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Ser Uncle P

Dorne and the Faith after Aegon...

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The Faith and the Citadel accept Aegon and the High Septon formally anoints him Lord of the Seven Kingdoms. 

So how does Dorne, which is still independent take this? Before Aegon Maesters and Septons were dispersed in all parts of the separate Kingdoms, obviously accepted by each separate sovereign ruler. 

I'd expect Dornish lords to be at least hostile to agents of bodies that recognised Aegon's claim. Especially Maesters and Septons sent to Dorne after both Faith and Citadel recognised Aegon's title as Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.. 

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That’s a good point. I’m surprised nobody brought that up. But then again, the Faith has no authority to crown Aegon King in the North or Iron Islands since the Faith has little to no power in either places. We can assume that their words, like any religion, are empty unless enforced by military power or popular support.

Edited by James Steller

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From the SSM:

Quote

1. Well, okay. Before the unification of Dorne with the rest of the Seven Kingdoms, what did they do for a High Septon? Was there an Antipope-type of rival supported by the Martells? An Archsepton of Sunspear? Or did Dorne accept the High Septon, despite being based in King's Landing and beholden to the Targaryens?

The Faith is not limited to the Seven Kingdoms proper, any more than the medieval Church was limited to Italy. So no, no Dornish antipopes. And the High Septon was not especially "beholden" to the Targaryens. In fact, he was a dangerous rival... well, until the reign of Maegor the Cruel, at least.

I suppose this leads into the larger question of who controlled the High Septon prior to the Targaryen Conquest.

See preceding answer.

 

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Still, one would expect that the Dornish septons and followers of the Faith would be really disappointed with the High Septon anointing Aegon as "the lord of the Seven Kingdoms" while they were still resisting him.

ETA: Although that could easily be the reason why Dorne seems to be the Southern kingdom where the Faith has less influence, with prominent temples of R'hllor and a relaxed attitude towards homosexuals and paramours.

Edited by The hairy bear

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23 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

Still, one would expect that the Dornish septons and followers of the Faith would be really disappointed with the High Septon anointing Aegon as "the lord of the Seven Kingdoms" while they were still resisting him.

That may be so, but it seems to be me a misconception to assume the High Septon actually had judicial or other powers in the independent kingdoms outside Oldtown. He was a nominal and especially a moral/spiritual authority, the one you turned to when you wanted clarification in religious matters, but at this point we do not know that he anointed all the other monarchs of the Seven Kingdoms prior to the Conquest, say, or that he had his representatives at the courts of all the Andal kings, or really the power to interfere in the internal matters of the kingdoms outside the Reach.

Instead, the impression we have is that the Faith Militant and the other orders and septries of the Faith are more or less independent orders which are not exactly part of a proper hierarchy similar to the Catholic Church. They are all pretty much independent with the High Septon being the only guy they are truly beholden to (although it might be that the Most Devout come from all the Seven Kingdoms).

Basically there seem to be no bishops in the Faith, just abbots and abbesses (Mother Elinor would have been one of them, presumably), and then Grand Masters/leaders of the various orders - Warrior's Sons, possibly Poor Fellows as well, and the other orders as well.

23 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

ETA: Although that could easily be the reason why Dorne seems to be the Southern kingdom where the Faith has less influence, with prominent temples of R'hllor and a relaxed attitude towards homosexuals and paramours.

Isn't there a red temple in Oldtown, too? The Faith doesn't seem to condemn homosexuality, by the way. Nobody in Westeros seems to actually have issues with homosexuality. Renly and Loras don't have an open relationship, but that seems to have to do more with the Margaery marriage than the fact that this would have made them very unpopular.

Laenor Velaryon was pretty open with his homosexuality, and Prince Daeron and Jeremy Norridge effectively *married* each other. Rhaena, Elissa, Black Aly and Sabitha Frey, etc. were also not really vilified for their lesbian relationships, so the Faith of the Andals is clearly not as obsessed with marriage and heterosexual relationships as Christianity.

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GRRM indicates that the Faith frowns on homosexuality, but it is not persecuted, nor is it by the Crown. It's a "dirty little secret", as we see with the fact that Renly kept a household staff based on their ability to keep quiet about what went on in his household, with Jaime's insults regarding Loras, Renly, and Oberyn, with Septon Cellador objecting to Satin because he was a "painted catamite", and so on.

