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Renly winning would have been a disaster.

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Name them and name these heirs who successfully claimed their inheritance. 

As was Robert. This whole discussion is down to you claiming Robert can pick his own heir. 

Are you now backtracking and saying 'usurpers' can not? 

In our conversation I have repeatedly stressed successful heir, we will never know if Aerea would have been. 

Though its never mentioned that the 15 year old Jaehaerys picked her.  She was chosen due to the male line having seniority over the female line, as a daughter of a son she was next in line. 

Can you not answer any of the questions? It seems pretty obvious why you continue to deflect rather than back up your claims. 

How does Rogar wanting to marry her off to his brother and then make her queen validate your claim? 

Ah, so only popular kings can pick an heir? Are you now changing your argument? 

Please answer. 

 

Nope, that is not my entire point.

You claimed "Rhaeyna had the  best claim  even over Jaeherys in some eyes."

I've just reread  Prince into King—The Ascension of Jaehaerys I and no one mentions she had the better claim. Westeros is not Dorne, a son comes before a daughter. 

It's a moot point due to you not backing your claim up. 

This we know. In the aftermath of the wedding, Maegor declared Rhaena’s daughter Aerea his lawful heir “until such time as the gods grant me a son,” whilst sending her twin, Rhaella, to Oldtown to be raised as a septa. His nephew Jaehaerys, the rightful heir by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, was expressly disinherited in the same decree.

Rhaena is behind her brother and daughter in the succession line, no one considered her the true heir. 

Remember when you were mistaken about Aerea being months old, you are mistaken again. 

 

About as believable as most of your other claims. 

You just claimed at least five, name them.

Name the times it was successful? 

When a king picked his replacement rather than the line of succession picked it? 

It's a little odd that you are refusing to answer and back up the claims you made up. 

 

Not according to GRRM

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Kings

Look at the Targaryen succession page in Fire and Blood, she is left out.  Look at the contents page of a World of Ice and Fire, every ruler has their own chapter, Rhaenyera does not. 

 

GRRM himself does not consider her a legal queen. She was never recognized as one. One of the major parts of the series is Dany becoming the first female ruler of Westeros.

But not recognized as Queen. 

How is it laughable, Westeros recognizes Aegon II as a monarch, they don't see Rhaenyera as one

You keep defining things as if the histories of Westeroes are concrete and agreed upon by all, and they arent.  You also keep saying GRRM himself when that isnt true either. All the histories are written by his characters,and he says his characters are wrong about many things.  

Even fire and blood shows Aegon 2 didnt actually name Aegon 3 his heir. The blacks were about to take the city, Aegon 2 was killed and Aegon 3 placed on the throne as Rhaeynra's heir in the view of the Blacks.  The Blacks do not have sway in the histories of Westeros as the centers of knowledge in the country are in Old Town.

 

as for the one question you keep asking me to answer, when did I ever propose that I was arguing that in the first place ? IM not sure what exactly you are trying to attribute that to me. 

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10 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

You claimed "Rhaeyna had the  best claim  even over Jaeherys in some eyes."

I've just reread  Prince into King—The Ascension of Jaehaerys I and no one mentions she had the better claim. Westeros is not Dorne, a son comes before a daughter. 

It's a moot point due to you not backing your claim up. 

This we know. In the aftermath of the wedding, Maegor declared Rhaena’s daughter Aerea his lawful heir “until such time as the gods grant me a son,” whilst sending her twin, Rhaella, to Oldtown to be raised as a septa. His nephew Jaehaerys, the rightful heir by all the laws of the Seven Kingdoms, was expressly disinherited in the same decree.

Rhaena is behind her brother and daughter in the succession line, no one considered her the true heir. 

 

Some suggested that Rhaena herself might have the strongest claim to the crown, as the firstborn child of King Aenys and Queen Alyssa. There were even some who whispered that it was Queen Rhaena who had somehow contrived to free the realm from Maegor the Cruel, though by what means she might have arranged his death after fleeing King’s Landing on her dragon, Dreamfyre, has never been successfully established. Her sex told against her, however.”

It was less concrete than it should have been, but the combo of Jaehaerys putting together a coalition, being a dragon rider, and Rogar, then the hand, was a sexist sumbitch. 

“This is not Dorne,” Lord Rogar Baratheon said when the notion was put to him, “and Rhaena is not Nymeria.”

