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Dead men sing no songs

About R+L=J and a different point of view

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20 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Yes, it is only Barbrey Dustin. She is literally the only person in the entire series to claim that Lord Rickard Stark had "great ambitions" and "southron ambitions."

And her one and only reference to Rickard's supposed "southron ambitions" are in reference to Rickard's betrothal of his heir Brandon to Catelyn Tully, rather than to a daughter of one of his own vassals.

I think it's worth noting that one of said daughters just happened to be Barbrey herself. She's full of it.

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8 minutes ago, Geddus said:

I think it's worth noting that one of said daughters just happened to be Barbrey herself. She's full of it.

Exactly. When Lady Barbrey Dustin, the daughter of Lord Rodrik of House Ryswell, claims that Lord Rickard Stark had "Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his vassals," there is no mistaking that "the daughter" Barbrey is referring to is herself.

"The day I learned that Brandon was to marry Catelyn Tully, though … there was nothing sweet about that pain. He never wanted her, I promise you that. He told me so, on our last night together … but Rickard Stark had great ambitions too. Southron ambitions that would not be served by having his heir marry the daughter of one of his own vassals. Afterward my father nursed some hope of wedding me to Brandon's brother Eddard, but Catelyn Tully got that one as well. I was left with young Lord Dustin, until Ned Stark took him from me." (ADWD: The Turncloak)

Barbrey is not privy to Rickard's true ambitions, and can't give us an informed revelation of Rickard's true ambitions. What she does is engage in projection, while revealing to us the great ambitions that she and her father Rodrik had to wed her to Brandon Stark, heir to Winterfell, and later to Eddard, the next in line.

And besides, her conspiracy about Rickard's southron ambitions do not as of yet include anything about any anti-Targaryen plot, or any plot to seat a Baratheon on the Iron Throne, or any plot to restore the Stark monarchy in the north.

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On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 8:57 AM, GOLDENSTORMWOLF said:

Interesting premise, so who are Jon's parents then?

It is Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.  That is who Jon Snow parents are, Ned made Ashara Dayne switch babies with him at Starfall. Ashara Dayne took the baby girl to the last Targaryens Queen Rhalla and Viserys Targaryen. Queen Rhalla gave birth to stillborn baby and gave the identity, to baby that Ashara brought to Dragon Stone.   Queen Rhalla and Ashara Dayne switch stories of what happen to their babies. Jon Stark is the first in line of succession to Winterfell and Real King of North. Not Rob Stark Ned knows this that will jeopardy the Tully and Stark's alliance.

Edited by Sophia [email protected]
addin

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On ‎1‎/‎22‎/‎2019 at 6:41 PM, Platypus Rex said:

The Ghost of High Heart does not link "wolf" with Summerhall.  She links Arya with "wolf".  Yes, the smell of death is indeed because Arya is a killer.  "I need none of yours" means "I need none of your grief"; which refers to Arya's grief over her family.  This grief connects to the "blood child" accusation, because of course, Arya's grief is a motivation underlying her murders.  (And perhaps also because the murders only bring more grief).

Bottom line, she does not connect Arya's grief to Summerhall.  She distinguishes them.  She is saying to Arya, I don't need your grief, because I have enough of my own.

The grief  comes from the Red Wedding .

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36 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

The grief  comes from the Red Wedding .

Well, sure.  But I don't know why you would want to exclude Arya seeing her dad get his head chopped off.

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3 hours ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

It was about lust .

It was about many things. Lust, Love, respect, strength, prophecy and wanting to protect the world

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16 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

It was about many things. Lust, Love, respect, strength, prophecy and wanting to protect the world

You are such a romantic.. :rolleyes:

It was about hatching dragons. He needed skinchanger blood for the dragon-hatching recipe! MUAH HA HA

"The sphinx is the riddle..."

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18 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

It is Brandon Stark and Ashara Dayne.  That is who Jon Snow parents are, Ned made Ashara Dayne switch babies with him at Starfall. Ashara Dayne took the baby girl to the last Targaryens Queen Rhalla and Viserys Targaryen. Queen Rhalla gave birth to stillborn baby and gave the identity, to baby that Ashara brought to Dragon Stone.   Queen Rhalla and Ashara Dayne switch stories of what happen to their babies. Jon Stark is the first in line of succession to Winterfell and Real King of North. Not Rob Stark Ned knows this that will jeopardy the Tully and Stark's alliance.

Someone ought to check their timeline, among others.

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18 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

You are such a romantic.. :rolleyes:

It was about hatching dragons. He needed skinchanger blood for the dragon-hatching recipe! MUAH HA HA

"The sphinx is the riddle..."

very nice! I didn't think about the skinchanger blood.  

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On 1/26/2019 at 12:20 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

R+L=J is Horse Crap that the writers of show is made up people who reads the books knows the true of it.

R=L=J is a 20 year old theory that existed long before there was a show, whatever that shows did or didn't portray. Brandon was executed in 282 AC, and Ashara allegedly had a stillborn daughter shortly before Ned's visit to her at Starfall after the war, so in late 283 or 284 AC. It is not even certain that Brandon and Ashara ever hooked up, but if they did hook up and conceive a child at Harrenhal in late 281 AC, that child would have been born around mid-282 AC at the latest, long before Jon was conceived, let alone born.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

R=L=J is a 20 year old theory that existed long before there was a show, whatever that shows did or didn't portray. Brandon was executed in 282 AC, and Ashara allegedly had a stillborn daughter shortly before Ned's visit to her at Starfall after the war, so in late 283 or 284 AC. It is not even certain that Brandon and Ashara ever hooked up, but if they did hook up and conceive a child at Harrenhal in late 281 AC, that child would have been born around mid-282 AC at the latest, long before Jon was conceived, let alone born.

