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Small Questions v. 10106

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2 hours ago, Thomaerys Velaryon said:

The appendix in ADWD states that the ruler of Godsgrace is Lady Delonne Allyrion, so who is this Lord of Godsgrace ?

Is it a mistake on George's part ? Is he her husband ? Did Delonne die off page during the span of ADWD and Ser Ryon Allyrion, Delonne's son and heir, became the new Lord of Godsgrace ?

I don't know if George has ever clarified how the husbands of ruling ladies in Dorne are called. Are they called "Lord", "Consort" or something else ?

 

@Ran, perhaps you can clarify this?

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13 hours ago, Ckram said:

Have you guys already took this in consideration? (honest question)

Yes, but that's not really GRRM talking; it's Maester Yandel, so I didn't think it was what Lynn was looking for.

There is also this passage from the canon that basically says the same stuff:

Quote

With Dawn he tapped him on the shoulder; the pale blade was so sharp that even that light touch cut through Jaime's tunic, so he bled anew.

Since this is Jaime's direct personal observation, and confirms the other info, I think we can assume Dawn is indeed very sharp and too pale to remind anyone of traditional Valyrian steel.

Also helpful is the fact that the ripples in Valyrian steel come from folding the steel during forging:

Quote

 

Only one metal could be beaten so thin and still have strength enough to fight with, and there was no mistaking those ripples, the mark of steel that has been folded back on itself many thousands of times. "Valyrian steel?"

"Yes," Lord Tywin said, in a tone of deep satisfaction.

 

Since Dawn is never described as having such ripples, I think we can at least conclude it was forged in a fundamentally different way than any of the Valyrian steel we've ever encountered in canon, or that the Lannisters have ever heard of. 

I think the odds are very good Dawn is just simply not Valyrian steel.  If it's far older than Valyria itself, I wouldn't be surprised.

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Posted (edited)

@Ran Where is Raventree Hall located? We have contradicting information on it; Jaime’s travel in AFFC as well as Kevan informing Tyrion in AGOT and things related to Robb’s army suggest it being on the southern and eastern side of the Red Fork whereas the app show it to the North of the RF. Which one is the  correct location GRRM intended for it?

Edited by Corvo the Crow

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I checked the references and I'm not seeing anything contradictory.  Can you be more explicit?

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I'm considering making a post about this, but how exactly did Aemon the Dragonknight survive in that cage in Dorne for so long? We're told that Baelor was in King's Landing when his brother died, which would mean that news would have to travel from Dorne to King's Landing, Baelor would have to make a barefoot trek to Dorne to negotiate with the Martells, then he would have to travel to where Aemon was being held captive. This would presumably take several months. For that period of time, Aemon was being held in a cage over a viper pit in the desert without any clothing. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the Dornish weren't feeding him either.

The only reason why I'm asking about this here instead of on the general page is because I'm not sure if this is one of those "don't overthink it" situations where there isn't actually a logical explanation. Did I miss something here? 

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34 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

For that period of time, Aemon was being held in a cage over a viper pit in the desert without any clothing. I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that the Dornish weren't feeding him either.

First of all, he wasn't hanging above viper's pit all that time. They placed him there, only by the time of Baelor's second visit, and at the time of his first visit, there was no pit and no snakes, ony a cage. Also, most likely, they did gave him food and water. Just a bit of it, but enough to keep him barely alive. Could be that between Baelor's visits, they kept Aemon in a dungeon, and took him out of it, shortly prior Baelor's arrival, otherwise there's no way, that he would have survived all those months in a desert, under the scorching sun. If both times the cage was in the same place, then to dig a pit for vipers, those Dornismen would have had to take the cage away, and place it somewhere else, while they will be making a pit, and filling it with snakes. It's unlikely, that they had all those snakes at hand. Most likely, they needed some time to catch so many. Also, if those snakes were in that pit for significant amount of time, they would have also died, or escaped. Thus, the logical concusion, is that the cage with a prisoner was taken someplace else, in its place they made a pit, for months were capturing (or even raising from eggs) vipers, they were kept isolated (were prevented from escaping) and were fed, and a day or so prior Baelor's arrival, the pit was filled with snakes, and then the cage with Aemon was hanged above it.

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20 hours ago, Ran said:

I checked the references and I'm not seeing anything contradictory.  Can you be more explicit?

AGOT has Jaime leading one army along the river road while Tywin and Kevan lead another army from the south (gold road?) toward the kingsroad and Harrenhal.

