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Rhaenys_Targaryen
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What do we know about Jaime and Tywin during the Greyjoy Rebellion? Catelyn calls them "seasoned battle commanders" in AGoT and I'm wondering whether they might have gained some fame on the isles.

TWoIaF says that Tywin, like Ned, was on Robert's side during the landings (Pyke, Great Wyk, Harlaw, Orkmont) and they cut across the isles with steel and fire. Barristan led the attack on Old Wyk, so Robert may have let the KG to lead troops.

Myrcella was born in 289/290 and Tommen 290/291 AC, but given that Robert was away to war and nobody put together two and two, that should not prevent Jaime from also having taken part in the invasion... though Victarion at least apparently did not meet him, as he would give half his teeth for a chance to fight Jaime or Loras.

Is there more information than that?

Edited by Ivan Tsarevich
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On 12/23/2021 at 4:59 AM, Ivan Tsarevich said:

Is there more information than that?

Well, for Tywin he apparently fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Aside from that, and the Greyjoy Rebellion, Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion and the War of the Five Kings, there's nothing else. 

As for Jaime, I honestly don't know. Besides tourneys, and the Wot5K. 

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On 12/24/2021 at 8:21 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Well, for Tywin he apparently fought in the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Aside from that, and the Greyjoy Rebellion, Reyne/Tarbeck rebellion and the War of the Five Kings, there's nothing else. 

As for Jaime, I honestly don't know. Besides tourneys, and the Wot5K.

Yeah, I am after something during the Greyjoy Rebellion specifically, other than the attack on the Lannister fleet and what I already said. Thanks for bringing up the Ninepenny Kings though - it might go well with another quote, where Robb mentions that Tywin has fought many battles.

Edited by Ivan Tsarevich
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1 hour ago, Ivan Tsarevich said:

where Robb mentions that Tywin has fought many battles.

TWOIAF, House Lannister under the Dragons:

"The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands, but each time the conflicts flared up once again as soon as the king’s men had taken their leave. When His Grace perished in the tragedy at Summerhall in 259 AC, matters in the west deteriorated even further, for the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, lacked his sire’s strength of will and was besides soon embroiled in the War of the Ninepenny Kings."

Not all battles were part of some big war. There were all sorts of small skirmishes and uprisings on local level in various regions of the 7K. Like there were many battles and conflicts between Northmen and the Wildlings, there were also multiple smallscale conflicts between Westerlanders and Ironborn, Westerlanders and the Reachmen, Westerlanders and the other Westerlanders. So that's when Tywin gained most of his battle experience - in those smaller conflicts.

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2 hours ago, Megorova said:

TWOIAF, House Lannister under the Dragons:

"The years that followed were as dismal as any in the long history of the westerlands. Conditions in the west grew so bad that the Iron Throne felt compelled to take a hand. Thrice King Aegon V sent forth his knights to restore order to the westerlands, but each time the conflicts flared up once again as soon as the king’s men had taken their leave. When His Grace perished in the tragedy at Summerhall in 259 AC, matters in the west deteriorated even further, for the new king, Jaehaerys II Targaryen, lacked his sire’s strength of will and was besides soon embroiled in the War of the Ninepenny Kings."

Hmm-m. That semi-canon sample mentions a score of private wars, as well as broken men (along with outlaws and robber knights) plaguing the land... and those guys don't come from nowhere. So yes, in absence of contrary evidence, there seems to have been serious fighting. The thing is, Tywin was sent to court after Genna's betrothal, and was only knighted in the eve of the Ninepenny Kings' war (Kevan on the other hand squired for the Red Lion). Still, I'm not aware of anything which would prevent Tywin from being a part of Egg's expeditions... he might've squired for Dunk for all I know.

2 hours ago, Megorova said:

Not all battles were part of some big war. There were all sorts of small skirmishes and uprisings on local level in various regions of the 7K. Like there were many battles and conflicts between Northmen and the Wildlings, there were also multiple smallscale conflicts between Westerlanders and Ironborn, Westerlanders and the Reachmen, Westerlanders and the other Westerlanders. So that's when Tywin gained most of his battle experience - in those smaller conflicts.

This is the quote I was referring to. (AGoT Catelyn VIII.)

Robb drew a map across the table, a ragged piece of old leather covered with lines of faded paint. One end curled up from being rolled; he weighed it down with his dagger. "Both plans have virtues, but . . . look, if we try to swing around Lord Tywin's host, we take the risk of being caught between him and the Kingslayer, and if we attack him . . . by all reports, he has more men than I do, and a lot more armored horse. The Greatjon says that won't matter if we catch him with his breeches down, but it seems to me that a man who has fought as many battles as Tywin Lannister won't be so easily surprised."

