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Poll: Did Jojen Die Off-Page in DANCE?

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5 hours ago, Ibbison from Ibben said:

I'm not sure about the paste. Death Pays For Life, not somewhat improved communication skills.

But that's exactly what the magic of the wierwoods is, isn't it? It takes a sacrifice to awaken a tree. I suppose you could interpret that as the death of the man for the life of the tree. We could also interpret the life of a man for the life of the Greenseer Bran will become. 

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41 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

But that's exactly what the magic of the wierwoods is, isn't it? It takes a sacrifice to awaken a tree. I suppose you could interpret that as the death of the man for the life of the tree. We could also interpret the life of a man for the life of the Greenseer Bran will become. 

According to Bloodraven, it’s Bran’s blood that makes him a greenseer. The weirwood paste will help him develop his abilities. 

“The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. “What is it?”
“A paste of weirwood seeds.”
Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.”

No on Jojen Paste for me. 

 

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Point taken, but he needs to awaken and strengthen his powers. Jojen paste would give him a new life as a more powerful Greenseer and bonded with the trees. This is a turning point for him. So he will always be a Greenseer, but sacrifice is needed to make him SuperGreenseer. Basically the phrase life pays for death seems to be a shorthand for blood magic. Perhaps it doesn't have to be completely literal. There is room for interpretation.

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On 1/20/2019 at 5:09 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Did Jojen Die Off-Page Prior to the End of Bran's Last Chapter in A Dance With Dragons"?

yes

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"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie."

He wants to go home but he won't even try, because he believes wholly in his greendreams and his greendreams have shown him his death in the caves.

Quote

"He's being brave," said Bran. The only time a man can be brave is when he is afraid, his father had told him once, long ago, on the day they found the direwolf pups in the summer snows. He still remembered.

That's why it is brave of him to stay.

Quote

"He's being stupid," Meera said. "I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came."

Meera was hoping the three-eyed crow could change something about Jojen's fate or that Jojen himself would change after he'd done his "job". But nothing has changed and she's wondering why he came.

Quote

For me, Bran thought. "His greendreams," he said.

"His greendreams." Meera's voice was bitter.

"Hodor," said Hodor.

Meera began to cry.

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6 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

He wants to go home but he won't even try, because he believes wholly in his greendreams and his greendreams have shown him his death in the caves.

This is Martin being his devilish genial self. There are other ways to read that quote you provided. 

For instance, Meera may mean that he wants to go home even though he knows that’s where he’ll die. And she’s upset b/c he won’t even try to fight it; he’s actually embracing (or trying to) what he believes is his unavoidable fate. And I don’t even think he’s right about the greendreams always coming true. 

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41 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is Martin being his devilish genial self. There are other ways to read that quote you provided. 

For instance, Meera may mean that he wants to go home even though he knows that’s where he’ll die. And she’s upset b/c he won’t even try to fight it; he’s actually embracing (or trying to) what he believes is his unavoidable fate. And I don’t even think he’s right about the greendreams always coming true. 

If that were the case it would mean he's planning on going home. The fight would be him going home and Meera trying to fight him out of it because he'd die there. And that is clearly not what is happening. He's shown absolutely no intention of doing that, no preparations, the whole point is he's being inactive, withdrawn and slipping away. And Meera isn't fighting some attempt of his to go home.

That the future is not written and you should try and fight against a horrible or unjust fate is undoubtedly going to end up being the point of the text, in Bran's arc. Jojen's part in it is the example of what not to be, for what not to do, for Bran to learn from. If not for his own, if not for the world's, then for Meera's sake.

It is a theme of Bran's story, that there are two paths one can take when faced with a horrible fate. Accept it stoically, go quietly into the night, or go down fighting, kicking, gnashing, flailing and screaming. One is Jojen, the other is Meera. One is the COTF, the other is man.

Quote

The direwolves will outlast us all, but their time will come as well. In the world that men have made, there is no room for them, or us."

