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About R+L=J and a different point of view

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What if R+L=J wasn’t at all about love or prophecy but a political move?

What if the Starks were behind the Targaryan fall since long before the “southron ambitions”?

 

When the Ghost of high heart meets Arya she says to her:

Quote

“I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . ." She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart. Begone!"

 

Why would she link “wolf” with Summerhall? The smell of dead could be because Arya had already killed a buch of people by then, but “I need none of yours” says to me that it’s more about the family rather that her personally.

 

And then if you think that the tourney of Harrenhal was in fact an excuse to call for a council that intended to remove the king and most likely the Targaryens for good, and put Robert in the throne alongside his Stark wife, then Lyanna’s abducting makes much more sense. Not to mention the presence of the three best kings guards in the tower of joy.

 

Except that because both of them were good looking everyone thought it was about love when it wasn’t.

 

What if Lyanna’s abduction was a move like the one that Cat did with Tyrion? Except that being both of them good looking everyone thought it was about love or lust when it wasn’t.

We think that the Starks are horrible in politics but only because Ned is. But maybe some of them were good, maybe some of them were capable of doing a monstrous thing like the tragedy of Summerhall, just as Tywin was capable of planning the red wedding.

Maybe they were trying to get rid of the Targaryens,  and murdering all off them at the same time appeared like a better choice rather than a long war. If you think about it, before the “southron ambitions” all the other families were marrying already, and most of them at some point had married some Targ, except the Starks. The Starks were isolated; they were the only former kingdom that was acknowledged as “first men”. Not to mention that Cregar Stark had signed a pact with Rhaneyra’s son to side with them in the “dance of dragons” in exchange of a Taragaryen princess. So the Starks wanted to be “in”.

 

So Rhaegar finds out what happened in Sumerhall, and starts plotting.

 

Quote

“Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.

 

 

Just as Doran, his plot takes forever. He needed to be a warrior because he was getting ready for war. Not the war for the dawn as the end of the world, but as the end of his family lineage.

And of course going to War with the Starks is a “song of ice and fire”.

That would explain why he did absolutely nothing when his father murdered Rickard and Brandon, he wanted them dead, he wanted them all dead.

That would also explain why was Lyanna being guarded by the king guards and why Ned had to killed them to get her.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

What if R+L=J wasn’t at all about love or prophecy but a political move?

Then it was an epic failure that resulted in the destruction of the dynasty. 

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hi GAT - i like it -  great explanation.

 

i can think of other supporting factors (aka my own theories) that fit in with your logic.

thanks for the post.

 

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19 hours ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

What if the Starks were behind the Targaryan fall since long before the “southron ambitions”?

The idea that Lord Rickard Stark had "southron ambitions" is based entirely on one lone source:, Barbrey Ryswell Dustin. And even her idea of Rickard's "southron ambitions" says or implies nothing about Rickard wanting to remove the Targaryens from power.

19 hours ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

And then if you think that the tourney of Harrenhal was in fact an excuse to call for a council that intended to remove the king and most likely the Targaryens for good, and put Robert in the throne alongside his Stark wife, then Lyanna’s abducting makes much more sense. Not to mention the presence of the three best kings guards in the tower of joy.

It was Prince Rhaegar, not Rickard Stark, who is claimed to have intended to use the Harrenhal Tourney as a ploy to meet with as many lords as possible to discuss ways and means of dealing with, and possibly deposing, King Aerys:

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent's tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Harrenhal, and everything had gone awry from there. (ADWD: The Kingbreaker)

If this tale be believed, 'twas Prince Rhaegar who urged Lord Walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship's brother Ser Oswell as a gobetween. Rhaegar provided Whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to Harrenhal as possible. The prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal Great Council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, King Aerys II, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication. (TWOIAF: The Fall of the Dragons - The Year of the False Spring)

There is no proof that any party, whether Lord Robert Baratheon himself, or lords like Rickard, wanted or had any plot to remove House Targaryen from power prior to the Harrenhal Tourney, let alone to place Robert in power in their place.

This theory is without textual basis.

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 6:15 PM, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

Why would she link “wolf” with Summerhall? The smell of dead could be because Arya had already killed a buch of people by then, but “I need none of yours” says to me that it’s more about the family rather that her personally.

