Small Questions v. 10106

[Ran]

8 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Ran, I was wondering if you happened to have seen the Hightower family tree (if there is one). I'm asking mainly because I'm interested in finding out the name of the brave woman who popped out 10 children (and then probably died of exhaustion).

As much of a mystery to me as to everyone else. Not a tree we've seen from George.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

7 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

@Ran, I was wondering if you happened to have seen the Hightower family tree (if there is one). I'm asking mainly because I'm interested in finding out the name of the brave woman who popped out 10 children (and then probably died of exhaustion).

If you are talking about the current Hightowers, Leyton had 3 other wives before Rhea Florent so it is more than possible that some of his children are actually step-siblings and it not one woman who gave birth to all of them.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

19 minutes ago, Mrs.Grumpy said:

If you are talking about the current Hightowers, Leyton had 3 other wives before Rhea Florent so it is more than possible that some of his children are actually step-siblings and it not one woman who gave birth to all of them.

The problem with this is that his children are presented as being full siblings in the appendix. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

8 hours ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The problem with this is that his children are presented as being full siblings in the appendix. 

I have to disagree. They are listed as Leyton's children, and no further specification is given.

[zionius]

 

It says "his children", while other house entries usually say "their children". So, it's clear the children are from the four wives.

[Ser Not Appearing]

Rereading book 2 and I note that Varys tells Tyrion that the tunnel in Chataya's establishment was made for another hand whose honor wouldn't allow him to be known visiting such a place.

 

Are there any textual references, clues or indications who that hand would be? Specifically, I'm considering Tywin.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Ser Not Appearing said:

Are there any textual references, clues or indications who that hand would be? Specifically, I'm considering Tywin.

Not per se or that I've ever seen myself. But those of us who believe it was him think the answer to that question is in Tywin's bed in the 3rd book.

[Ckram]

Is it really said in the english editions of Fire & Blood that Jacaerys Velaryon was considered man grown by every laws of Westeros at the age of 15 (F&B, The Dying of the Dragons: The Red Dragon and the Gold)?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Ckram said:

Is it really said in the english editions of Fire & Blood that Jacaerys Velaryon was considered man grown by every laws of Westeros at the age of 15 (F&B, The Dying of the Dragons: The Red Dragon and the Gold)?

I've searched the chapter on "Jacaerys", "Jace","manhood",  and "man grown" but found nothing of such a statement.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Rhaenys_Targaryen

[Ckram]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

My translated edition says something like this:

"Prince Joffrey was just eleven... but Jacaerys, prince of Dragonstone, was on the edge of his fifteenth name day, when according every law of Westeros he'd became a man grown.

It was Jace who took the lead then, at the end of the year 129 AC..."

Would you mind to take another look? Thanks in advance.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 minute ago, Ckram said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

My translated edition says something like this:

"Prince Joffrey was just eleven... but Jacaerys, prince of Dragonstone, was on the edge of his fifteenth name day, when according every law of Westeros he'd became a man grown.

It was Jace who took the lead then, at the end of the year 129 AC..."

Would you mind to take another look? Thanks in advance.

Of course

I think this is the passage you are referring to:

These are large claims for a small man, and ones not borne out by any of our other chroniclers, no more than by the facts. Her Grace was far from alone. Four living sons remained to her. "My strength and my consolation," the queen called them. Aegon the Younger and Viserys, Prince Daemon's sons, were nine and seven, respectively. Prince Joffrey was but eleven… but Jacaerys, Prince of Dragonstone, was on the cusp of his fifteenth nameday.

It was Jace who came to the fore now, late in the year 129 AC. Mindful of the promise he had made to the Maiden of the Vale, he ordered Prince Joffrey to fly to Gulltown with Tyraxes. [...]

[Ckram]

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

Thank you! That is the one. I see they removed the part about him being a man grown by every law at 15. I remember @Ran said some translations were based on drafts, not final revised texts. It seems to be my case.

Edit: Here's Ran statement.

Edited March 3, 2019 by Ckram

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 minute ago, Ckram said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

Thank you! That is the one. I see they removed the part about him being a man grown by every law at 15. I remember @Ran said some translations were based on drafts, not final revised texts. It seems to be my case.

Possibly. In addition, the books (and GRRM in an SSM) have thusfar clearly established that one becomes a man/woman grown at the age of sixteen, not fifteen (which could then also be the reason why it was removed from the final text, if it had indeed been in the original English draft).

[Ckram]

1 minute ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

the books (and GRRM in an SSM) have thusfar clearly established that one becomes a man/woman grown at the age of sixteen, not fifteen

I know. That's reason I asked. In my opinion, no way Martin would change it 20 years and 5 books later.