Most of those examples you list actually did not "openly" practice homosexuality, even if "everyone" knew their preferences. Why is that? Because it's frowned on. 

The fact that Black Aly was alleged to be of Sabitha's "ilk" was actually a fairly obvious calumny against her, showing that the suggestion was in itself an attack on her character. It's a nuance of the English language that "ilk" is almost exclusively used in perjorative contexts.

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Well, it is not against the religion doctrine, though. It isn't punished by being stoned to death with stones, nor condemned by the gods.

That male homosexuality is not exactly something that's seen as manly, especially if you are the passive part, is hardly surprising. But that was even the case in Ancient Greece and Rome.

We actually have no indication why it is frowned upon - or by whom, if that's what it is. We have no statement at this point about the Faith actually condemning or criticizing homosexuality.

It could just be distasteful to flaunt your lover in public if you are also married - which might also be the reason why Laenor unlike Daeron the Gay never had a proper *spouse* (although his favorites were very obviously his lovers both before and after his marriage to Rhaenyra). And if we really take Selmy's memory in ADwD seriously then Daeron and Jeremy were actually *married* in a sense - and Selmy was completely okay with that and subsequently male homosexuality in general. It is that or the first sign that the old man is getting senile.

We do not *really know* why Renly wanted servants who could keep their mouths shut. Could be because of his relationship with Loras - but it could also be because of his intrigues, or because he liked to throw orgies while Loras was away (or even while he was there). Loras recalls Renly showing him pornography back at Storm's End, possibly indicate that Renly Baratheon was very active sexually, and while we do know that Loras was very much in love with Renly we have little reason to believe Loras was the sun for Renly - and not just some easily replaced candle. And we do know that promiscuity is not exactly a virtue in Westeros, so Renly would have a reason to hide the fact that he was sleeping with a lot of people - especially if wanted the public to believe that this was not the case.

I'd say Satin is condemned for being a prostitute. Whores are not in high esteem in this world. Cross-dressing is also considered to be weird if 'Queen Lorea' is any indication.

As for Black Aly - lesbians are historically not criticized in the real middle ages for being lesbians. At best they are ridiculed or condemned as men-haters, etc. Aly and Sabitha were odd because they were not fucking men, not because they were having sex with each other. Women have no sex drive in a medieval mindset, they don't have a sexuality of their own, independent from their *natural desire* to please men. If they are *unnatural* then only because they avoid men. This is why no main religion/holy book I'm aware of ever condemned female homosexuality.

You see this perfectly exemplified with Rhaena. She is so obviously gay, but this is irrelevant. The stories about her have her give her maidenhead some guy. Nobody cares or even notices what she really is about. Sex among noblewomen should be common place in this world, anyway. They share beds together, often in groups. It is very likely that many a maiden has her first sexual experiences with another girl. But nobody cares.

The scandals surrounding Rhaena had nothing to do with sex, but actual romantic affection/love. She was granting the women she loved with undue favors, and that was disrupting court life because it enabled people to have an undue influence over the princess who should not have such influence - sort of like lowborn paramours to kings and lords are seen as a pest. If she had abstained from actually treating her lovers as lovers and continued to fuck them as ladies-in-waiting and servants, etc. nobody would have said anything.

The same with Elissa Farman. Her dear brother condemns her not for her sexuality - that's irrelevant/non-existent. What's relevant is that she presumes to live her sexuality and identity by refusing to marry a man of his choosing.

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There was something in the World Book which said that the "septons tried to steer Dorne to the right path" because of their loose sexual practices including bisexuality. So I think there would be some religious stigma against homosexuality. 

And I'd say Renly was pretty monogamous with Loras. The rumours surrounding them had not only to do with their gayness, but their gayness in relation with each other. If there were other lovers we don't hear of them. Renly also wears green and gold in all his scenes, which is kind of like the bride taking on her husband's colors after marriage. This was even before marrying Margaery, mind, so it was with Loras in mind that he did this. And he certainly intended for the relationship to last since he put Loras at a life long position at his side as Lord Commander of his Kingsguard. 

The resentment towards Satin is not just that he was a male prostitute, but that he is openly effeminate, wearing perfume in his hair, looking “pretty”, etc. I think that homosexuality is more frowned upon if the person in question takes on the role of the "girl", to put it in a crude manner, which is what everyone would assume of Satin. 

