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Small Questions v. 10106


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13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe this should be it’s own thread, but since Tysha really was a common girl who married Tyrion, does that mean that his marriage to Sansa is fraudulent? Because in this case, Tyrion’s first marriage would have been real, as well as consummated. Even if Tywin “annulled” it, he technically wouldn’t be able to.

technically yes. Tysha was still Tyrion's wife since only high septon can annul marriages in this world. but Tysha and Tyrion's marriage was problematic on its own. if I remember correctly there were no witnesses in their wedding, only a drunken septon whereas Tyrion and Sansa had a wedding party and everything . and even if we take their marriage as valid, Sansa's marriage to Tyrion won't be affected because there is no proof for the first marriage ( I hardly think a westerland septon , Jaimie or the lost bride say anything)

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17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Maybe this should be it’s own thread, but since Tysha really was a common girl who married Tyrion, does that mean that his marriage to Sansa is fraudulent? 

Perhaps. Aegon the dragon never cared about semantics though

17 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Because in this case, Tyrion’s first marriage would have been real, as well as consummated. Even if Tywin “annulled” it, he technically wouldn’t be able to.

Word

17 hours ago, Tucu said:

Tywin got the "septons" to undo the marriage:

Tywin gets septons to say all sorts of crazy shit

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The High Septon stepped forward. "Your Grace, the gods hold bethrothal solemn, but your father, King Robert of blessed memory, made this pact before the Starks of Winterfell had revealed their falseness. Their crimes against the realm have freed you from any promise you might have made. So far as the Faith is concerned, there is no valid marriage contract 'twixt you and Sansa Stark."

 

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

if I remember correctly there were no witnesses in their wedding, only a drunken septon

There were witnesses,  kinda.

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"The first time I wed, there was us and a drunken septon, and some pigs to bear witness. We ate one of our witnesses at our wedding feast.

 

12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Methinks this will be important later. 

Speaking of Tyrion and multiple spouses, his spouse wants to get married too, maybe Petyr will create a fTysh to tell the story?

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52 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Tywin gets septons to say all sorts of crazy shit

Tywin and every king and great lord since Jaehaerys I (until Cersei). Will it be any different if Tyrion comes home with Dany?

Edited by Tucu
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4 hours ago, Tucu said:

Tywin and every king and great lord since Jaehaerys I (until Cersei). 

For sure

4 hours ago, Tucu said:

 Will it be any different if Tyrion comes home with Dany?

Ima go with no. Like I said, Aegon the dragon got the septons to look the other way, so all Tyrion has to do is become the most powerful person ever and the septons should fall in line.

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18 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Is there any indication as to the order of events with Saera's Scandal and the death of Alyssa Targaryen? Both took place in 84, but it's unclear when exactly it happened in relation to each other.

Alyssa died in late 284, after her 24th birthday, and Saera's scandal has occured in early 284, in spring.

"The 83rd year after Aegon’s Conquest is remembered as the year of the Fourth Dornish War…"

"Jaehaerys Targaryen and his sons Aemon and Baelon had been waiting as well, and as Morion’s fleet beat its way across the Sea of Dorne, the dragons Vermithor, Caraxes, and Vhagar fell on them from out of the clouds. "

"The Fourth Dornish War was fought and won in a single day. "

"Prince Baelon had another cause for celebration as well. His wife, Alyssa, was again with child. This time, he told his brother Aemon, he was praying for a girl.

Princess Alyssa was brought to bed again in 84 AC. After a long and difficult labor, she gave Prince Baelon a third son, a boy they named Aegon, after the Conqueror."

"One of Saera’s japes was their undoing. On a warm spring night in 84 AC, shouts and screams from a brothel called the Blue Pearl drew the notice of two men of the City Watch."

"It was not to be. Alyssa Targaryen had a warrior’s heart in a woman’s body, and her strength failed her. She never fully recovered from Aegon’s birth, and died within the year at only four-and-twenty. Nor did Prince Aegon long survive her. He perished half a year later, still shy of his first nameday. "

"Late that year, 60 AC, she was delivered of her fifth child, a daughter she named Alyssa after her mother."

