Small Questions v. 10106

[Ser Leftwich]

Has GRRM ever mentioned "The Flight of Dragons" by Peter Dickinson as an influence?

[corbon]

53 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

What's the source for the claim from the wiki and the citadel that the Masseys of Stonedance are sworn to KL rather than Dragonstone?

Intuitively I'd have said the Masseys would be bannermen of Dragonstone, not KL. After all, like the Bar Emmons the Masseys were Targaryen men even before the Conquest despite the fact that nominally they were sworn to Storm's End.

Probably this from the Mystery Knight

Quote

From Maidenpool had come Lord Mooton, from Raventree Lord Blackwood, from Duskendale Lord Darklyn. The royal demenses about King's Landing sent forth Hayfords, Rosbys, Stokeworths, Masseys, and the king's own sworn swords, led by three knights of the Kingsguard and stiffened by three hundred Raven's Teeth with tall white weirwood bows. 

This from tWoIaF, pre-conquest

Quote

Aegon made no reply. Instead he summoned his friends, bannermen, and principal allies to attend him on Dragonstone. Their numbers were small. The Velaryons on Driftmark were sworn to House Targaryen, as were the Celtigars of Claw Isle. From Massey's Hook came Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point and Lord Massey of Stonedance, both sworn to Storm's End, but with closer ties to Dragonstone.

post-conquest

Quote

This he showed for the first time at the Aegonfort, the crude wood-and-earth castle he had raised atop what was henceforth and forever known as Aegon's High Hill. Having taken a dozen castles and secured the mouth of the Blackwater Rush on both sides of the river, he commanded the lords he had defeated to attend him. There they laid their swords at his feet, and Aegon raised them up and confirmed them in their lands and titles. To his oldest supporters he gave new honors. Daemon Velaryon, Lord of the Tides, was made master of ships, in command of the royal fleet. Triston Massey, Lord of Stonedance, was named master of laws, Crispian Celtigar master of coin. And Orys Baratheon he proclaimed to be "my shield, my stalwart, my strong right hand." Thus Baratheon is reckoned by the maesters the first King's Hand.

The Princess and the Queen

Quote

A dozen lesser lords, bannermen and vassals to Dragonstone, sat at the black council as well: Celtigar of Claw Isle, Staunton of Rook’s Rest, Massey of Stonedance, Bar Emmon of Sharp Point, and Darklyn of Duskendale amongst them. 

asearchoficeandfire.com is your friend.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, corbon said:

Probably this from the Mystery Knight

This from tWoIaF, pre-conquest

post-conquest

The Princess and the Queen

asearchoficeandfire.com is your friend.

Well, but this confirms, in the end, that the Masseys are vassals of Dragonstone, no? During the Dance the Masseys were bannermen of Dragonstone. In TMK we don't really have a ruling Prince of Dragonstone as such, with Prince Rhaegel, the nominal Prince of Dragonstone at the time, being a madman prancing naked through the halls of the Red Keep, not through the halls of the citadel of Dragonstone.

I know they are Targaryen bannermen, the question is what the source/justification is that they are listed as bannermen of KL rather than Dragonstone.

[corbon]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, but this confirms, in the end, that the Masseys are vassals of Dragonstone, no? During the Dance the Masseys were bannermen of Dragonstone. In TMK we don't really have a ruling Prince of Dragonstone as such, with Prince Rhaegel, the nominal Prince of Dragonstone at the time, being a madman prancing naked through the halls of the Red Keep, not through the halls of the citadel of Dragonstone.

I know they are Targaryen bannermen, the question is what the source/justification is that they are listed as bannermen of KL rather than Dragonstone.

Well, I guess the Mystery Knight quote says they are from the royal demenses around KL and technically Stonedance appears to be within the Crownlands of KL.

The other quotes show that before the Targaryens they were sworn to Storms End but had closer ties to Dragonstone, after seem to be aligned mostly to Dragonstone as you suggest.
Note that Dragonstone itself is part of the crownlands. 

I'd suggest that perhaps for large (but not all) parts of the Targaryen reign alignment with Dragonstone was alignment with KL.

Lastly, its a wiki.
It can't be said to be entirely wrong, as per TMK.