As a whole if the gay person performs masculinity on the outside, is discreet, etc most look the other way. Which is why Daemon II had trouble getting people to follow him, as he was openly effeminate and flamboyant. 

The fact that  Daeron liquidified his engagement with no fuss from Aegon implies that some have no problem with the lifestyle, or accept that it's something that cannot be changed. 

Edited by S. D

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12 hours ago, S. D said:

And I'd say Renly was pretty monogamous with Loras. The rumours surrounding them had not only to do with their gayness, but their gayness in relation with each other. If there were other lovers we don't hear of them. Renly also wears green and gold in all his scenes, which is kind of like the bride taking on her husband's colors after marriage. This was even before marrying Margaery, mind, so it was with Loras in mind that he did this. And he certainly intended for the relationship to last since he put Loras at a life long position at his side as Lord Commander of his Kingsguard. 

Loras does not reside in the Red Keep. He just comes for the tourney. And a man has his needs, no? Renly is a virile young man, and a Baratheon at that. Even Stannis cannot be faithful to his wife...

I'd like to know more about Renly as a person and his feelings for Loras but we have no clue about the latter. All we can say is that he found Loras much more interesting than Margaery - both physically and intellectually.

12 hours ago, S. D said:

The resentment towards Satin is not just that he was a male prostitute, but that he is openly effeminate, wearing perfume in his hair, looking “pretty”, etc. I think that homosexuality is more frowned upon if the person in question takes on the role of the "girl", to put it in a crude manner, which is what everyone would assume of Satin. 

Sure. Even in antiquity it was only manly to bugger another man, not being buggered since the latter is the role of the woman. And we cannot like playing that role, can we?

Laenor Velaryon also seems one of the more effeminate homosexuals considering that fact that he gets his Ser only for his wedding, does not ride/fight in tourneys himself, and plays the role of the woman by giving his favors to Joffrey Lonmouth.

12 hours ago, S. D said:

As a whole if the gay person performs masculinity on the outside, is discreet, etc most look the other way. Which is why Daemon II had trouble getting people to follow him, as he was openly effeminate and flamboyant.

Daemon II was neither effeminate nor more flamboyant than the average pampered royal prince. His lack of support is based pretty much exclusively on the fact that his dear uncle chose not to support him (although we don't really know whether Bittersteel refused to help him or whether Daemon refused to listen to Bittersteel and he and Gormy decided to not include the man in their plans) plan was build on nothing but a weirdo dream and the fact that the plan failed before they could rally a lot of people to their cause.

All the man Peake wanted to be at Whitewalls did come to Whitewalls. There is no talk about them inviting more lords who then chose to not come.

12 hours ago, S. D said:

The fact that  Daeron liquidified his engagement with no fuss from Aegon implies that some have no problem with the lifestyle, or accept that it's something that cannot be changed. 

Sure. And since he and Jeremy supposedly were *married* the best way to make sense of that without making Selmy look like a senile dotard is to actually have a septon marry them. If Septon Murmison and Septon Oswyck can officiate at abominable incestuous marriage long before the Doctrine of Exceptionalism has become an official tenet of the Faith then another corrupt/open/progressive septon could also officiate at some sort of *wedding ceremony* for Daeron and Jeremy. After all, at this point we can safely say that the Faith abhorred incest much more than homosexuality. The latter may be not normal/a sin of the same degree as 'normal fornication' but the former is something the Faith actually decided to go to war to stop.

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We don't actually know if Loras was there just for the tourney or not. He could have been staying in KL under some kind of pretext (I'm serving Robert as his sworn shield!) And you have entirely ignored my point about him wearing Tyrell colors, which does indicate deeper feelings...though I suppose that doesn't preclude him sleeping with others. 

Effeminate might not be the right word, but Daemon II certainly wasn't manly. He was hitting on Dunk too, so he didn't take great pains to hide his sexuality. And wouldn't his homosexuality be one of the reasons Bittersteel didn't support him? IIRC there was also a character who spoke derisively of him/stated he didn't want to support him because of his homosexuality. I might be wrong though. 

There are other indications of this intolerance. Whoresbane Umber killed a "boy whore" who stole from him and the story is "spoken of only in whispers" why do you think that is? Cause its not accepted/seen as shameful. This also happened in the North, where there's no Faith of The Seven, so there is also a societal taboo against it, in addition to a religious stigma. 

Victarion Greyjoy also drowns a bunch of male prostitutes and calls them abominations. 