Aegon died in 85. His mother, Alyssa, died 6 months earlier. She was born in late 60, so she died in late 284, past her 24th birthday.

It's not clear when exactly did Alyssa gave birth to her last child - already after Saera's escape, or before it. Though it's definite that Alyssa died already after Saera left.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hello there!

Does anyone have any theory about what house (or maybe who) is the Unnamed nobleman, descendant of Lord Gaemon Targaryen by way of a younger daughter who wed a petty lord, part of the Great Council of 101 AC?

The fact that his claim was passed over due to being a minor cousin, nine generations removed from the main branch, means that they believed in his history or that was the reason they gave him, just to shut him down quickly?

Also, George wrote this specific part to reinforce the tale of the dragonseeds, later on in the Dance of the Dragons? Or there are other meaning or development that we shall see in the future?

I have searched around in the forum but the only thing I could find was this post by Lord Varys:
 

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/153401-if-joffrey-had-black-hair-and-was-roberts-son-would-anything-have-changed/&do=findComment&comment=8313262

 

Quote

Many Velaryons are reminiscent of the dragonlords of old, but certainly not all of them. A Velaryon with as striking Valyrian features as Daenaera Velaryon seems to be a very rare occurrence, just as not all Targaryens are blessed with such looks - although certainly more than the Velaryons. But in Daenaera's case I've also speculated that the Hartes may have been that obscure family that claims descent from Gaemon the Glorious' younger daughter, explaining why the blood of the dragon did run so strong in Daenaera. The Hartes may have previously intermarried with cadet branches of House Velaryon or Celtigar, too, of course, but that idea has something to it, I'd think.


Thanks in advance!

PS: 2014 was the last time I posted in the forum, I know I lost a lot of content and discussions here, probably someone posted something. Sorry about that

Edited by TGR
I clearly do not know how to turn the link into quote
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16 hours ago, TGR said:

Does anyone have any theory

I think that it could have been the father of Leowyn and Corwyn Corbrays.

Because:

Gaemon's daughter - 1 her son / Aerys Targaryen (they were from the same generation), 2 Daemion, 3 Aerion, 4 Aegon I, 5 Aenys I, 6 Jaehaerys I, 7 Aemon, 8 Rhaenys, 9 Laena Velaryon - Rhaena Targaryen's mother, and Rhaena married with Corwyn Corbray.

If Corwyn was from the same generation as Rhaena, then his father was from the same generation as Rhaena's mother - Laena Velaryon, and Laena was from the 9th generation after Gaemon's daughter.

Also the name of Corwyn's father isn't known, which fits with "Unnamed nobleman".

Also, if Corbrays were distant relatives of the Targaryens, then it explains their involvement into their family affairs, such as "Ser Corwyn brought Lady Daenaera Velaryon forward at the Maiden's Day Ball when Baela and Rhaena put her forward as a potential second wife for the king. Favoring the young Daenaera, the king did indeed wed her.[7]

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7 hours ago, Megorova said:

Also, if Corbrays were distant relatives of the Targaryens, then it explains their involvement into their family affairs, such as "Ser Corwyn brought Lady Daenaera Velaryon forward at the Maiden's Day Ball when Baela and Rhaena put her forward as a potential second wife for the king. Favoring the young Daenaera, the king did indeed wed her.[7]

This is a good one... But I wonder if the Corbrays were that important to be considered marriage material to Gaemon the Glorious daughter? They were in the Vale, under Royce and Arryn. Maybe an alliance of some sorts? But Why?

At the same time, Archmaester Gyldayn tells the story of Queen Rhaenys arranging a marriage between some Corbray Lord and a Tarly girl. So they were not that unknown or forgettable.

If the Unnamed nobleman was from House Corbray, why didn't Gyldayn wrote "a member of House Corbray"? They were somewhat known...

The first time I read about the Great Council of 101AC in Fire and Blood, I thought about House Scales. But King Jaehaerys knew Ser Elyas Scales and probably his descendants. Maybe the founder of Scales is a bastard from the Targaryens, like Orys Baratheon? Maybe that is the only reason the council at least heard them? But again, why not mention a "nobleman from House Scales"? And if they were a cousin house, why Gyldayn did not wrote that Ser Elyas was a distant cousin of Jaehaerys? He writes so many details about a lot of things...