The Ghost of High Heart does not link "wolf" with Summerhall.  She links Arya with "wolf".  Yes, the smell of death is indeed because Arya is a killer.  "I need none of yours" means "I need none of your grief"; which refers to Arya's grief over her family.  This grief connects to the "blood child" accusation, because of course, Arya's grief is a motivation underlying her murders.  (And perhaps also because the murders only bring more grief).

Bottom line, she does not connect Arya's grief to Summerhall.  She distinguishes them.  She is saying to Arya, I don't need your grief, because I have enough of my own.

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10 hours ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:
23 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Then it was an epic failure that resulted in the destruction of the dynasty

Yes, that's my point.

What is your point?

8 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

This theory is without textual basis.

This

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4 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

The Ghost of High Heart does not link "wolf" with Summerhall.  She links Arya with "wolf".  Yes, the smell of death is indeed because Arya is a killer.  "I need none of yours" means "I need none of your grief"; which refers to Arya's grief over her family.  This grief connects to the "blood child" accusation, because of course, Arya's grief is a motivation underlying her murders.  (And perhaps also because the murders only bring more grief).

Bottom line, she does not connect Arya's grief to Summerhall.  She distinguishes them.  She is saying to Arya, I don't need your grief, because I have enough of my own.

This is exactly what I was going to post.  The OP is misinterpreting the text.  The Ghost of High Heart, who has a touch of greenseer in her, can tell that Arya is going to become an assassin.  The GOHH was also obviously present at Summerhall the day that Aegon V made the mistake of trying to hatch dragons.

In any case, she isn't linking Arya with Summerhall.  

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11 hours ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

Yes, that's my point.

It took a lot of text to make it.....

53 minutes ago, the Other Wolf said:

What is your point?

This

Bingo 

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Actually I don't trust very much everything Barbrey Dustin says, but I started thinking about the fact that Northeners used to marry amongst themselves or at least to house Blackwood and Royce (you see it in the family tree of house stark).

I think that maybe Rickard just wanted to make alliances just in case something happened and I believe he did well because the king was going mad and burned people alive and remember what happened to house Duskendale...  But I don't think he was starting a rebellion, even because Northeners are not used to get involved in southron affairs.

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3 hours ago, GOLDENSTORMWOLF said:

Interesting premise, so who are Jon's parents then?

Rhaegar and Lyanna, but not for love or lust, at least that's not why he took her. I've been thinking a LOT in this and I'm writing  a much better detailed "theory"

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8 hours ago, cristina1996 said:

Actually I don't trust very much everything Barbrey Dustin says, but I started thinking about the fact that Northeners used to marry amongst themselves or at least to house Blackwood and Royce (you see it in the family tree of house stark).

I think that maybe Rickard just wanted to make alliances just in case something happened and I believe he did well because the king was going mad and burned people alive and remember what happened to house Duskendale...  But I don't think he was starting a rebellion, even because Northeners are not used to get involved in southron affairs.

the thing is, is not just Dustin, is the fact that the Martells went to Casterly Rock looking to make alliances, the fact that Tywin offred  Jaimie to Hoster Tully and Rickard offered Brandon. And later Robert and Ned went to the Vale, there's a pattern. She's right.

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22 minutes ago, Gimena Aguerreberry Torres said:

the thing is, is not just Dustin, is the fact that the Martells went to Casterly Rock looking to make alliances, the fact that Tywin offred  Jaimie to Hoster Tully and Rickard offered Brandon. And later Robert and Ned went to the Vale, there's a pattern. She's right.

Yes, it is only Barbrey Dustin. She is literally the only person in the entire series to claim that Lord Rickard Stark had "great ambitions" and "southron ambitions."

And her one and only reference to Rickard's supposed "southron ambitions" are in reference to Rickard's betrothal of his heir Brandon to Catelyn Tully, rather than to a daughter of one of his own vassals:

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me." (ADWD: The Turncloak)

She says nothing about the betrothal of Lyanna to Lord Robert Baratheon, and nothing about the Targaryens, or any plot on the part of Rickard against the Targaryens.

If anything, the Martell and Tully attempts to betroth their children to the children of Lord Tywin Lannister imply the opposite of a plot against House Targaryen.