There's also this:

Quote

"Our bodies were shaped by our Father and Mother so we might join male to female and beget trueborn children. It is base and sinful for women to sell their holy parts for coin."

--Septon Raynard to Cersei Lannister (AFFC, Cersei VIII). 

The Faith teaches that man was made to be with a woman and that children should come out of their union. I don't actually think gay people are actively persecuted though, which is about as far as I agree. 

Edited by S. D

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It's probably similar to how France. England, Spain, etc. were loyal to the Catholic Church in the Medieval period even though the pope would crown the Holy Roman emperor. But yeah, it was probably a little awkward.

Along the same line of thought, it's interesting to imagine how in the pre-Targ era the Citadel and Faith functioned as pan-Westerosi institutions even though they were both housed in one kingdom and one city at that. Those institutions plus the common language probably made a united Westeros more palatable to people.

Edited by SerBronnsMullet

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4 hours ago, S. D said:

We don't actually know if Loras was there just for the tourney or not. He could have been staying in KL under some kind of pretext (I'm serving Robert as his sworn shield!) And you have entirely ignored my point about him wearing Tyrell colors, which does indicate deeper feelings...though I suppose that doesn't preclude him sleeping with others. 

Oh, well, originally Renly had green eyes, so what you see as Tyrell colors I just see as him wearing stuff to bring out his eyes ;-).

Renly is basically a black hole. We know pretty much nothing about the man or his feelings. All we ever see his shining 'copper' surface. Perhaps that was all there is to him, as Donal Noye and Cressen would say. Perhaps he had some depth. We don't know. I'd find it odd if he were truly deeply emotionally involved with Loras. Renly is in his early twenties and Loras is just a youth of sixteen.

4 hours ago, S. D said:

Effeminate might not be the right word, but Daemon II certainly wasn't manly. He was hitting on Dunk too, so he didn't take great pains to hide his sexuality. And wouldn't his homosexuality be one of the reasons Bittersteel didn't support him? IIRC there was also a character who spoke derisively of him/stated he didn't want to support him because of his homosexuality. I might be wrong though. 

Yandel speculates that Bittersteel may have had reservations because of the Daemon-Alyn thing, but that's speculation. We'll have to wait for Aegor Rivers' own opinion - which he may give in a future Dunk & Egg story or via Gyldayn in a future volume of FaB.

People at Whitewalls criticize the plan for it being stupidly based on a dream, for Bloodraven likely being able to unmake their plans before they take off, and because Daemon doesn't bear 'the sword'. The latter is something we can lay at Bittersteel's feet, but that indicates much more a general odd behavior since we can all agree that Daemon the Younger became 'King Daemon the Second of His Name, etc.' the moment Daemon I breathed his last on the Redgrass Field. He was the oldest son of Daemon Blackfyre and thus his rightful heir if primogeniture counted for anything. Daemon the Younger should have owned Blackfyre since that day - or at least since he was a man grown, long before he made the Whitewalls plan.

That Bittersteel presumed to keep 'the sword' from him reflects very badly on him...

Overall, I'm inclined to believe Daemon II is very much like his dear sire character-wise - aside from not being as great at arms. He is careless, charismatic, funny, confident, and not much of a deep thinker - exactly the way one imagines Daemon Blackfyre if he was really led by the nose into his rebellion thing - which is very much implied.

4 hours ago, S. D said:

There are other indications of this intolerance. Whoresbane Umber killed a "boy whore" who stole from him and the story is "spoken of only in whispers" why do you think that is? Cause its not accepted/seen as shameful. This also happened in the North, where there's no Faith of The Seven, so there is also a societal taboo against it, in addition to a religious stigma. 

Yeah, that is somewhat odd and indicates that the manly Northmen don't like it if men lie with men. Although it is not exactly clear what exactly the issue is. And the fact that the man is called Whoresbane strongly imply pretty much everybody knows that story anyway...

My point is not that I say homosexuality is great in Westeros, I say people don't really have legal issues or legal punishment issues with that.

4 hours ago, S. D said:

Victarion Greyjoy also drowns a bunch of male prostitutes and calls them abominations.

Yeah, but Vic is just the greatest moron in the books who is basically afraid/abhorred by everything he does not know/understand. He would possibly be afraid of a dildo if you gave him one - either run away or kill you for it ;-).

4 hours ago, S. D said:

There's also this:

--Septon Raynard to Cersei Lannister (AFFC, Cersei VIII). 

