Small Questions v. 10106

[Mourning Star]

On 1/20/2021 at 9:40 AM, Megorova said:

I think that Salladhor Saan is working for Varys and Blackfyres. They needed to weaken fAegon's possible rivals, such as Lannisters, Baratheons (Stannis and Renly), and Starks. It was Littlefinger's plan that clashed them all against each other, though Varys/Blackfyres desided to wrung out of it maximum advantage for themselves. In my opinion, amongst Renly's and Stannis' people there are many who are actually Varys' agents, and Salladhor is one of them. His ancestor, Samarro Saan, was one of Ninepenny Kings who supported Blackfyres during their Fifth Rebellion, in 260. It's likely that Salladhor is Samarro's son or a younger brother.

Those Myrish sellswords are also working for Varys. It seems that Taena of Myr is one of Varys' agents. Tyrion found Myrish wine in the cellar of Illyrio's mansion. Young Griff is fluent in the low dialect of Myr. "Davos Seaworth notices a threadbare Myrish carpet on the floor of Lord Godric Borrell’s hall in Breakwater.^[76] He also notices a Myrish carpet on the floor of Lord Wyman Manderly's secret room in the New Castle where he meets with Wyman and Robett Glover.^[77]" Could be that Godric and Wyman are also working for Varys.

This -> "Lord [Varys]] reveals to Tyrion that he became a eunuch while he was part of a mummer's company in Myr.^[58]"

and this -> "Myr is on the verge of war with Tyrosh and Lys.^[70] The Myrmen contract the Golden Company and are then rumored to be supporting Tyrosh against Lys,^[71] but the sellswords break their contract unexpectedly^[70] before hostilities begin.^[72]".

Seems that Varys could have a grudge against Myr, thus he influenced their internal politics, and while official government of Myr is in confrontation with Lys and Tyrosh, some Myrmen are actually Blackfyre supporters and they work for Varys. Those Myrish sellswords that were hired by Stannis, actually were/still are working for Varys.

If both Salladhor (and thus his ships also) and those Myrish sellswords are indeed Varys' agents, than this -> "During the Battle of the Blackwater, many of Stannis's Myrmen land on the southern shore of the Blackwater Rush.^[67]" was not an accident, they didn't rejoined the fight later, because they weren't going to, even if Tyrion wouldn't have used a wildfire. In the original plan they also had an escape window -> "The fleet is organized into ten battle lines composed of twenty ships each. The first three lines are made up of war galleys belonging to the royal navy and the lords of the narrow sea. Behind them sails the smaller Myrish contingent, who are to land troops to attack the city, before joining the first three lines in battle." If the battle went according to Stannis' original plan, then most likely those Myrmen would have separated from main forces and then would have escaped from the battlefield. So when the main fleet got burned by wildfire, they intentionally sailed away and landed far away from the main battle, and that way didn't wasted their forces on fighting in Stannis' battle. They set him up and then escaped. Later they will resurface somewhere alongside with Golden Company and Salladhor's ships.

"However, when most of his fleet is destroyed by storms, Salladhor loses heart off the Three Sisters and decides to abandon Stannis, sick of waiting for payment from the king. He refuses to take Davos to White Harbor but does not throw him overboard as he threatened. Davos is set ashore on Sweetsister by rowboat.^[14] Sallador then goes on to the Stepstones to engage in piracy.^[14]" <- That's what he said, that majority of his ships were destroyed by storms and that he is going to Stepstones to engage in piracy. Though all that could be a lie. Did Davos himself saw how those ships sunk? If not, then Salladhor lied to him, and he went to Stepstones to join Golden Company, not to become a pirate.

Thus those Myrish sellswords from the very beginning were only pretending that they are working for Stannis, while actually they were working for Varys (same as Tyrells during Robert's Rebellion, who supposedly were Targaryen-loyalists, but actually did nothing to save Aerys or to help Rhaegar). They were there but did nothing, their actual contribution into Stannis' battles amounted to zero.

Maybe.

I'll do you one better... Sallador Saan is Illyrio Mopatis in disguise and has been the whole time!

