems unlikely considering Shadow is said to be from the jungles of Sothoryos. - a place with a vastly superior food source.Maybe a Kraken? Aerea begged Elissa Farman to take her away on her voyage - a journey that featured an alleged Kraken attack - so one could see the potential symbolism.

"I pray I shall forget some of the things she whispered through her cracked and bleeding lips. I cannot forget how oft she begged for death". - Barth, F&B.

I wonder what Aerea whispered, as well as what she meant by "I never".