I also thought about House Rambton, just because they were mentioned in Dragonstone in Clash. But they seem a really minor house, just like the Cassels. So I wonder if Gaemon would marry his daughter to a really minor house lord... Maybe? Would a Stark Lord marry his daughter to a Cassel, for example?

Edited by TGR
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18 hours ago, TGR said:

But I wonder if the Corbrays were that important to be considered marriage material to Gaemon the Glorious daughter? They were in the Vale, under Royce and Arryn. Maybe an alliance of some sorts? But Why?

I have a theory (it's part 16 of the Swan Song, link is in my signature) that Azor Ahai had five wives - the first wife gave birth to 40 sons (in parallel to 40 sons of Hugor of the Hill - the First King of the Andals), and they were the founders of the 40 Valyrian Great Houses; the second wife's son founded House Hightower; the third wife's son founded House Corbray; the fourth wife's (Nissa Nissa's) son founded House Dayne; and the fifth wife's son founded House Swann.

So the founder of House Corbray and the founder of House Targaryen were half-brothers. Maybe. At least I think so.

The founder of House Baratheon was Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half-brother. Them being half-siblings was enough to create a multiple-generations-long bond between Baratheons and Targaryens. And the founder of House Corbray was not a bastard half-sibling of the first Targaryen, instead they were legitimate siblings. So their bond was stronger than the bond between Aegon's and Orys' descendants. The only difference is that we don't know about those marriages that possibly have occured in the past between Corbrays and their Valyrian relatives. Besides that one between the Corbray and Gaemon the Glorious' daughter. Maybe.

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3 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

Gods, I feel bad for the wife that gave birth to 40 sons. But that also means said woman spent a fairly large amount of her life pregnant.....

I’m not particularly partial to @Megorova’s theories, but considering how heavily biblical parts of it get, I wonder if something like the tribe of Joseph might make more sense for the Valyrian houses? The tribes of Israel are descended from the twelve sons of Jacob by his two wives and two concubines. By some counts, there are actually thirteen tribes because his youngest son, Joseph, had two sons and each of them because the head of a tribe. It would save poor wife #1 a lot of problems if she had, say, 4 sons, and each one had ten sons. Or maybe five sons who had eight kids each, or six sons with five kids?

idk but I’ve been thinking about that poor woman’s womb since I read swan song and grandchildren found Valyria is the only solution I could think of to save her the pain lmao

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8 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

idk but I’ve been thinking about that poor woman’s womb since I read swan song and grandchildren found Valyria is the only solution I could think of to save her the pain lmao

ADWD, Tyrion II - "Another passage from The Seven-Pointed Star came back to him. “The Maid brought him forth a girl as supple as a willow with eyes like deep blue pools, and Hugor declared that he would have her for his bride. So the Mother made her fertile, and the Crone foretold that she would bear the king four-and-forty mighty sons. The Warrior gave strength to their arms, whilst the Smith wrought for each a suit of iron plates."

It appears that on Planetos in the ancient past people had long lifespans, each of them lived for centuries or maybe even for thousands of years.

Quote

In the beginning, the priestly scribes of Yin declare, all the land between the Bones and the freezing desert called the Grey Waste, from the Shivering Sea to the Jade Sea (including even the great and holy isle of Leng), formed a single realm ruled by the God-on-Earth, the only begotten son of the Lion of Night and Maiden-Made-of-Light, who traveled about his domains in a palanquin carved from a single pearl and carried by a hundred queens, his wives. For ten thousand years the Great Empire of the Dawn flourished in peace and plenty under the God-on-Earth, until at last he ascended to the stars to join his forebears.

Dominion over mankind then passed to his eldest son, who was known as the Pearl Emperor and ruled for a thousand years. The Jade Emperor, the Tourmaline Emperor, the Onyx Emperor, the Topaz Emperor, and the Opal Emperor followed in turn, each reigning for centuries … yet every reign was shorter and more troubled than the one preceding it - TWOIAF, Yi Ti.

