Poll: Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?

[Platypus Rex]

24 against to 8 for, so far.  

Thank you to everyone who voted.

[Platypus Rex]

2 hours ago, BalerionTheCat said:

"And I don't see the value of both Jojen's blood and hiding the fact."

Maybe Bran would not do it otherwise.  Maybe the discovery will cause him to change course, like the "we've been eating a talking stag" moment from The Silver Chair.

"Is there lemon trees in Braavos?
Will there be a Cleganebowl?"

Good ideas.  Though I think I would reframe the questions.

[Platypus Rex]

4 hours ago, Back door hodor said:

Idea for next poll: 

Is Tysha the sailors wife?

Thanks.  

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Maybe the discovery will cause him to change course, like the "we've been eating a talking stag" moment from The Silver Chair.

As much as I dislike being that person --- C. S. Lewis was not wrapped verra tight. I mean I gotta consider his religious views and the era in which he wrote.

[Platypus Rex]

10 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

As much as I dislike being that person --- C. L. Lewis was not wrapped verra tight. I mean I gotta consider his religious views and the era in which he wrote.

Right.  Back in the 1950s, there were still some intolerant religious bigots who disapproved of eating people.  We've come a long way since then.  I'm sure GRRM is 100% in favor of eating people.

(Disclaimer:  The above is irony, folks.  I actually think that it is remotely possible that GRRM agrees with CS Lewis that eating people is NOT a sign of good character; and that this applies to Bloodraven and his entourage, just as it applied to the Gentle Giants of Harfang).

[Clegane'sPup]

2 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

Right.  Back in the 1950s, there were still some intolerant religious bigots who disapproved of eating people.  We've come a long way since then.  I'm sure GRRM is 100% in favor of eating people.

(Disclaimer:  The above is irony, folks).

Depends on where you are going with this. As religion goes I have read lewis' Four Loves and screwtape letters and mere christianity.

 

[Platypus Rex]

2 minutes ago, Clegane'sPup said:

Depends on where you are going with this. 

I wasn't planning to take it beyond the discussion of eating people and/ or human sacrifice.

[Clegane'sPup]

6 minutes ago, Platypus Rex said:

I wasn't planning to take it beyond the discussion of eating people and/ or human sacrifice.

Well it has nothing to do with the goof ball idea of Jojen paste and I canna do nuttin' about what individuals think, feel or believe happened in fictional story.

You ass pulled a Lewis book as a reference. But, hey maybe I am mis-remembering.

Let's go a bit further back in time it it suits anyone to spend the time reading.

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34520/34520-pdf.pdf

No to Jojen paste.

 

 

 

[Clegane'sPup]

2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

there were still some intolerant religious bigots

and there are some young bigots flapping round

best beware of freedom of speech ---- twitter bugs be dangerous.

Language changes.

 

[acwill07]

I really don't know how anyone could vote no.  The answer is yes.  Why else would Jojen be missing so much in the chapter when the others are around?  Jojen knew he was going to die, and that's why he became so sullen and depressed and according to Meera "wouldn't even fight his fate."  

Yes, Jojen is dead and Bran ate a bit of him.  I suspect Jojen knew all along that this was how he would go.  

[Gertrude]

I've been thinking a little bit about my reply to another poster re: sacrifice. We used the examples of the Old Gods and the Lord of Light - both of which have clear cases of human sacrifice. People have strong feelings about that kind of cut-and-dried sacrifice. I think maybe a different example should be looking at war. 

Robb sacrificed 2000 men to misdirect Tywin to get a win at the Battle of Whispering Woods. Does it make a difference if the sacrifice is willing? Soldiers know that they could die at any time, or be asked to take extraordinary risks that amount to suicide missions. Is Robb evil for asking his men to do that? Is any battle commander evil for doing that? I say no, because the soldiers are sacrificing their life for what they believe in, for a greater good, to right a wrong, etc. So why would a sacrifice of a willing Jojen cross that line? Now if it turns out that unwilling sacrifices were made, then it changes my calculations again. 