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

On 1/22/2021 at 6:43 PM, Mourning Star said:

I'll do you one better... Sallador Saan is Illyrio Mopatis in disguise and has been the whole time!

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen.

[TheLastWolf]

5 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen.

... who is Gerion 

Spoiler

 

[Lady_Qohor]

16 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

... who is Gerion 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

...who is Arthur Dayne

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

5 hours ago, Lady_Qohor said:

...who is Arthur Dayne

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen who is Gerion who is Arthur Dayne who is Mance Rayder.
 

[CamiloRP]

38 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen who is Gerion who is Arthur Dayne who is Mance Rayder.
 

The problem here is that Jaqen is actually Aegon VI but he's not Young Griff, it is known.

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

9 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The problem here is that Jaqen is actually Aegon VI but he's not Young Griff, it is known.

This is the way. 

[TheLastWolf]

58 minutes ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen who is Gerion who is Arthur Dayne who is Mance Rayder.
 

 

19 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

The problem here is that Jaqen is actually Aegon VI but he's not Young Griff, it is known.

We are reaching new lofty peaks of insanity 

[Lilac & Gooseberries]

11 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

We are reaching new lofty peaks of insanity 

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio, who is Jaqen, who is Gerion, who is Arthur Dayne, who is Mance Rayder, who is Aegon VI but he's not Young Griff and who is Jon Snow's father. I have spoken.
 

[TheLastWolf]

Just now, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio, who is Jaqen, who is Gerion, who is Arthur Dayne, who is Mance Rayder, who is Aegon VI but he's not Young Griff and who is Jon Snow's father. I have spoken.
 

[Crona]

For this quote by GRRM:

Q: Dany remembers a lemon tree outside the house with the red door in  Braavos but citrus trees shouldn’t really grow in Braavos’ cold, foggy, climate.  Is this discrepancy significant?  Does it point to a future revelation about Dany’s past?  Thank you so much.

A:  Very perceptive of you.

Yes it does point to ... well, that would be telling.

the screenshot of the message doesn’t show the date, does anyone know the date of this quote?

[Loose Bolt]

Who was overlord of "first Frey"? We know that he lived about 600 years ago, but we do not know which house gave him that piece of land and permission to build that bridge. Or did he just build his bridge and took over that land without asking permission from anybody?

[The Wondering Wolf]

2 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

Who was overlord of "first Frey"? We know that he lived about 600 years ago, but we do not know which house gave him that piece of land and permission to build that bridge. Or did he just build his bridge and took over that land without asking permission from anybody?

600 years ago the riverlands were under the rule of the Durrandon kings. I can see a Stormking trying to promote some guys who would be grateful and loyal in return.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

13 hours ago, The Wondering Wolf said:

600 years ago the riverlands were under the rule of the Durrandon kings. I can see a Stormking trying to promote some guys who would be grateful and loyal in return.

@Loose Bolt This. I suspect that the initial Frey lands once belonged to Seagard, taken after rebel king Petyr Mallister was put down by the Durrandons. Also, that the Storm Kings supported the early Freys logistically (perhaps even monetarily) with spanning the Green Fork, thereby making it easier to move forces in the northern Riverlands from east to west (e.g. against ironborn or westermen invasion) & vice versa (e.g. against raiding northmen or Vale wildlings in winter). (And against any future rebel lords & even hinder their movements, too.)

The Freys would be a loyal buffer against the Mallisters, Charltons, Vyprens, etc (the latter two, interestingly, supporting Harwyn Hoare against Arrec Durrandon); owing their very existence & position to Storm's End, while a share of their toll collections could/would help fund the garrisons & campaigns of the Storm Kings in the Riverlands.

[Mourning Star]

On 1/27/2021 at 5:05 PM, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

I will do one better Sallador Saan is Illyrio who is Jaqen.

You laugh, but Jaqen being Syrio takes no real stretch of the imagination, and we know Varys was Rugen, so as you look at Salla and Illyrio, try to keep an open mind.