[Nittanian]

14 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What's the source for the claim from the wiki and the citadel that the Masseys of Stonedance are sworn to KL rather than Dragonstone?

Intuitively I'd have said the Masseys would be bannermen of Dragonstone, not KL. After all, like the Bar Emmons the Masseys were Targaryen men even before the Conquest despite the fact that nominally they were sworn to Storm's End.

The Guardians of Order RPG (2005) lists the Bar Emmons, Celtigars, Masseys, and Velaryons as bannermen of Dragonstone, while the Blounts, Brunes, Chelsteds, Farrings, Hayfords, Kettleblacks, Rosbys, Rykkers, Stokeworths, and Slynts are connected with King's Landing. 

The Green Ronin RPG (2009), on the other hand, associates the Bar Emmons, Celtigars, Sunglasses, and Velaryons with Dragonstone,. The book has the Blackfyres, Blounts, Boggs, Brunes, Buckwells, Byrches, Bywaters, Cargylls, Caves, Chelsteds, Chytterings, Crabs, Cresseys, Darklyns, Edgertons, Farrings, Follards, Gaunts, Hardys, Hartes, Hayfords, Hoggs, Hollards, Kettleblacks, Langwards, Mallerys, Mannings, Masseys, Pyles, Pynes, Rambtons, Rollingfords, Rosbys, Rykkers, Stauntons, Stokeworths, Thornes, and Wendwaters grouped with the capital. 

 

edit: The RPG books aren't canon, but some info may have been relayed by Ran. 

Edited February 21, 2020 by Nittanian

[Lord Varys]

To give a little bit of context here, I and some other board members thought it cool to draw up a preliminary fan-made appendix for TWoW (in part because the one we got for ADwD was less than perfect) which could be used as a basis where then only the new characters from TWoW would have to be included.

This led me to consider including crucial Crownlands houses into the 'The Boy King' section of the appendix since it is to be expected that as action and conflict move ever closer to KL we'll get more and more Crownland people showing up. We can, for instance, expect the Crackclaw Point folk side with a Targaryen pretender (likely Aegon in TWoW but possibly also Daenerys later down the road). And with Dragonstone now again being in the hands of the administration of King Tommen (thanks to Loras' successful campaign back in AFfC) I thought it only proper to finally list some of the Dragonstonian folks as well who have been absent from the appendices of both AFfC and ADwD.

Doing research about that and taking a look at many of Stannis' sworn swords it strikes me as odd that there should be so many KL-sworn Crownlanders among them. And this is especially curious with the Masseys. All the mainland/KL-sworn Crownlanders in camp Stannis must have gone to Dragonstone with him back when he left court after Jon Arryn's death. The men he won from Renly were Stormlanders and Reach men, not Crownlanders. And in ACoK it is pretty clear that insofar as lords and knights are concerned Stannis is down to essentially the men sworn to Dragonstone directly.

There is some leeway, I think, that a household knight and sworn sword here and there from the KL-Crownlands entered his service while he lived at court, but it is odd that the bulk of his men should be men from a region he never had any jurisdiction over.

One can, of course, omit many of the families of the people who might not even proper noble houses, and we also do know that younger sons and cousins have to make a living elsewhere (like Robar Royce) but I think the Masseys, as a house that really rose to prominence in ADwD, TWoIaF, and FaB, is going to feature in TWoW in some capacity.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Doing research about that and taking a look at many of Stannis' sworn swords it strikes me as odd that there should be so many KL-sworn Crownlanders among them. And this is especially curious with the Masseys. All the mainland/KL-sworn Crownlanders in camp Stannis must have gone to Dragonstone with him back when he left court after Jon Arryn's death. The men he won from Renly were Stormlanders and Reach men, not Crownlanders. And in ACoK it is pretty clear that insofar as lords and knights are concerned Stannis is down to essentially the men sworn to Dragonstone directly.

Couldn't some of them have left with Renly when he left court & Stannis won them after Renlys death? Or is it stated that it was only Stormlanders & Reach men with Renly?

[Alexis-something-Rose]

3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Doing research about that and taking a look at many of Stannis' sworn swords it strikes me as odd that there should be so many KL-sworn Crownlanders among them. And this is especially curious with the Masseys. All the mainland/KL-sworn Crownlanders in camp Stannis must have gone to Dragonstone with him back when he left court after Jon Arryn's death. The men he won from Renly were Stormlanders and Reach men, not Crownlanders. And in ACoK it is pretty clear that insofar as lords and knights are concerned Stannis is down to essentially the men sworn to Dragonstone directly.