Princess Martell visited Casterly Rock in an attempt to betroth her children to Lannisters around 273-274 AC, shortly after the death of Joanna, while Tywin was still the loyal Hand of King Aerys II Targaryen, and had every hope and intention of wedding his daughter Cersei to Prince Rhaegar.

Eventually, rather than marry with the Hand of the King, the Martells landed a marriage to Rhaegar himself, with the betrothal of Elia to Rhaegar in 279 AC, and the wedding in early 280 AC.

When Lord Hoster Tully and Tywin were negotiating the betrothal of Lysa and Jaime in around 280-281 AC, Tywin was not only still the loyal Hand of Aerys, but he had gone so far as to invite Hoster to King's Landing to discuss the dower right under Aerys's nose, and according to Jaime, Tywin still had every hope and intention of wedding Cersei to a Targaryen prince.

Even with the deterioration of Aerys, and of the relationship between Tywin and Aerys, a great lord would have been suicidal to  broach the idea of an anti-Targaryen plot with Tywin, or to try to bring Tywin into an anti-Targaryen plot via marriage, in 273-281 AC, prior to Aerys taking Jaime away from him by naming him to the KG.

It remains to be seen exactly how well Rickard, Jon, and Steffon Baratheon knew each other, or exactly why Rickard fostered Ned with Jon. But at the time Rickard fostered Ned in 272-273 AC, the Starks had recent ties to both the Vale and the Stormlands.

Lorra Royce was Rickard's great-grandmother through her son Lord Willam Stark. She was also the grandmother of Rickard's wife Lyarra Stark through her son Rodrik Stark. More recently, Rickard's aunt Jocelyn Stark was wed to a Royce, and she had three daughters who wed Vale lordlings (Catelyn states they were a Waynwood and a Corbray, and possibly a Templeton).

In other words, Rickard, who had no siblings, and whose father's only sibling appears to have been Jocelyn, had an aunt, cousins, and possibly nephews and/or nieces in the Vale.

Interestingly, the Waynwoods and Templetons were two of the houses (along with the main branch of House Royce, the Redforts, and the Belmores) who were close to open revolt over Lysa's refusal to help King Robb Stark in the War of the Five Kings.

So Rickard Stark's children had Royce/Vale ancestry through both their father and their mother Lyarra, they had a great aunt Jocelyn wed to a Royce, they had their father's three female cousins in the Vale who wed Vale lordlings, and presumably their father's three female cousins in the Vale had children perhaps closer in age to them. 

Ned very well might have been fostered alongside relatives of his, through his father's aunt Jocelyn, when he was fostered in the Vale. 

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Well I'm not sure why Rickard sent Ned to the Vale, I don't think that it was the part of some plan, but I would like to ask George Martin if there's some reason or maybe not :huh:. And how many years had he spent there? 

I would like to ask Martin so many things ahah! Expecially about Bran's dreams, for example about that pregnant woman who comes out of the pool and asks the gods to give her a son to avenge her. Do you think she can be Rickard's mother? I don't know why but I don't think she is Lyarra, because the thing that she asks for a son makes me think about Rickard because he is an only child. 

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11 hours ago, cristina1996 said:

Actually I don't trust very much everything Barbrey Dustin says, but I started thinking about the fact that Northeners used to marry amongst themselves or at least to house Blackwood and Royce (you see it in the family tree of house stark).

I think that maybe Rickard just wanted to make alliances just in case something happened and I believe he did well because the king was going mad and burned people alive and remember what happened to house Duskendale...  But I don't think he was starting a rebellion, even because Northeners are not used to get involved in southron affairs.

I think that Rickard was in fact part of the rebellion plotting, first because he had his ambitions, and second because the Tragaryen were awful monarchs at that time, they were obsessed with dragons (to the point that in Summerhall most of them died) and there were a lot of Blackfyres trying to get the throne, so wanting them out was really a matter of survival. I'm finishing a much better theory about this, that hopefully would explain the conspirators motivations. 

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wow I would like to hear it!!! I would like to know more about Rickard from the novels.. but Martin keeps writing about Targaryens only...