Also, usurping Winterfell from his nephew doesn't sound very much like something Ned would do.

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3 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

R=L=J is a 20 year old theory that existed long before there was a show, whatever that shows did or didn't portray. Brandon was executed in 282 AC, and Ashara allegedly had a stillborn daughter shortly before Ned's visit to her at Starfall after the war, so in late 283 or 284 AC. It is not even certain that Brandon and Ashara ever hooked up, but if they did hook up and conceive a child at Harrenhal in late 281 AC, that child would have been born around mid-282 AC at the latest, long before Jon was conceived, let alone born.

Sir there is question mark when was Jon Snow in the books version  "GRRM said that Brandon Stark had No Sons"   meaning that Brandon Stark made son before his death. Ashara Dayne kept a secret. I suggest you view the Preston Theory.

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48 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Also, usurping Winterfell from his nephew doesn't sound very much like something Ned would do.

He would kept a secret to protect the alliance with Tullys. If House Tully never found that Ned's children is not in Succession to get Winterfell?.

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23 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Also, usurping Winterfell from his nephew doesn't sound very much like something Ned would do.

Even if Brandon had fathered a son with Ashara, or with any woman for that matter, there would be nothing for Ned to usurp. And there would certainly be nothing about the child's parentage that Ned would have needed to hide from anyone.

The child would have been a bastard, with an inferior claim to any legitimate children Ned would produce. And if indeed they had wed, you are right, Ned would have raised such a child as Brandon's heir, not put his own children ahead of him. Ned would have jumped at any opportunity to avoid becoming Lord of Winterfell. 

Nobody, including Catelyn, would have been surprised or offended that Brandon fathered a bastard. Catelyn isn't even surprised or upset that Ned fathered one, so the idea that she would be surprised or upset that Brandon fathered one is without basis. Ned would have had no reason to hide this from anyone.

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23 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

He would kept a secret to protect the alliance with Tullys. If House Tully never found that Ned's children is not in Succession to get Winterfell?.

That alliance became basically useless after the Rebellion.

18 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

Even if Brandon had fathered a son with Ashara, or with any woman for that matter, there would be nothing for Ned to usurp. And there would certainly be nothing about the child's parentage that Ned would have needed to hide from anyone.

The child would have been a bastard, with an inferior claim to any legitimate children Ned would produce. And if indeed they had wed, you are right, Ned would have raised such a child as Brandon's heir, not put his own children ahead of him. Ned would have jumped at any opportunity to avoid becoming Lord of Winterfell. 

Nobody, including Catelyn, would have been surprised or offended that Brandon fathered a bastard. Catelyn isn't even surprised or upset that Ned fathered one, so the idea that she would be surprised or upset that Brandon fathered one is without basis. Ned would have had no reason to hide this from anyone.

Oh I agree, I was assuming that the theory you were talking about implied Brandon and Ashara were somehow married, otherwise it would make no sense whatsoever right from the start.

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52 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Sir there is question mark when was Jon Snow in the books version  "GRRM said that Brandon Stark had No Sons"   meaning that Brandon Stark made son before his death. Ashara Dayne kept a secret. I suggest you view the Preston Theory.

Nonsense.

GRRM explicitly stated that Brandon died before he had sons, offering up this information without even being asked:

There seem to be Lannisters and Freys under every rock, while the Starks are very scarce. Does Ned not have any distant relatives who could reclaim Winterfell?

... It's true that in recent times, the Starks have become quite scarce. There's not many of them in the present generatons. Some may say it's because Ned's siblings died. Brandon died before he had sons, and Lyanna is also dead, and Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either. It might also have to do with their father, Rickard, who was an only son and I'd have to go back to my notes to see why he was the only child -- and really, I'm speaking from memory, so that may not be quite right. At home I have my notecards, my family trees where I keep this information, because unlike some other people I can't remember everything.

- SSM: July 28, 2012

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

And lest anyone attempt to twist GRRM's words to leave room that Brandon could have fathered sons that weren't born until after he died, he elaborated, in the same interview, that while Brandon could have left behind some bastards, "what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children":

In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

- SSM: July 28, 2012

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

So GRRM went out of his way to tell us (without being asked) that Brandon fathered no sons, or legitimate children of any gender, and that "Benjen joined the Night's Watch which means he doesn't have descendants either."

But when it comes to Lyanna, he simply states "and Lyanna is also dead." A great opportunity to rule out that she had descendants, or at least legitimate descendants, but he didn't take it, despite the Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon theory being nearly fifteen years old at the time.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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28 minutes ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

He would kept a secret to protect the alliance with Tullys. If House Tully never found that Ned's children is not in Succession to get Winterfell?.

1. There was no alliance with the Tullys until months into Robert's Rebellion, when Ned agreed to wed Catelyn prior to the Battle of the Bells, by which time Brandon was long dead, and any bastards of his were irrelevant to any alliance or succession.

2. If Brandon had any children they were bastards, and no bastard of Brandon's was ever going to come before legitimate children fathered by Ned.

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9 minutes ago, Geddus said:

Oh I agree, I was assuming that the theory you were talking about implied Brandon and Ashara were somehow married, otherwise it would make no sense whatsoever right from the start.

You're right, that seems to be what they are arguing. GRRM debunks that Brandon had any legitimate children, and if he had, we can be certain Ned would have raised him as Brandon's legitimate heir.

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