The Faith teaches that man was made to be with a woman and that children should come out of their union. I don't actually think gay people are actively persecuted though, which is about as far as I agree. 

Yeah, that makes sense.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Oh, well, originally Renly had green eyes, so what you see as Tyrell colors I just see as him wearing stuff to bring out his eyes ;-).

Renly is basically a black hole. We know pretty much nothing about the man or his feelings. All we ever see his shining 'copper' surface. Perhaps that was all there is to him, as Donal Noye and Cressen would say. Perhaps he had some depth. We don't know. I'd find it odd if he were truly deeply emotionally involved with Loras. Renly is in his early twenties and Loras is just a youth of sixteen.

I disagree because in his camp he also had a bunch of green and gold stuff. I agree Renly is supposed to be a cipher but looking at his background might help understand him. He was an orphan and was raised away from his brothers so I think he looked at the Tyrells as akin to family - like Theon wanting to be a Stark. I understand this is all basically headcanon though so I don't mind if you don't accept my POV! I admit I'm biased because I ship them :blush:. I just think he picked up his scheming and duplicitous ways from them, and was close to them because he associated them with luxury and beauty, things he holds in great esteem. . And Jon and Ygritte also had a 4 year gap like Renly/Loras but a genuine relationship. 

Well I'm glad we cleared up the homosexuality issue. Basically it's "Don't ask, don't tell."

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4 hours ago, S. D said:

I disagree because in his camp he also had a bunch of green and gold stuff.

Well, at that time he was married to Margaery Tyrell and it makes sense there to show off both the Baratheon gold and the Tyrell green... You do know that the Baratheon arms depict a black stag on a field of gold, no?

4 hours ago, S. D said:

I agree Renly is supposed to be a cipher but looking at his background might help understand him. He was an orphan and was raised away from his brothers so I think he looked at the Tyrells as akin to family - like Theon wanting to be a Stark. I understand this is all basically headcanon though so I don't mind if you don't accept my POV! I admit I'm biased because I ship them :blush:. I just think he picked up his scheming and duplicitous ways from them, and was close to them because he associated them with luxury and beauty, things he holds in great esteem. . And Jon and Ygritte also had a 4 year gap like Renly/Loras but a genuine relationship. 

Unfortunately we have no clue how Renly grew up. Could be that it was at Storm's End, but it could just well be that Robert took him to KL and raised him there. We have no idea. We don't even know when exactly Stannis left Storm's End to go to Dragonstone and when exactly Robert made Stannis the Lord of Dragonstone and Renly the Lord of Storm's End. It makes sense to assume the former happened early on during his reign since it would have been of considerable political importance to reorganize the Lords of the Narrow Sea and curb the power of the Velaryons and Celtigars, etc. to ensure they do not involve themselves in any attempt to restore the Targaryens - but we don't know that.

It is also plausible that Renly became Lord of Storm's End before Tommen's birth but even that is unknown. And even if he were made Lord of Storm's relatively early in Robert's reign we would still not know where he was raised.

However, Renly's personality strongly indicates he was not a lonely orphan or anything. He wanted/was at the center of attention since his childhood (as per Cressen's memory) and one assumes that wherever he was raised - KL or Storm's End - he was always surrounded by flatterers and sycophants and fans. Renly would have to be a very great actor to actually merely project or fake the security and confidence he depicts in AGoT and ACoK.

Stannis was deeply affected by the loss of his parents - but Renly apparently didn't care. Likely because he was still too young at the time.

At this point we also know nothing about Renly ever visiting Highgarden prior to his coronation there, so I doubt he looked to the Tyrells as a second family - especially not since no Tyrells but Margaery and Loras actually marched in his army in ACoK. The absence of Mace, Willas, Garlan, and the army of uncles and cousins in telling.

Overall, Renly is a sadly underdeveloped character. I think the problem there is that he was conceived rather early in the series, and at a time when ASoIaF was just in the transition phase between 'original trilogy idea' and the multiple volume series it is now. Renly was conceived as a dayfly distraction for the main characters, and thus he has little background and pretty much no depth. George doesn't really care about either his eye color or his age. And it seems pretty clear that both he and Stannis were are a rather late addition in the writing process of AGoT since the original outline does not mention any Baratheon brothers, nor does AGoT as such reflect the fact that there is a (or rather multiple) Baratheon faction(s) at court. We only get Lannister cronies, but Robert, Stannis, and Renly all don't have any minions. In light of the ambitions of Robert's brothers and the overall importance of House Baratheon before it took the throne this was always odd. It reflects, I think, the original setup of Robert basically being a lonely guy surrounded completely by Lannisters

There are some more glimpses of Renly after his death, but only in relation to other characters - how Loras, Brienne, etc. saw him/were affected by him.. George does not explore him as a character the way he does, say, the dead Lannisters or Targaryens.