Same as it was in the Bible:

Quote

Bible, Genesis:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.

and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.

11 and all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years: and he died.

14 and all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.

17 and all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.

So each next generation of God-on-Earth's descendants had shorter lifespan than their ancestors. Though those first people - those that had lived during and after the First Long Night, and during the Age of Heroes, - each of them lived for several centuries.

God-on-Earth - (his son) Pearl Emperor - Jade Emperor - Tourmaline - Onyx - Topaz - Opal - Amethyst Empress, (her brother - Bloodstone Emperor) - (her son) Azor Ahai.

If God-on-Earth lived on Planetos for 10.000 years, and each of his next descendants had lived less, then could be that the Pearl Emperor had lived for 9.000 years, Jade for 8, Tourmaline for 7, Onyx for 6, Topaz for 5, Opal for 4, Amethyst for 3, and thus Azor Ahai possibly was ~2.000 years old when he died.

Considering that during the First Long Night to forge Lightbringer Azor Ahai sacrificed Nissa Nissa, who was his fourth wife, it seems likely that by that time Azor's first 43 sons (the last of which was Nissa's) were already born. It's likely that by the time of the First Long Night's beginning Azor was already over a 1.000 years old, and his first wife - the mother of proto-Valyrians, was also several centuries old, and so were her children, each of whom already had their own wife and children and grandchildren and so on. And thus when Azor's family migrated from Asshai thru Valyria and to Westeros, it wasn't just Azor, his 44 sons and 4 wives (minus Nissa), instead it was 44 tribes, 40 of which then settled at Valyria, and the last 4 kept going to Westeros, where they founded House Hightower, Corbray, Dayne and Swann. It wasn't just the first Lord Hightower and his half-siblings - the first Lord Corbray, first Lord Dayne and the first Lord Swann. Instead it was several dozens of Hightowers, Corbrays, Daynes and Swanns - not only the first Lords and their wives, but also their children, and grandchildren, and great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren, and so on (because their lifespan was several hundreds years long), and their servants and other members of their household - they were migrating en masse, same as Targaryens did prior the Doom.

So Azor's first wife was living for ~2.000 years (same as Azor), and she was giving birth to one child, for example, every 5-10 years, so she was done with childbirth after 200-400 years of her life, in span of which she gave birth to those 40 sons, who later founded 40 Valyrian Great Houses. That woman, compared to Queen Alysanne

(who had lived for 64 years and was birthing childen from when she was aged 16 years old and until she was aged 44 - in total 28 years of her life (13 children), which is a bit less than half of her lifespan or 43,75%),

had spent considerably lesser amount of her time on reproduction. She was done with childbearing in 10 or 20% of her life's duration. If each of her 40 sons were born in span of a singular pregnancy, then she has spent ~1600 weeks/30 years or merely 1,5% of her lifetime being pregnant. Queen Alysanne was pregnant ~520 weeks/9,97 years or 15,57% out of her lifetime being pregnant.

Azor's wife 1,5% VS Queen Alysanne 15,57%. That's ten times worse. Or in other words the mother of Valyrians had it ten times better than Alysanne. And you pitty her and not Alysanne, or Queen Rhaella who had lived for only 39 years and was pregnant 11 times. I don't know about Rhaella's three miscarriages, though amongst her other pregnancies one ended two months premature and the remaining 7 were fulltermed, thus she was pregnant 312 weeks/5,98 years or 15,33% out of her lifetime. Which is again 10 times worse than the situation with Azor's wife. So she was not a poor woman, despite giving birth to 40 babies. Her situation was 10 times better than Alysanne's or Rhaella's. You're pitying the wrong woman.