Was Justin Massey the Lord of Stonedance, though? We're told he lost his lands when he joined Stannis, but no one insofar (as far as I remember) has called him Lord Justin like they do with the other lords in his service. No one was calling Beric Dondarrion "ser" even after he lost his lands and titles. There are a bunch of rebel lords that are still called "lord" and unless something happened with House Massey, as far as we know they're not a House of landed knights.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Alexis-something-Rose

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Couldn't some of them have left with Renly when he left court & Stannis won them after Renlys death? Or is it stated that it was only Stormlanders & Reach men with Renly?

No, that's not stated, but men like Horpe, Massey, Suggs, Farring, Penny, Peasebury, Fell, etc, seem to have been rather stalwart followers of Stannis, not opportunists. I mean, Massey and Horpe were the men who dragged Stannis to the ships when the Blackwater was lost. They were men pretty close to him. Also, those men are all fervent queen's men, suggesting that they needed to spend some time with Selyse and Melisandre on Dragonstone.

It is also kind of weird that those queen's men are all Crownlanders and Stormlanders, and all those Florent that supposedly dominated Stannis' court after the Blackwater are nowhere to be found. As things stand in ADwD Axell Florent seems to be the last Florent around.

1 hour ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

Was Justin Massey the Lord of Stonedance, though? We're told he lost his lands when he joined Stannis, but no one insofar (as far as I remember) has called him Lord Justin like they do with the other lords in his service. No one was calling Beric Dondarrion "ser" even after he lost his lands and titles. There are a bunch of rebel lords that are still called "lord" and unless something happened with House Massey, as far as we know they're not a House of landed knights.

No, Justin doesn't seem to be the Lord of Stonedance. If he was, they would have called him 'Lord Justin', not 'Ser Justin', because that's what he would be for Stannis' people (they also call him 'King Stannis' and not 'Lord Stannis' ;-)). He might be some landed knight on Massey's Hook.

[Alexis-something-Rose]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

No, Justin doesn't seem to be the Lord of Stonedance. If he was, they would have called him 'Lord Justin', not 'Ser Justin', because that's what he would be for Stannis' people (they also call him 'King Stannis' and not 'Lord Stannis' ;-)). He might be some landed knight on Massey's Hook.

In that case, perhaps House Massey and the actual lord of Stonedance have nothing to do with Stannis. Maybe they remain sworn to King's Landing. We know Justin squired for Robert, so there is a history there between him and at least one Baratheon. We know Justin was eyeing Winterfell as his seat and when that fell through, he started cozying up to Asha. Plus unlike a bunch of lords that are marching with Stannis, he doesn't seem to have his own retinue. He doesn't even seem to have a squire. 

[Lady Anna]

From Jon VI, ADWD:

"No, my lord." Clydas thrust the parchment forward. It was tightly rolled and sealed, with a button of hard pink wax. Only the Dreadfort uses pink sealing wax (...).

Ramsay Bolton, Lord of the Hornwood, it read, in a huge, spiky hand. The brown ink came away in flakes when Jon brushed it with his thumb. Beneath Bolton's signature, Lord Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own marks and seals. A cruder hand had drawn the giant of House Umber. "Might we know what it says, my lord?" asked Iron Emmett.

Jon saw no reason not to tell him. "Moat Cailin is taken. The flayed corpses of the ironmen have been nailed to posts along the kingsroad. Roose Bolton summons all leal lords to Barrowton, to affirm their loyalty to the Iron Throne and celebrate his son's wedding to …"

I thought this was a typo in my book but apparetly not. Shouldn't it be ''Lady Dustin''? Do you think this was the author's mistake or Jon thinking it's Lord Dustin, or....?

[Narsil4]

5 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

Do you think this was the author's mistake or Jon thinking it's Lord Dustin, or....?

If it's a forgery, it would seem to suggest the person writing the letter thinks Lord Dustin is still alive or is unaware of his death in 283. 

While being aware of House Cerwyn's change of leadership in 299.

So certainly odd if not a mistake. 