But to say it wasn't considered by some to be true would be incorrect, though we don't know who those people are.

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2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Some suggested that Rhaena herself might have the strongest claim to the crown, as the firstborn child of King Aenys and Queen Alyssa. There were even some who whispered that it was Queen Rhaena who had somehow contrived to free the realm from Maegor the Cruel, though by what means she might have arranged his death after fleeing King’s Landing on her dragon, Dreamfyre, has never been successfully established. Her sex told against her, however.”

It was less concrete than it should have been, but the combo of Jaehaerys putting together a coalition, being a dragon rider, and Rogar, then the hand, was a sexist sumbitch. 

“This is not Dorne,” Lord Rogar Baratheon said when the notion was put to him, “and Rhaena is not Nymeria.”

But to say it wasn't considered by some to be true would be incorrect, though we don't know who those people are.

 

Fuck it, you win,  dsjj251 is clearly correct on all the points he made. Since I'm the only one you've disagreed with it s clear you are backing up all his claims. 

 

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

I doubt Renly would have been the father of the kids Margeary would have birthed. 

 

I disagree and so does Renly:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Catelyn III

"Oh, I expect I'll get a son on her within the year.

 

The assumption is that Renly was gay but that doesn't mean he couldn't father children.  Gay men have fathered children throughout history.

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3 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

Fuck it, you win,  dsjj251 is clearly correct on all the points he made. Since I'm the only one you've disagreed with it s clear you are backing up all his claims. 

 

Dude chill, all these debates are in good fun. But you have been wrong alot, either out right or because you were trying to nitpick and claim the books didn't have those exact words. 

 

Don't get frustrated, but also, don't go looking for an argument for the sake of arguing . 

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35 minutes ago, White Ravens said:

 

I disagree and so does Renly:

 

The assumption is that Renly was gay but that doesn't mean he couldn't father children.  Gay men have fathered children throughout history.

true but I doubt he cared for it. 

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4 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Fuck it, you win,  dsjj251 is clearly correct on all the points he made. Since I'm the only one you've disagreed with it s clear you are backing up all his claims. 

 

Put the bottle down and leave the revolver in the safe. I don’t agree with everything he said.

Its only paranoia if they aren’t out to get you, but in this case it is paranoia.

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4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Put the bottle down and leave the revolver in the safe. I don’t agree with everything he said.

Its only paranoia if they aren’t out to get you, but in this case it is paranoia.

Dude I'm grateful. 6 days of arguing gets to stop because someone else finally weighed in. I'm happy to go with the consensus on this one rather than go on and on. 

Since no one else had a problem with what he said then he wins the discussion.

  • Robert can make whoever he wants his heir
  • Rhaena had a better claim than Jaehaerys
  • Rhaenyra is officially regarded as a monarch in Westeros

I concede on all points.

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7 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Dude I'm grateful. 6 days of arguing gets to stop because someone else finally weighed in. I'm happy to go with the consensus on this one rather than go on and on. 

Since no one else had a problem with what he said then he wins the discussion.

  • Robert can make whoever he wants his heir
  • Rhaena had a better claim than Jaehaerys
  • Rhaenyra is officially regarded as a monarch in Westeros

I concede on all points.

That's a very long way to type out, "I can't believe someone quoted text I didn't see when I re-read it." Man it's an open question. Only #1 is really up for debate.

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1 hour ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

That's a very long way to type out, "I can't believe someone quoted text I didn't see when I re-read it." Man it's an open question. Only #1 is really up for debate.

Sorry, I don't follow. 

  • Robert can make whoever he wants his heir

 

Is open to debate but

  • Rhaena had a better claim than Jaehaerys
  • Rhaenyra is officially regarded as a monarch in Westeros

 

These two are true?

 

Just so we can bury the discussion. 

 

edit; last  question, given Robert's feelings over Joffrey why does he not proclaim another heir?

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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15 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Because you didn't read what I wrote. I didn't address 2/3 of the three points. I only addressed your assertion that Rhaena being the favored successor wasn't in FAB. 

Sorry, genuine question what are your thoughts on the matter

  •  If Robert can make whoever he wants his heir why did he not choose this option, considering his feelings on Joffrey? 

 

  • Did Rhaena had a better claim than Jaehaerys?