It would be great to learn where and how Renly grew up, when/how he became Lord of Storm's End, who raised him if Robert didn't take them upon himself, and whether that person was more a father figure for him - or perhaps also his first lover? 

4 hours ago, S. D said:

Well I'm glad we cleared up the homosexuality issue. Basically it's "Don't ask, don't tell."

Oh, I think one could tell. It just didn't seem to be polite to ask.

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The app says they were in love so that's the end of that.

EDIT:

And Renly wasn't raised at KL. 

"Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court."

-SSM

Edited by Peach King

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3 hours ago, Peach King said:

The app says they were in love so that's the end of that.

EDIT:

And Renly wasn't raised at KL. 

"Renly was the baby of the family, and spent little time in Robert's company until he was old enough to come to court."

-SSM

This doesn't specify when he was old enough to come to court, though, or whether he was raised at Storm's End the entire time or at first accompanied Stannis to Dragonstone. Keep in mind that children - pages, squires, etc. - also live at court, and Renly was already six years old when Robert took the throne in 283 AC. So technically he could have come to court as a page, at, say, the age from 7-10 and then served as squire from ten onwards.

It is odd that Robert would throw as high a honor as Storm's End at him and not actually give him an exalted/high position at court from the start.

In fact, if you think about it Renly should and could easily enough have served Robert as squire and could have been knighted by him. Or that he served Stannis in that capacity.

From Cersei's memories of Stannis' constant complaints about Renly getting Storm's End one imagines Robert made that decision only after his marriage to Cersei, i.e. not immediately after he took the throne.

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18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And it seems pretty clear that both he and Stannis were are a rather late addition in the writing process of AGoT since the original outline does not mention any Baratheon brothers, nor does AGoT as such reflect the fact that there is a (or rather multiple) Baratheon faction(s) at court. We only get Lannister cronies, but Robert, Stannis, and Renly all don't have any minions. In light of the ambitions of Robert's brothers and the overall importance of House Baratheon before it took the throne this was always odd. It reflects, I think, the original setup of Robert basically being a lonely guy surrounded completely by Lannisters

This could be true but there is reason to believe there is a significant non-Lannister bloc at court. The fact that Jon Arryn gets Littlefinger, who worked his way up through the Vale admin, as master of coin and there are named Vale knights in KL indicates there is a Vale presence at court. Jon dying and Lysa fleeing probably killed the Vale court party. Renly has a significant force that he fled with during the Lannister coup, we know Stannis has his own court, though it's unclear who was at Dragonstone and who was at KL, and I believe a large portion of the force Ned sent to detain Gregor Clegane was made of Baratheon loyalists. We also don't know what the court was like earlier in Robert's reign or who MoL or MoC were before Renly and Littlefinger.

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13 minutes ago, SerBronnsMullet said:

This could be true but there is reason to believe there is a significant non-Lannister bloc at court. The fact that Jon Arryn gets Littlefinger, who worked his way up through the Vale admin, as master of coin and there are named Vale knights in KL indicates there is a Vale presence at court. Jon dying and Lysa fleeing probably killed the Vale court party. Renly has a significant force that he fled with during the Lannister coup, we know Stannis has his own court, though it's unclear who was at Dragonstone and who was at KL, and I believe a large portion of the force Ned sent to detain Gregor Clegane was made of Baratheon loyalists. We also don't know what the court was like earlier in Robert's reign or who MoL or MoC were before Renly and Littlefinger.

We don't learn anything about many Vale nobles being there with Jon. There was certainly a guard and some retainers, but Lysa did indeed take nearly all of them with her.

Renly claims he could have raised a hundred men but we don't know whether that's true nor, if it was true, who they were. One presumes Stormlanders and/or Reach men, but no such men are mentioned as permanent courtiers/hangers-on. Beric Dondarrion, for instance, apparently only came to court for the tourney, as did Loras.

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