I don't know about you, but my original inclination was to think larger-scale actions.

Either way, reading the world book, it seems like the experience from the Ninepenny Kings' war might have legs. Tygett is mentioned to have killed a man in "his first battle", and Tywin is described as "hardened by battle" afterwards.

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On 12/28/2021 at 10:46 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

How come Rhaegar married Elia? Was it ever explained? I remember Elia and Oberyn were off searching for spouses and Aerys spurned Tywin's attempts in grounds of him being his "servant" but how come these two came to marry?

Because Elia was 1/16 Targaryen, and there was no other unwed female anywhere in the 7K with the dragonblood purer than that.

It seems that King Daeron II's sister - Daenerys Targaryen, who married with Maron Martell, was a grandmother of a Kingsguard Lewyn Martell and his older sister, who was the rulling Princess of Dorne and the mother of Doran, Elia and Oberyn. So Elia was Daenerys' great-granddaughter, and thus she was Rhaegar's some sort of cousin.

Princess Daenerys was King Daeron's younger sister, though there was big age difference between them. So she was close in age to her nephews - Baelor Breakspear (born in 170) and Maekar I (174-178). Her own children could have been close in age to Aerion Brighflame, maester Aemon, Aegon V, or could have been born even past 200 AC (which is the year of Egg's birth). Daenerys was born in 172, and there were female characters in ASOIAF who gave birth to their last children, when they were aged 44, 45, and even 47 years old. Daenerys was aged 47 in 219 AC. Aegon V's children were born - Duncan in 220-224, Jaehaerys 225, Shaera 226, Daeron 228, Rhaelle 229-233. So it's likely that some of Daenerys' children were close in age to Jaehaerys and Shaera, just a few years older than them. Thus her grandchildren could have been close in age to Aerys and Rhaella, a few years older than them, and Lewyn Martell and his sister (Elia's mother) were those grandchildren. If that is the case, then Daenerys' children were King Maekar's first cousins, Lewyn Martell with his older sister were second cousins of King Aegon V, Elia and her siblings were third cousins to King [Edit: Jaehaerys and Queen Shaera, and third cousins once removed to Aerys and Rhaella.

So Rhaegar and Elia were third cousins twice removed]. That's why they married - because she was a dragonseed with Targaryen blood. When Steffon Baratheon died on his mission to Volantis, where he was supposed to find a pureblooded dragonseed bride for Rhaegar, there was no other choice left aside from Rhaegar marrying with Elia. The other "Targaryens by blood" were either already married, or they were not "Targaryen-enough".

For example, there was Mina Tyrell - a daughter of Olenna Redwyne, whose mother, in my opinion, was Calla Blackfyre. Calla was 1/2 Targaryen, with both of her paternal grandparents being Targaryens - Aegon IV and Daena the Defiant. So Olenna was 1/4 Targ, and Mina was 1/8 Targ. Maybe Aerys didn't approved Mina as Rhaegar's bride because by 280 AC Mina was either already married, or she was too young to marry. There was also Ashara Dayne (a descendant of Princess Rhaena Targaryen and Garmund Hightower, who had six daughters that married with members of House Hightower, Dayne, Tyrell, Tully, Arryn, and Dondarrion), though she was too young for Rhaegar. Apparently Malora Hightower was dismissed as bride-candidate because she was supposedly crazy. Her next sister - Alerie Hightower, was already married by the time when Rhaegar was looking for a bride. Denyse probably also was married, and the next two sisters - Alysanne and Lynesse, were too young. In House Tully - Cat was already engaged, and Lysa was too young. There was no girls in that generation of House Arryn, same with the Dondarrions. Lyanna Stark, who was also partially Targaryen (thru her great-grandmother - Melantha Blackwood - a granddaughter of Aegon IV, thru his bastard-daughter - Mya Rivers) was already engaged with Robert Baratheon. So Elia Martell was the only available option.

Edited by Megorova
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does anyone know why Elia didn't marry until Rhaegar entered the picture? she and Oberyn were on their spouse search tour in 273 when she was 16 but she wasn't betrothed to Rhaegar until 279... 6 years is a long period in Westeros... we can assume that Oberyn didn't want to marry (and being a man meant he didn't have the youth clock on him) but why didn't Elia? I mean.. it's hard to believe the only dornish princess available who was good enough for a crown prince had shortage of suiters! not to mention , GRRM found it important to address why Arianne Martell and Laena Velarion were still single at the ages of 24 and 22 but not 22 year-old Elia?