 

  • Rhaenyra is absent from GRRM's list of monarchs in both Fire & Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. I, likely mistakenly, assumed that Westeros does not consider her a true ruler. What is your take on the situation? 

 

Thanks for your time.

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27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Sorry, genuine question what are your thoughts on the matter

  •  If Robert can make whoever he wants his heir why did he not choose this option, considering his feelings on Joffrey? 

I have no thoughts on this

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  • Did Rhaena had a better claim than Jaehaerys?

 

Theoretically, maybe. Practically, no for the reasons I mentioned - Jaehaerys and his coalition, Vermithor, his hand being sexist/traditional, seized the Red Keep

Rhaena was older and had a similar sized dragon, but she had no one to back her claim and she hated KL. 

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:
  • Rhaenyra is absent from GRRM's list of monarchs in both Fire & Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. I, likely mistakenly, assumed that Westeros does not consider her a true ruler. What is your take on the situation? 

I have no thoughts on this 

27 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Thanks for your time.

 

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8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I have no thoughts on this

Fair enough. 

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Theoretically, maybe. Practically, no for the reasons I mentioned - Jaehaerys and his coalition, Vermithor, his hand being sexist/traditional, seized the Red Keep

Rhaena was older and had a similar sized dragon, but she had no one to back her claim and she hated KL. 

Thanks for clarifying. 

8 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I have no thoughts on this 

 

Fair enough.

 

So your only interest in the debate for the last two pages was about Rhaena and Jaehaerys? 

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2 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Fair enough. 

Thanks for clarifying. 

Fair enough.

So your only interest in the debate for the last two pages was about Rhaena and Jaehaerys? 

When I comment on one specific thing, I don't care about the rest. I usually delete them If I'm not on mobile.

If you see me break out the post into quotes, I respond under each one.

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2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  •  If Robert can make whoever he wants his heir why did he not choose this option, considering his feelings on Joffrey? 

Because Robert was an optimist, during his life he turned enemies into friends, plus he thought an Eddard raising would set him straight.

Its also the lannister logistics, kings before have chosen their heir and bloodshed and defeat await that decision every time. How could Cersei and House Lannister not object to such a declaration?

2 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 

  • Rhaenyra is absent from GRRM's list of monarchs in both Fire & Blood and the World of Ice and Fire. I, likely mistakenly, assumed that Westeros does not consider her a true ruler. What is your take on the situation? 

Both books you mentioned were written by Maesters, theyre the last ones who'd admit that. It could be because back then Hightower was Green, or the hatred that the Reach has for their Dornish neighbors thusly vilifying their traditions, or just classic misogyny as the Citadel remains female free.

But yeah, Stannis (schooled by Cressen) refers to her as a traitor and her brother as the king, but what did Aegon III think about the rightful ruler? Or Dany? If she were to land in Westeros and hear "No womens ever sat the iron throne" she could say yes there has.

Blackfyre supporters like Varys also would disagree with the list in the mentioned books, as he sees Aegon as king not Dany. 

Disinheritances are a long messy thing that Robert wisley avoided, Randyll did it ok by making Sam disavow his claim and take the black therefore making sure Lord Dickon wont have to deal with scheming nephews ( Maester). Tywin did a horrible job, im not sure what his plan even was, I guess not dying. Still, giving him Sansa and the North is an invitation for war over the Rock, he probably thought Tyrion didnt have the courage.

Edited by Hugorfonics

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47 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:
 

Both books you mentioned were written by Maesters, theyre the last ones who'd admit that. It could be because back then Hightower was Green, or the hatred that the Reach has for their Dornish neighbors thusly vilifying their traditions, or just classic misogyny as the Citadel remains female free.

It's not just the books, its GRRM himself. More than a decade before the world book was published GRRM described all the Targaryen monarchs

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Kings

Rhaenyra is not mentioned. 

Also the appendices don't appear to be written by the Maesters and A Game of Thrones lists the Targaryen succession; https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Appendix#The_Last_Targaryens

Rhaenyra is not mentioned. 

Legally she is not considered a monarch;  “Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed.

I agree with your points about the Citadel and High Septon being sexist institutions, but I don't really see how that changes the point, currently in the eyes of Westeros she was never a legal Queen. No king. as far as we know, has reversed Aegon II's decree.  She's pretty much the Westerosi version of Matilda of England. 