Mel used sacrifices, but (correct me if I'm wrong) only people who were condemned to death anyway (so far). I view this differently because the people sacrificed were killed for something they didn't believe in. They furthered a cause not their own against their will and got a death far more painful than otherwise merrited. That's the problem I have with Mel - that she uses people who don't share the same goals and beliefs as her. I also don't care for the fact that Bloodraven is shielding Bran from the truth (assuming Jojen paste is accurate). He's lying and manipulating to get what he wants instead of teaching and persuading. He's a level above Mel, but a level below Robb.

[Megorova]

On 1/21/2019 at 9:40 PM, Faera said:

the need for the purpose in showing this being them butchering and feeding Bran's friends to him him is overkill. Just feels like gore for gore's sake. 

Exactly It's all about blood. Jojen has green dreams, so his blood is special, thus it's an ideal sacrifice, to give it to the weirwood, furthermore, to use it as an ingredient for a seedpaste, that will help Bran to fully awake his abilities. Probably, for a weirwood tree to start growing from the inside of someone's body, it is not enought for that peson to just eat some of weirwood seeds, so there should be an additional catalyst mixed into it, such as blood.

On 1/21/2019 at 10:31 PM, White Ravens said:

If at least one of them is still alive they can still provide more information about the tourney at Harrenhall, not to mention information about Howland Reed, Howland's Moving Castle and Crannogmen in general. 

Howland Reed himself may provide more information about Howland Reed, and all those other things you mentioned. Furthermore, if Bran did merged with the Weirwood Network, then he himself can look at Harrenhal's tournament, with his own eyes, thru eyes of the Weirwood in the past. So there's no more need for any "intermediaries". Now Bran knows everything, and thus, doesn't need anyone to provide him with information.

[Impbread]

6 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Exactly It's all about blood. Jojen has green dreams, so his blood is special, thus it's an ideal sacrifice, to give it to the weirwood, furthermore, to use it as an ingredient for a seedpaste, that will help Bran to fully awake his abilities. Probably, for a weirwood tree to start growing from the inside of someone's body, it is not enought for that peson to just eat some of weirwood seeds, so there should be an additional catalyst mixed into it, such as blood.

I have a question. Do they sacrifice to make shad of the evening? Those trees are the closest we have to weirwood in essos. Do those trees get sacrafices?

[Megorova]

3 minutes ago, Impbread said:

I have a question. Do they sacrifice to make shad of the evening? Those trees are the closest we have to weirwood in essos. Do those trees get sacrafices?

The Undying tried to eat Dany. But, probably, not because she is "meat", but because she is "energy". There's a lot of power in the blood of the dragon, but blood of average people, that are not dragonseeds, probably, also has some merit, and could be sacrificed to Gods, given to them as a "feed". The Undying are not dying, so there should be something, that is keeping them alive, even though they are very old, even ancient, so they should have died long ago, but they didn't. Most likely, they already stoped being humans, they don't need to eat or drink. But to stay alive, or un-dead, they need energy. And they can get that energy from other people, from their blood, or from living sacrifices. I think, that whoever is drinking the shade of the evening, in exchange for those visions, is giving away to the Heart of the Undying a bit of his/her own lifeforce. So this exchange of visions for energy may be main "food source" for magic trees and the Undying in Essos. Also, it is fairly likely, that blood is used as an igredient for making the shade of the evening. So it is possible, that some people in Essos are also "feeding" trees with blood, same as it is done in Westeros for the Weirwood. We'll get more info about this topic, after TWOW's release. In one of available chapters, Euron was giving the shade of the evening to his brother, and sacrifising people to Gods, so eventually we will find out, whether those two things (shade and sacrifices) are related to each other or not.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

very very very much yes.

The sobbing Theon heard in the Godswood was not Jeyne. It was Bran mourning Jojen's death.

I'm not sure about the paste. Death Pays For Life, not somewhat improved communication skills.