[Lady Anna]

Does Stannis know that it was Rattleshirt who was burned and not Mance?

[Clegane'sPup]

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

Does Stannis know that it was Rattleshirt who was burned and not Mance?

That is a good question.

Take into consideration in DwD Jon IV Stannis has a meeting in which Rattleshirt (Mance) is present.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV    Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."/

Sorry. I can't give a yes or no. Either Stannis knows or Lady Red has deceived Stannis.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, Rhaenys_Targaryen said:

Possibly. In addition, the books (and GRRM in an SSM) have thusfar clearly established that one becomes a man/woman grown at the age of sixteen, not fifteen (which could then also be the reason why it was removed from the final text, if it had indeed been in the original English draft).

The issue here arises from the fact that George failed to actually keep the numbers straight when publishing first TPatQ and then TRP, but this was finally corrected (sort of, at least - Jace and Luke are still too old in the Vhagar scene in 120 AC) in FaB. If you narrow birth dates close to months or at least things like 'near the end of the year' then you really do have to do proper calculations when mentioning ages of characters at a rather specific time in a particular year.

1 hour ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That is a good question.

Take into consideration in DwD Jon IV Stannis has a meeting in which Rattleshirt (Mance) is present.

A Dance with Dragons - Jon IV    Rattleshirt sat scratching at the manacle on his wrist with a cracked yellow fingernail. Brown stubble covered his sunken cheeks and receding chin, and strands of dirty hair hung across his eyes. "Here he comes," he said when he saw Jon, "the brave boy who slew Mance Rayder when he was caged and bound." The big square-cut gem that adorned his iron cuff glimmered redly. "Do you like my ruby, Snow? A token o' love from Lady Red."/

Sorry. I can't give a yes or no. Either Stannis knows or Lady Red has deceived Stannis.

I think I've discussed that rather in-depth with Ran sometime ago (which was mainly about the question whether Mance is still Stannis' man or rather Jon's now that Stannis has handed him over to him in the guise of Rattleshirt). I maintain that Stannis must know, and that his knowledge of that is also the reason why he makes a gift of Rattleshirt to Jon. He wants the man close to Jon who, in a sense, convinced him to spare Mance's life, because he came to the conclusion Mance knows stuff about the Others that is going to help them in the future.

There is also very little reason to assume that Stannis would suffer scum like Rattleshirt at his councils, not even as a quiet attendant. Stannis does not like to surround himself with morons. He may have done that to please Mel, but surely he must have realized that Rattleshirt is suddenly completely different than he used to be assuming him being at those councils actually had a function - meaning that 'Rattleshirt' advised them on wildlings and other things.

The idea that Mel would actually deceive Stannis about something as, well, important such as this and then later basically undo the glamor and allow Mance to go down south in his real shape is, quite frankly, very weird if we assume that Stannis does not know. He is likely not going to be very pleased where he to find out that Mel (and at least Godry Farring) betrayed him. Also, 'Mance' seems to imply that a number of people were involved in the deception when Godry cuts him off. His last word is 'they'. It would be very odd if Stannis himself wasn't a part of this 'they'.

If he was, then Stannis is even less in control of his own court and people than all the heavy symbolism about the queen's men and the hold Melisandre has over him implies.

But there are hints that Stannis might indeed not know. 'Mance' only curses Melisandre and not Stannis when he curses in his cage, Mel is actually relieved when Jon puts 'Mance' out of his misery, unlike Stannis (but perhaps Mel never told Stannis how strongly she would feel the fire while upholding the glamor), but this is really inconclusive.

[Clegane'sPup]

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

but this is really inconclusive.

That is why I answered the question (Does Stannis know that it was Rattleshirt who was burned and not Mance?) the way I did.

Stannis either knows or does not know. Some posters say yes others say no. So I left it up the person who asked the question to decide --- yea or nay.

 

[Lady Anna]

On 3/3/2019 at 9:36 PM, Ckram said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen

Thank you! That is the one. I see they removed the part about him being a man grown by every law at 15. I remember @Ran said some translations were based on drafts, not final revised texts. It seems to be my case.

Edit: Here's Ran statement.

You're not alone. In my translation they also mention the part about Jace being near 15 and a man grown. It's the portuguese edition.

[Lady Anna]

4 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said:

That is why I answered the question (Does Stannis know that it was Rattleshirt who was burned and not Mance?) the way I did.

Stannis either knows or does not know. Some posters say yes others say no. So I left it up the person who asked the question to decide --- yea or nay.

 

And I appreciate your and Lord Varys answers! Doesn't make sense for him to not know, I guess, but for some reason that was the impression I got from the book.