She seemed sad when she said it, and that made Bran sad as well. It was only later that he thought, Men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear a bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill.

 

Edited by chrisdaw

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15 minutes ago, chrisdaw said:

If that were the case it would mean he's planning on going home. The fight would be him going home and Meera trying to fight him out of it because he'd die there. And that is clearly not what is happening. He's shown absolutely no intention of doing that, no preparations, the whole point is he's being inactive, withdrawn and slipping away. And Meera isn't fighting some attempt of his to go home.

I understand that this is your interpretation. I had understood the first time. I was merely pointing out that there are other ways of interpreting the quote, as is the case w/ so many of the mysteries in the novels such as  R+L=J, the PL, Jojen Paste to name a few. 

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1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said:

I understand that this is your interpretation. I had understood the first time. I was merely pointing out that there are other ways of interpreting the quote, as is the case w/ so many of the mysteries in the novels such as  R+L=J, the PL, Jojen Paste to name a few. 

What you quoted of me is pointing out how Jojen's actions and Meera's dialogue and actions do not offer any support but oppose the alternative interpretation.

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3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Meera may mean that he wants to go home even though he knows that’s where he’ll die. And she’s upset b/c he won’t even try to fight it; he’s actually embracing (or trying to) what he believes is his unavoidable fate. And I don’t even think he’s right about the greendreams always coming true. 

I think you're spot-on.  Except that IMO the greendreams do always come true; what fails is Jojen's comprehension of them (rather like Mel's comprehension of her flame visions).

You'd think Jojen would have learned this from ACOK:

Quote

Jojen's mossy eyes were full of pity. "They won't be able to stop him, Bran. I couldn't see why, but I saw the end of it. I saw you and Rickon in your crypts, down in the dark with all the dead kings and their stone wolves."

No, Bran thought. No. "If I went away . . . to Greywater, or to the crow, someplace far where they couldn't find me . . ."

"It will not matter. The dream was green, Bran, and the green dreams do not lie."

Well, yes, his dream was accurate in a literal sense.  But neither Bran nor Rickon is dead, so Jojen's pity was completely misplaced. 

In ADWD, it's self-pity he feels, and it may turn out to be misplaced there too.

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No. Jojen is not dead nor paste.

I believe Jojen and Meera found something they shouldn't have in the cave, and are probably tied up somewhere.

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17 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

He wants to go home but he won't even try, because he believes wholly in his greendreams and his greendreams have shown him his death in the caves

I don't necessarily link Meera's assertion with Jojen wanting to go home with her taking his ashes and bones there.

"He wants to go home," Meera told Bran. "He will not even try and fight his fate. He says the greendreams do not lie. [...] He's being stupid... I'd hoped that when we found your three-eyed crow … now I wonder why we ever came."

To me, the lack of a "but" makes Jojen's home and his fate go hand in hand, rather than against each other. Had the implication been there that he wasn't ever going to go home - or at least start the journey back at some point - I feel like Meera's wording would have been more like, "He wants to go home but he won't even try and fight his fate." Instead it's ambiguous.

Maybe you're right, but maybe I am.

Yes, it is nitpicking but if one is trying to make the argument that Jojen was killed and was in the paste at the end of ADWD, Bran III then it's an important point and I think it would be more clear. Hell, blatant if Jojen had died. Kill him off-page and you lose a key character moment for Bran.

17 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

This is Martin being his devilish genial self. There are other ways to read that quote you provided. 

For instance, Meera may mean that he wants to go home even though he knows that’s where he’ll die. And she’s upset b/c he won’t even try to fight it; he’s actually embracing (or trying to) what he believes is his unavoidable fate. And I don’t even think he’s right about the greendreams always coming true. 

:agree:what she said! 

Truth is, the greendreams always do come true but there's also possible twists. It's why Meera is the one who is ultimately right - he's being stupid.