Quote

Its also the lannister logistics, kings before have chosen their heir and bloodshed and defeat await that decision every time. How could Cersei and House Lannister not object to such a declaration?

 

Exactly my point. Its one thing naming an heir but Westeros history has shown its never successful, it only leads to conflict. That is why Grand Councils have more sway than monarchs when it comes to picking unconventional heirs. 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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38 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

It's not just the books, its GRRM himself. More than a decade before the world book was published GRRM described all the Targaryen monarchs

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Targaryen_Kings

Rhaenyra is not mentioned. 

But Viserys III is. Its all a matter of perspective

39 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Also the appendices don't appear to be written by the Maesters and A Game of Thrones lists the Targaryen succession; https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Appendix#The_Last_Targaryens

Rhaenyra is not mentioned. 

Im in a discussion now about the appendix in affc (on hiatus as im looking for my physical copy) its very confusing. But my basic stance is fuck the appendix, which Ill double down for on agot appendix; As Joffrey Tommen and Myrcella are listed as Roberts children not Jaimes. 

44 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Legally she is not considered a monarch;  “Rhaenyra was never a queen,” the king declared, insisting that henceforth, in all chronicles and court records, his half sister be referred to only as “princess,” the title of queen being reserved only for his mother Alicent and his late wife and sister Helaena, the “true queens.” And so it was decreed.

I agree with your points about the Citadel and High Septon being sexist institutions, but I don't really see how that changes the point, currently in the eyes of Westeros she was never a legal Queen. No king. as far as we know, has reversed Aegon II's decree.  She's pretty much the Westerosi version of Matilda of England. 

But Im sure that after the Blackfyre rebellion the annuls were changed as well to erase any legitimacy from the bastards, thats not stopping the Blackfyres from continuing more rebellions. 

Obviously Blackfyres have less claim then Aegon III or Henry II because their mothers "usurper" named them heir. So it doesn't really matter what maesters, historians or lawyers say, as long as them and their kids are king.

Also Matilda (and Viserys and Dany) never had a coronation (which I dont get because she was in London for a while, but whatever) where as Rhaenyra did.

56 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Exactly my point. Its one thing naming an heir but Westeros history has shown its never successful, it only leads to conflict. That is why Grand Councils have more sway than monarchs when it comes to picking unconventional heirs. 

Word. But just because somethings never been done doesnt strike it as impossible, after all the king can do whatever the hell he wants

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1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Viserys III is. Its all a matter of perspective

In legal terms its not, its quite clear cut. 

I could argue that from my perspective I'm the king of England, that is not going to make it so.

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Im in a discussion now about the appendix in affc (on hiatus as im looking for my physical copy) its very confusing. But my basic stance is fuck the appendix, which Ill double down for on agot appendix; As Joffrey Tommen and Myrcella are listed as Roberts children not Jaimes. 

The appendix is a state of play of how things start at the beginning of the books,  legally they are regarded as Robert's children. 

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

But Im sure that after the Blackfyre rebellion the annuls were changed as well to erase any legitimacy from the bastards, thats not stopping the Blackfyres from continuing more rebellions. 

Anyone can start a rebellion, a legal claim to the throne is not needed to do so.  

Can I ask how do you know the Blackfyres are related to the Targaryens? You don't trust the Maesters and the written history of Westeros but the Maesters are the only reason we know of the Blackfyre. 

Same goes for Rhaenyra being made heir by her father. We only have the Maesters written account that happened, we only have the Maesters written account that she thought a rebellion to be made Queen.

You are under the assumption that nothing the Maesters said can be trusted, and that is your prerogative, but how can you argue about any event that occured 100 before the events of this series given all that information comes from the Maesters. 

 

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Obviously Blackfyres have less claim then Aegon III or Henry II because their mothers "usurper" named them heir. So it doesn't really matter what maesters, historians or lawyers say, as long as them and their kids are king.

Sure, but only once they legally become monarch, not before. 

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Also Matilda (and Viserys and Dany) never had a coronation (which I dont get because she was in London for a while, but whatever) where as Rhaenyra did.

We only have the Maesters word that she was crowned. How can you argue that the Maesters can't be trusted yet take that as gospel? 

1 minute ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word. But just because somethings never been done doesnt strike it as impossible, after all the king can do whatever the hell he wants

Exactly, as I said in my first response on the subject; Kings choosing their heirs is the exception rather than the rule. 

 

 

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