When Davos is saved, following the Battle of the Blackwater, he is brought to Salladhor Saan:

Quote

Salladhor Saan was not aboard his Valyrian. They found him at another quay a quarter mile distant, down in the hold of a big-bellied Pentoshi cog named Bountiful Harvest, counting cargo with two eunuchs. One held a lantern, the other a wax tablet and stylus. "Thirty-seven, thirty-eight, thirty-nine," the old rogue was saying when Davos and the captain came down the hatch. Today he wore a wine-colored tunic and high boots of bleached white leather inlaid with silver scrollwork. Pulling the stopper from a jar, he sniffed, sneezed, and said, "A coarse grind, and of the second quality, my nose declares. The bill of lading is saying forty-three jars. Where have the others gotten to, I am wondering? These Pentoshi, do they think I am not counting?" When he saw Davos he stopped suddenly. "Is it pepper stinging my eyes, or tears? Is this the knight of the onions who stands before me? No, how can it be, my dear friend Davos died on the burning river, all agree. Why has he come to haunt me?"
A Storm of Swords - Davos II

Salla is oddly taking stock of the ship's hold (along side eunuchs, much like Illyrio often is, in fact, are these Illyrio's Eunuchs?).

The Bountiful Harvest is Illyrio's ship:

Quote

"Illyrio Mopatis. A whale with whiskers, I am telling you truly. These chairs were built to his measure, though he is seldom bestirring himself from Pentos to sit in them. A fat man always sits comfortably, I am thinking, for he takes his pillow with him wherever he goes."
"How is it you come by a Pentoshi ship?" asked Davos. "Have you gone pirate again, my lord?" He set his empty cup aside.
"Vile calumny. Who has suffered more from pirates than Salladhor Saan? I ask only what is due me. Much gold is owed, oh yes, but I am not without reason, so in place of coin I have taken a handsome parchment, very crisp. It bears the name and seal of Lord Alester Florent, the Hand of the King. I am made Lord of Blackwater Bay, and no vessel may be crossing my lordly waters without my lordly leave, no. And when these outlaws are trying to steal past me in the night to avoid my lawful duties and customs, why, they are no better than smugglers, so I am well within my rights to seize them." The old pirate laughed. "I cut off no man's fingers, though. What good are bits of fingers? The ships I am taking, the cargoes, a few ransoms, nothing unreasonable." He gave Davos a sharp look. "You are unwell, my friend. That cough . . . and so thin, I am seeing your bones through your skin. And yet I am not seeing your little bag of fingerbones . . ."

A Storm of Swords - Davos II

Salla claims to have captured the ship which was trying to avoid his "duties and customs".

But, if this is the case, then why is he complaining about the manifest and Pentoshi thinking he is not counting? If he captured the ship there is no reason for the Pentoshi to be thinking of him at all, since they wouldn't know he captured it!

I'm suggesting that this is a sham, and that Salladhor Saan is Illyrio Mopatis. He is checking the cargo against the manifest because the cargo is his!

The Bountiful Harvest is even seemingly equipped to transport Illyrio himself, with giant seats for just that purpose.

A fat man sits comfortably wherever he goes, taking a pillow with him, perhaps literally when he's just pretending to be so morbidly obese!

Quote

"Regal," Magister Illyrio said, stepping through an archway. He moved with surprising delicacy for such a massive man. Beneath loose garments of flame-colored silk, rolls of fat jiggled as he walked. Gemstones glittered on every finger, and his man had oiled his forked yellow beard until it shone like real gold.

A Game of Thrones - Daenerys I

Then there is the timing. While they are obviously never seen together, their appearances on page are remarkably aligned.