And let's not forget about Hugor's wife - she also gave birth to 44 sons. <- that's actually why I figured out that Azor Ahai also possibly had 44 sons, though unlike Hugor, he had more than one wife, instead he had five, which is a parallel fo the Fiery Hand of R'hllor - five fingers / five wives. And there was 40 Valyrian dragonlords, and Valyria looks like a downturned thumb, and thumb is the first finger, thus the mother of 40 Valyrians was Azor Ahai's first wife and she was a parallel to Hugor's wife, in a sense that she also was made fertile by the Mother (one of the Seven Gods, that possibly were aliens and not deities, same as the God-on-Earth, who was also a visitor from another planet). Logical, isn't it? ^_^

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2 hours ago, StarksInTheNorth said:

Is there any explicit textual evidence that Lyanna was 14 at the tourney of Harrenhal?

No, there is no textual evidence. In the books. I don't know about the App.

The only specific thing that was said about Lyanna's age is this - AGOT, Ned I - "Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness." <- at the time of her death, in late 283 AC, she was 16. So it seems that readers just assumed that in 281, at the time of that tournament, which was held approximately 2 years prior to Lyanna's death, Lyanna was two years younger, and thus 14.

Though if you are open for theoretising, I have more precise estimates concerning Lyanna's age.

In my opinion Lyanna was Sagittarius, because there was two clues in ADWD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sagittarius_(astrology)

On the pictures Sagittarius looks like a Centaur - half-horse half-human. And it was said in the books about Lyanna - 1. ADWD, chapter 41 - "Brandon was fostered at Barrowton with old Lord Dustin, the father of the one I’d later wed, but he spent most of his time riding the Rills. He loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two."

2. "and Roose Bolton states that Lyanna was "half a horse herself".[20] "

Sagittariuses are born thru November 22 - December 21.

In my opinion the tournament at Harrenhal was held in late October and thru early November. Specifically the day when Lyanna entered the lists as the Knight of the Laughting Tree, was October 31st - Halloween. Tournament lasted 10 days, seven of which were dedicated to jousting. The mystery knight had appeared mid tourney. So it was on the fifth day of the tournament, which then places the tournament in October 27 - November 5.

Jon was born (maybe) on the day of autumnal equinox (it's a day when the duration of nighttime and daylight is equal, and after this day each next day becomes shorter and each next night becomes longer) - on September 23, 283. Thus Lyanna died aged 16, in 283, shortly prior her 17th birthday. And she and Rhaegar got married as soon as she turned 16 years old, in December of 282. Which makes perfect sense, because then as a sixteen years old adult, Lyanna didn't needed her father's agreement for her wedding with whomever she wanted to marry. This places Lyanna's birth in November 22 - December 21 of 266 AC, which means that at the time of the Harrenhal's tournament, Lyanna was 14 years old. Though later that same year she had turned 15, 1-2 months after the tournament.

Edited by Megorova
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In Fire and Blood, Archmaester Gyldayn writes that Dreamfyre was at Harrenhal when Rhaena died, in 73AC, but later made her lair in the Dragonpit.

But how did that happen? Did she just flew herself to King's Landing? It seems unlikely...

Can a dragonrider "herd" an untamed dragon to any place? Flying Vermithor and Silverwing close by Dreamfyre would led her with them?

Or maybe Jaehaerys sent Dragonkeepers to Harrenhal and kept them there, until someone (Helaena, later on) claim the dragon? 

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On 10/23/2021 at 12:24 PM, Megorova said:

I have a theory (it's part 16 of the Swan Song, link is in my signature) that Azor Ahai had five wives - the first wife gave birth to 40 sons (in parallel to 40 sons of Hugor of the Hill - the First King of the Andals), and they were the founders of the 40 Valyrian Great Houses; the second wife's son founded House Hightower; the third wife's son founded House Corbray; the fourth wife's (Nissa Nissa's) son founded House Dayne; and the fifth wife's son founded House Swann.

So the founder of House Corbray and the founder of House Targaryen were half-brothers. Maybe. At least I think so.

By the way, I did check most of your 16 parts of the Swan Song, it is really interesting. But it seems that I am not able to follow every point and make the connections that you make. I totally get that House Hightower and House Dayne may be proto-valyrians (influenced by the theories and discussions made in History of Westeros and The Mythical Astronomy of Ice and Fire podcasts) but Corbrays and Swanns I just don't get it.

Anyway, back to Dreamfyre question!

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