[Alexis-something-Rose]

8 hours ago, Lady Anna said:

I thought this was a typo in my book but apparetly not. Shouldn't it be ''Lady Dustin''? Do you think this was the author's mistake or Jon thinking it's Lord Dustin, or....?

It's an error. Asha receives a similar letter to the one Jon receives and hers is signed by "Lady Dustin."

"Ramsay Bolton, Lord of Winterfell, he signs himself. But there are other names as well." Lady Dustin, Lady Cerwyn, and four Ryswells had appended their own signatures beneath his. Beside them was drawn a crude giant, the mark of some Umber. (The Wayward Bride, ADwD 26)

Same signatories, Dustin, Cerwyn, four Ryswells, the Umber giant.

 

[Megorova]

I have a question, it's not exactly about the books, more like it's about a level of genetical relationships in the series.

I have a theory that Larra Rogare and Serenei of Lys was the same person. If my theory is correct then it means that Shiera Seastar was not only Aegon's daughter, but she was also his half-sister, because the two of them had the same mother - Larra/Serenei.

Thru her father, Aegon, Shiera was half-sister to Daeron II Targaryen, Daemon I Blackfyre, Bloodraven and his sisters, Bittersteel, Viserys Plumm, three Otherys siblings, possibly also Ambrose Butterwell, and others.

So my question is - does it mean that Aegon, by being Shiera's half-brother, was also a half-brother of his own children, all of them? Yes? No?

[Ran]

I think this theory is wildly wrong. Just saying.

But for the sake of argument and accepting the premise as true, in the scenario you outline Aegon would not be a half-brother to his other bastards. He would be what is called a cross-sibling. This is not a term we see used in Westeros, and it's rarely enough used in real life, but it does exist. Cross-siblings are the group of people who have half-siblings that chain together into a larger group -- half-sibling A may be related to half-sibling B but not half-Sibling C, half-sibling C is related to half-sibling B however, so A and C are cross-siblings. So half-brother Aegon is not half-brother to anyone but Shiera, but because she is half-sibling to the other Great Bastards, he is now their cross-sibling.

Again, I think the theory is wrong. But that seems to be the terminology.

Edited February 23, 2020 by Ran

[Loose Bolt]

Dothraki do not produce anything and their main business seems to be selling "protection".

Who produces arakhs for Dothraki?

Where weapons of D are made?

[The hairy bear]

19 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Dothraki do not produce anything and their main business seems to be selling "protection".

Who produces arakhs for Dothraki?

Where weapons of D are made?

 

Drogo's khalasar is said to number 100 thousand men, of which 40 thousand are Dothraki warriors and the rest are "woman, children, and slaves". I imagine that among those slaves there must be a few that work as smiths for the Dothraki, following the khalasar with some kind of portable forge.

 

 

[The_Watcher_On_The_Walls]

During the great ranging, the rangers of the watch stop at Craster’s for a night on their way north. 

Inside the main hall, Mormont asks Craster about the missing rangers.  Craster says he doesn’t recall seeing Benjen but remembers Gared, Will and Waymar Royce. 

The interesting thing was that Craster also knew about Gared being beheaded for his desertion. The question is how could Craster know that?

- Did Benjen tell Craster, meaning he is lying about seeing him? If so, why?

- Did Craster go south at some point during the GOT timeline and return?

- Did someone else visit him?

- Am I overthinking it and GRRM just wanted to remind the reader?

[kissdbyfire]

1 minute ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

Did Benjen tell Craster, meaning he is lying about seeing him?

Yes.

1 minute ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

If so, why?

Coz he killed him and “sausaged” him. 

@sweetsunray has a good essay on it. 

[Ser Leftwich]

6 minutes ago, The_Watcher_On_The_Walls said:

- Did Craster go south at some point during the GOT timeline and return?

- Did someone else visit him?

- Am I overthinking it and GRRM just wanted to remind the reader?

Craster may have asked where Gared was, as he was not with the Great Ranging. Gared would have interacted with Craster a lot of the last 40 years of Gared being in the NW. Perhaps Craster thought of Gared as a friend.

News always travels faster than the party in a JRPG, err, in a fantasy novel, err....

Probably overthinking it, but I have not read the 'Benjen is sausage' theory.