Edited by Faera

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I'm going to have to vote in the "no" camp on the Jojen paste theory. Mainly because of the reason (stated by others) that it would be much less impactful for his death to be off-page, unless we are going to be shown it in a vision/flashback scene of Bran's in a later chapter (a possibility). Dance needed a few more jolts and starts to the reader as it was, I can't believe GRRM would give up such a crucial and vivid scene to treat us to Wildlings going out into the woods to swear their vows to the NW or Tyrion sitting on a ship for what seemed like forever instead, for example.

 

Then there is this:

Quote

It had a bitter taste, though not so bitter as acorn paste. The first spoonful was the hardest to get down. He almost retched it right back up. The second tasted better. The third was almost sweet. The rest he spooned up eagerly. Why had he thought it was bitter? It tasted of honey, of new fallen snow, of pepper and cinnamon and the last kiss his mother ever gave him.

 

There is definitely something going on with this stuff. Things don't change flavor mid-eat unless there is some kind of magic or serious (brain?) chemistry going on. But at no time does Bran describe the flavor as salty or bloody/coppery (most people know what blood tastes like).

Edited by Three-Fingered Pete
errata

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On 1/22/2019 at 2:21 PM, Back door hodor said:

Idea for next poll: 

Is Tysha the sailors wife?

Yes

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On 1/22/2019 at 4:20 PM, Tucu said:

The last time Bran is with Hodor, Meera and Jojen are not there and their alcove is empty and cold:

So I vote probably.

Ooh! Nice. 

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20 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

According to Bloodraven, it’s Bran’s blood that makes him a greenseer. The weirwood paste will help him develop his abilities. 

“The boy looked at the bowl uncertainly. “What is it?”
“A paste of weirwood seeds.”
Something about the look of it made Bran feel ill. The red veins were only weirwood sap, he supposed, but in the torchlight they looked remarkably like blood. He dipped the spoon into the paste, then hesitated. “Will this make me a greenseer?”
Your blood makes you a greenseer,” said Lord Brynden. “This will help awaken your gifts and wed you to the trees.

No on Jojen Paste for me. 

 

Yes his blood makes him a greenseer...  But see? He needs a little something extra...

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14 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

No. Jojen is not dead nor paste.

I believe Jojen and Meera found something they shouldn't have in the cave, and are probably tied up somewhere.

Yeah, they found Snowy Locks with a bronze sickle and a weirwood bowl carved with a dozen faces. 

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1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Yes his blood makes him a greenseer...  But see? He needs a little something extra...

Indeed he does. A paste of weirwood seeds. After all, he's being wed to the trees. A bowl of Jojen paste might be helpful if he were being wed to Jojen. :P

 

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54 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed he does. A paste of weirwood seeds. After all, he's being wed to the trees. A bowl of Jojen paste might be helpful if he were being wed to Jojen. :P

 

Yep, the red thing is just weirwood sap B).  From The Sacrifice:

Quote

Eight days ago Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It is only sap, she'd told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood.

The mind wants to see red sap, but the eyes see blood. What would Syrio see?

Quote

“Just so. Opening your eyes is all that is needing. The heart lies and the head plays tricks with us, but the eyes see true. Look with your eyes. Hear with your ears. Taste with your mouth. Smell with your nose. Feel with your skin. Then comes the thinking, afterward, and in that way knowing the truth.”

 

Edited by Tucu

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Jojen doesn't even want to try to go home? What could possibly explain that? Maybe it's the wights who are still stationed around the entrance to the cave? Maybe it's the Others? Maybe it's the even colder cold of actual Winter, which has finally arrived, the difficulty of travel, the lack of food, Jojen's general weakness? No convenient transportation since they ate the elk?

Plenty of reasons not to want to leave the caves just yet. And then, there's Bran, who the Reed kids have been guiding and protecting. Just leave Bran there, alone? (Well, with Hodor and his offsite direwolf, but...) Jojen doesn't have to be dead to want to stay. We need to be a little careful about grabbing onto a pet theory and considering no other alternatives! My humble opinion, of course.

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