Illyrio is in Essos with Dany at the story's start, then Arya sees him in King's Landing speaking to Varys (disguised as Rugen). They talk about how Stannis has fled beyond Varys's reach. Then we meet Salladhor Saan at the inn of the faceless gargoyle for the first time on Dragonstone. Salladhor serves Stannis without being paid (despite being a pirate), manages to keep his fleet safe during the battle of the Blackwater, continues serving Stannis when he decides to go to the Wall (its hard to see how he saw any profit in that, but easy to see how depositing Stannis and his army in the North works for Illyrio's benefit), and then finally abandons his cause dropping Davos off at the Fingers. Meanwhile, Tyrion is packed and shipped across the Narrow Sea, likely experiencing the same storms as Saan and Davos, and arrives in Pentos where Illyrio returns to the page. It's entirly possible that Illyrio/Salla was the one to pick up Tyrion in King's Landing after dropping off Davos.

Salladhor Saan the pirate is a perfect alternate identity for Illyrio Mopatis the cheese monger. Just consider how we see shipping insurance working in Arya's chapters in Braavos. In that case, the insurance broker cheats the beneficiaries by not paying them when a ship has sunk. But, there is another way to cheat at this game. A man like Illyrio might insure his ship, then capture it as Salla, retaining the ship and cashing in on the insurance.

Then there is Serra... who I would suggest was Serra Saan, and where Illyrio gained the Salladhor identity.

Quote

 

"A maiden? I know the way of that." Illyrio thrust his right hand up his left sleeve and drew out a silver locket. Inside was a painted likeness of a woman with big blue eyes and pale golden hair streaked by silver. "Serra. I found her in a Lysene pillow house and brought her home to warm my bed, but in the end I wed her. Me, whose first wife had been a cousin of the Prince of Pentos. The palace gates were closed to me thereafter, but I did not care. The price was small enough, for Serra."

A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion II

 

Illyrio's first wife was a cousin of the Prince of Pentos, but I would argue that the palace gates closed not because Serra was lowborn or a slave (there are technically no slaves in Pentos). Instead, I believe it was because she was the only daughter of Samarro Saan, the Last Valyrian, one of the band of nine who fought in the war of the Nine Penny Kings on the side of Maelys Blackfyre. I would argue that the male lines of both the Blackfyres and Saans lines likely ended, and that Illyrio was barred from the palace because the Saans are a notorious pirate family.

There are some other great details and connections worth noting, but this is already a bit long for a response to a joke as it is.

 

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mourning Star

[Megorova]

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

I'm suggesting that this is a sham, and that Salladhor Saan is Illyrio Mopatis. He is checking the cargo against the manifest because the cargo is his!

Or because Salladhor is one of Varys' agents, and thus Salla and Illyrio are working together, and the ship is really Illyrio's, and Salla didn't captured it, the ship was sent to him by Illyrio, as a payment for Salla's servises to Blackfyres.

[Mourning Star]

5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Or because Salladhor is one of Varys' agents, and thus Salla and Illyrio are working together, and the ship is really Illyrio's, and Salla didn't captured it, the ship was sent to him by Illyrio, as a payment for Salla's servises to Blackfyres.

It is possible, but odd to me that Illyrio would give away the ship he himself uses with the seats made to his enormous proportions.

Despite what Salla says, we have seen Illyrio leave Pentos more than once in the series, including sailing across the Narrow Sea.

Edited February 1, 2021 by Mourning Star

[Ephraim'sFruit]

Does the Iron Bank issue note/paper currency to clients?

Surely they arent still loading up boats with the literal amount of gold that they lend out?? Or are they?

[Back in Black-Snow]

I assume they just have a note from the IB saying they are good for whatever debt they incurr.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

On 2/20/2021 at 2:37 PM, Ephraim'sFruit said:

Does the Iron Bank issue note/paper currency to clients?

Surely they arent still loading up boats with the literal amount of gold that they lend out?? Or are they?

Paper currency has thus far not been described.

We have seen examples of people signing contracts promising money to be paid at a later point in time (eg Tyrion for the Second Sons).

The method the Brotherhood without Banners uses, shows that the smallfolk have no use for such promises on paper, though. Assuming the smallfolk of Essos feel the same way, if the Iron Bank does not pay out in actual coins, the client will still not be able to use it.

Perhaps, where the loan concerns a really large amount, the Iron Bank does not pay everything out at once. Possibly, we'll learn more about it in Winds