Edited by cristina1996

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14 minutes ago, cristina1996 said:

Well I'm not sure why Rickard sent Ned to the Vale, I don't think that it was the part of some plan, but I would like to ask George Martin if there's some reason or maybe not :huh:. And how many years had he spent there? 

@cristina1996

Ned was born in 263 AC:

Not even the wisest could have known that Aerys II would in time be known as the Mad King, nor that his reign would ultimately put an end to near three centuries of Targaryen rule in Westeros. Yet even as Aerys donned his crown, in that fateful year of 262 AC, a lusty blackhaired son named Robert had just been born to his cousin Steffon Baratheon and his lady wife at Storm's End, whilst far to the north at Winterfell, Lord Rickard Stark celebrated the birth of his own son, Brandon. Another Stark, Eddard, followed within a year. All three of these infants, would, in the fullness of time, play crucial roles in the downfall of the dragons. (TWOIAF: Aerys II)

Ned was eight years old when Lord Rickard sent him to foster at the Eyrie with Lord Jon Arryn in 271-272 AC:

"I was eight when my father sent me to foster at the Eyrie," Ned said. "Ser Rodrik tells me there is bad feeling between Robb and Prince Joffrey. That is not healthy. Bran can bridge that distance. He is a sweet boy, quick to laugh, easy to love. Let him grow up with the young princes, let him become their friend as Robert became mine. Our House will be the safer for it." (AGOT: Catelyn II)

Ned's fosterage continued until he reached the age of sixteen in 279-280 AC, after which he was a man grown, and could choose to split his time between Winterfell with his family and the Eyrie with Jon and Robert, who also split his time between Storm's End and the Vale once he came of age in 278-279 AC:

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find. (SSM: March 16, 2000)

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1077

So Ned was fostered for approximately eight years, starting in 271-272 AC and ending in 279-280 AC, during which time he spent much, but not all, of his time in the Vale with Jon.

36 minutes ago, cristina1996 said:

Well I'm not sure why Rickard sent Ned to the Vale, I don't think that it was the part of some plan, but I would like to ask George Martin if there's some reason or maybe not :huh:. And how many years had he spent there? 

I would like to ask Martin so many things ahah! Expecially about Bran's dreams, for example about that pregnant woman who comes out of the pool and asks the gods to give her a son to avenge her. Do you think she can be Rickard's mother? I don't know why but I don't think she is Lyarra, because the thing that she asks for a son makes me think about Rickard because he is an only child. 

That seems plausible. The vision prior to that features a seemingly approximately nine year old Lyanna (around 275-277 AC), and the vision after it features a seemingly post-Whitewalls Tourney (212 AC) Ser Duncan the Tall.

The mid-point between them would be around the early to mid 240 AC, a likely time for Lord Rickard to have been born, with his grandfather Lord Willam having been killed in 226 AC, and his firstborn Brandon having been born in 262 AC.

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4 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Yes, it is only Barbrey Dustin. She is literally the only person in the entire series to claim that Lord Rickard Stark had "great ambitions" and "southron ambitions."

Bastard... I don't think their side cares if "it's" in the books or not.

19 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Bingo 

 

Edited by the Other Wolf

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10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Ned's fosterage continued until he reached the age of sixteen in 279-280 AC, after which he was a man grown, and could choose to split his time between Winterfell with his family and the Eyrie with Jon and Robert, who also split his time between Storm's End and the Vale once he came of age in 278-279 AC:

How did Ned manage to become such a paragon Northener and a close friend of Lyanna's if he spent his time in the Vale from age 8 to 18? Or did he return home at some point(when?) and was just visiting Jon Arryn prior to and after the tourney at Harrenhal?

He was fostered, not exiled. Yes, certainly he returned home. Less frequently the first few years, when he would have been performing the duties of a page and then a squire, more often and for longer periods later. During his "squire" years (he wasn't a squire in the strict sense, since he wasn't training for knighthood, but he was acting as one), he would also have accompanied Jon Arryn on many travels out of the Vale. And once he reached the age of sixteen he was a man grown, free to come to go as he liked... which would have included both time at home and in the Vale, since Jon Arryn had become a second father. The same was true of Robert, who divided his time between Storm's End and the Vale after reaching manhood, not to mention dropping in on tourneys and whatever choice fights he could find. (SSM: March 16, 2000)

Thank you very much, I missed it 

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