[Faera]

I used to give credence to the more fringe notion that Jojen was not butchered, bled and mixed into the Paste but instead had been willingly sacrificed (perhaps even by Meera) before the Heart Tree so as to add his knowledge to the network. However I decided against that through to further readings, concluding that Jojen appears to associate his death with home. Besides, I feel that had GRRM intended to kill Jojen off, he would be more direct about it and would have likely left that as the revelation or Jojen physically being killed, at the end of Bran’s last Dance chapter. Killing Jojen off page or in between chapters would be poorly constructed given he has been Bran’s companion since the 2nd book. It shocks the reader but downplays the significance and impact such a death has on “Bran the Boy”.

I would like to add that I still believe Jojen might end his own life, or entrust the duty of killing him to his sister, before a Heart Tree as a how he may eventually die — I just completely disagree on the time and location. I don’t think it will happen in Bloodraven’s cave and I wholeheartedly disagree it already happened at the end of Bran III.

[Tucu]

12 minutes ago, Faera said:

I used to give credence to the more fringe notion that Jojen was not butchered, bled and mixed into the Paste but instead had been willingly sacrificed (perhaps even by Meera) before the Heart Tree so as to add his knowledge to the network. However I decided against that through to further readings, concluding that Jojen appears to associate his death with home. Besides, I feel that had GRRM intended to kill Jojen off, he would be more direct about it and would have likely left that as the revelation or Jojen physically being killed, at the end of Bran’s last Dance chapter. Killing Jojen off page or in between chapters would be poorly constructed given he has been Bran’s companion since the 2nd book. It shocks the reader but downplays the significance and impact such a death has on “Bran the Boy”.

I would like to add that I still believe Jojen might end his own life, or entrust the duty of killing him to his sister, before a Heart Tree as a how he may eventually die — I just completely disagree on the time and location. I don’t think it will happen in Bloodraven’s cave and I wholeheartedly disagree it already happened at the end of Bran III.

GRRM gave us another way to "go home" when Rickon waits for Ned in the crypts:

Quote

Rickon nodded. “You leave him. You leave him be. He’s coming home now, like he promised. He’s coming home.”

 

[Faera]

3 minutes ago, Tucu said:

GRRM gave us another way to "go home" when Rickon waits for Ned in the crypts:

Quote

Rickon nodded. “You leave him. You leave him be. He’s coming home now, like he promised. He’s coming home.”

 

Possible. Except Ned isn't home. 

Either way, I still standby the rest of my post. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Tucu]

21 minutes ago, Faera said:

Possible. Except Ned isn't home. 

Either way, I still standby the rest of my post. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Ned's ghost might actually be home already. From the same chapter:

Quote

Summer began to howl.

Maester Luwin broke off, startled. When Shaggydog bounded to his feet and added his voice to his brother’s, dread clutched at Bran’s heart. “It’s coming,” he whispered, with the certainty of despair. He had known it since last night, he realized, since the crow had led him down into the crypts to say farewell. He had known it, but he had not believed.

 

[Impbread]

2 hours ago, Faera said:

I used to give credence to the more fringe notion that Jojen was not butchered, bled and mixed into the Paste but instead had been willingly sacrificed (perhaps even by Meera) before the Heart Tree so as to add his knowledge to the network. However I decided against that through to further readings, concluding that Jojen appears to associate his death with home. Besides, I feel that had GRRM intended to kill Jojen off, he would be more direct about it and would have likely left that as the revelation or Jojen physically being killed, at the end of Bran’s last Dance chapter. Killing Jojen off page or in between chapters would be poorly constructed given he has been Bran’s companion since the 2nd book. It shocks the reader but downplays the significance and impact such a death has on “Bran the Boy”.

I would like to add that I still believe Jojen might end his own life, or entrust the duty of killing him to his sister, before a Heart Tree as a how he may eventually die — I just completely disagree on the time and location. I don’t think it will happen in Bloodraven’s cave and I wholeheartedly disagree it already happened at the end of Bran III.

This! He has seen his end. He knows its at home or on the way and he wants to go there. That is what Meera is talking about when he says that he will not even fight it.