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1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

does anyone know why Elia didn't marry until Rhaegar entered the picture? she and Oberyn were on their spouse search tour in 273 when she was 16 but she wasn't betrothed to Rhaegar until 279... 6 years is a long period in Westeros... we can assume that Oberyn didn't want to marry (and being a man meant he didn't have the youth clock on him) but why didn't Elia? I mean.. it's hard to believe the only dornish princess available who was good enough for a crown prince had shortage of suiters! not to mention , GRRM found it important to address why Arianne Martell and Laena Velarion were still single at the ages of 24 and 22 but not 22 year-old Elia?

I assume that most houses in Dorne knew about her health issues. Or how fragile Elia's health was and did not want to gamble with a possibility that her pregnancy would kill her. But very interesting question is why Aerys II ignored that fact about her poor health.

Edited by Loose Bolt
Aerys not Aegon (:
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18 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that most houses in Dorne knew about her health issues. Or how fragile Elia's health was and did not want to gamble with a possibility that her pregnancy would kill her. But very interesting question is why Aerys II ignored that fact about her poor health.

see..that's the problem. Targs had childbirth crisis on their own . if Elia's health issues were that visible that no one wanted her as a wife , why would the Targaryens ignore that?

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25 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

see..that's the problem. Targs had childbirth crisis on their own . if Elia's health issues were that visible that no one wanted her as a wife , why would the Targaryens ignore that?

Political connections, possibly? Aerys might've thought that if he gave the Martell's a marriage opportunity, they would've supported him against Tywin and the Lannisters. Besides that, I don't know. 

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On 12/30/2021 at 12:42 AM, EggBlue said:

does anyone know why Elia didn't marry until Rhaegar entered the picture? she and Oberyn were on their spouse search tour in 273 when she was 16 but she wasn't betrothed to Rhaegar until 279... 6 years is a long period in Westeros... we can assume that Oberyn didn't want to marry (and being a man meant he didn't have the youth clock on him) but why didn't Elia?

Look at the list of her suitors - "Amongst the places they visited were Starfall, the Arbor, Oldtown, the Shield Islands, Crakehall, and finally Casterly Rock."

At Starfall and Oldtown they visited Daynes and Hightowers, who in my opinion were descendants of Rhaena Targaryen's daughters. At Arbor they visited the Redwynes. The wife of Runceford Redwyne (Olenna Tyrell's mother) in my opinion was Calla Blackfyre - a granddaughter of Aegon IV. So Elia's suitors were a Dayne, a Hightower, and a Redwyne - partial dragonseeds. And the other three locations they visited in vacational purposes. Maybe Oberyn wanted to see those places. Elia's suitors were partially Targaryens, same as was Elia herself. She was Daenerys Targaryen's great-great-granddaughter. So Elia's mother was looking for her a spouse with the dragon blood. The same thing were doing Rhaegar's parents. That's why they finally settled to marry Elia and Rhaegar, when they failed to find better candidates.

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5 minutes ago, Megorova said:

@Ran When was created Westeros.org, the year and the exact month?

Thank you.

We registered the domain on December 8, 1999, but it was some months before the site launched there. Here's the earliest iteration that Archive.org has, on September 19th, and there I see that we officially launched the website on August 10, 2000. 

That said, before that, we had a website on Xoom.com which was the basic origin of Westeros.org. That site was being run at least from September of 1999, but I couldn't tell you when it was a launched -- Archive.org didn't capture it.

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On 1/3/2022 at 11:18 AM, Ran said:

We registered the domain on December 8, 1999, but it was some months before the site launched there. Here's the earliest iteration that Archive.org has, on September 19th, and there I see that we officially launched the website on August 10, 2000. 

That said, before that, we had a website on Xoom.com which was the basic origin of Westeros.org. That site was being run at least from September of 1999, but I couldn't tell you when it was a launched -- Archive.org didn't capture it.

Thank you for you work and bringing us all together btw!

 

Totally miss your old theory videos and general discussions

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3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

@Ran Was Jon supposed to have Stark features but violet eyes

Jon has grey eyes.

3 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Also, can Mr. Martin say Eddard “Ned” Stark has, for a fact, sired six children?

You'd have to ask George, but certaily agree that Ned was father to six children.

@AlaskanSandman

Thanks! We'll get to them again, some day. In fact, literally just unpacked a brand new Canon EOS R6 camera after having hemmed and hawed for ages.... Almost everything else we've done was shot on an old Canon Rebel t4i, which is nearly ten years old now.

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Jon has grey eyes.

You'd have to ask George, but certaily agree that Ned was father to six children.

@AlaskanSandman

Thanks! We'll get to them again, some day. In fact, literally just unpacked a brand new Canon EOS R6 camera after having hemmed and hawed for ages.... Almost everything else we've done was shot on an old Canon Rebel t4i, which is nearly ten years old now.

I thought it would be fun to discuss one of your old theories so I just posted it. Thank you again and greatly enjoy your videos, forum, and work in general with TWOIAF and all!

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