Quote

"Tell me what you know of the fighting in the riverlands," she said. She had to learn if he was truly ready.

"Less than a fortnight past, they fought a battle in the hills below the Golden Tooth," Robb said. "Uncle Edmure had sent Lord Vance and Lord Piper to hold the pass, but the Kingslayer descended on them and put them to flight. Lord Vance was slain. The last word we had was that Lord Piper was falling back to join your brother and his other bannermen at Riverrun, with Jaime Lannister on his heels. That's not the worst of it, though. All the time they were battling in the pass, Lord Tywin was bringing a second Lannister army around from the south. It's said to be even larger than Jaime's host.

"Father must have known that, because he sent out some men to oppose them, under the king's own banner. He gave the command to some southron lordling, Lord Erik or Derik or something like that, but Ser Raymun Darry rode with him, and the letter said there were other knights as well, and a force of Father's own guardsmen. Only it was a trap. Lord Derik had no sooner crossed the Red Fork than the Lannisters fell upon him, the king's banner be damned, and Gregor Clegane took them in the rear as they tried to pull back across the Mummer's Ford. This Lord Derik and a few others may have escaped, no one is certain, but Ser Raymun was killed, and most of our men from Winterfell. Lord Tywin has closed off the kingsroad, it's said, and now he's marching north toward Harrenhal, burning as he goes." (AGOT Catelyn VIII)

After Jaime defeats Edmure, Tywin and Kevan begin subduing the castles of the river lords. Stone Hedge, Pinkmaiden, and Harrenhal are all south of the Red Fork.

Quote

"Your brother has been covering himself with glory," his father said. "He smashed the Lords Vance and Piper at the Golden Tooth, and met the massed power of the Tullys under the walls of Riverrun. The lords of the Trident have been put to rout. Ser Edmure Tully was taken captive, with many of his knights and bannermen. Lord Blackwood led a few survivors back to Riverrun, where Jaime has them under siege. The rest fled to their own strongholds."

"Your father and I have been marching on each in turn," Ser Kevan said. "With Lord Blackwood gone, Raventree fell at once, and Lady Whent yielded Harrenhal for want of men to defend it. Ser Gregor burnt out the Pipers and the Brackens …" (AGOT Tyrion VII)

Jaime attributes the devastation in Blackwood Vale to his father.

Quote

As Jaime Lannister and his escort wound through the rolling hills into the vale, little remained of the fields and farms and orchards that had once surrounded Raventree—only mud and ashes, and here and there the blackened shells of homes and mills. Weeds and thorns and nettles grew in that wasteland, but nothing that could be called a crop. Everywhere Jaime looked he saw his father's hand, even in the bones they sometimes glimpsed beside the road. Most were sheep bones, but there were horses too, and cattle, and now and again a human skull, or a headless skeleton with weeds poking up through its rib cage. (ADWD Jaime I)

AFFC and ADWD don't indicate a location for Raventree in the riverlands. The Journeys map from TLOIAF shows Jaime as traveling north from Riverrun (to Raventree) and then east toward the Blue Fork (to Pennytree). If that is correct, then either Tywin/Kevan detoured north to personally subdue Raventree before arriving at the crossroads inn, or Tywin/Kevan remained south of the Red Fork and had smaller Lannister detachments travel north and capture Raventree in their name. 

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Posted (edited)

Decided to double check things from past discussions with George and Anne over various projects. The only super-explicit thing we have from George is that in 2004he  imagined that Stone Hedge and Raventree were on opposite sides of the Red Fork. Map positioning has followed that. As you say, the evidence for Stone Hedge being south of the Red Fork is very strong, whereas Raventree Hall is more circumstancial, and its unique situation as being largely denuded of defenders (as well as its lord) may have made it a very easy thing for Tywin to grab with just a small detachment  crossing the river, as you say. 

Edited by Ran

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Posted (edited)

Anybody know of any good theories regarding Rego Draz's "small household idol like unto a woman great with child, with swollen breasts and a bat's head?"

Edited by Lost Melnibonean

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On 8/8/2019 at 2:26 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Anybody know of any good theories regarding Rego Draz's "small household idol like unto a woman great with child, with swollen breasts and a bat's head?"

Not a theory, but maybe keep in mind that there's a lot of crossover between snakes/bats/dragons in the series. Bran thinks the dragon vision from Winterfell as a snake with wings. Rhaego was described as having been born with bat wings. Sansa was described as a wolf with bat wings when she and Tyrion were clearly symbolic Targs (or not so symbolic depending on your views of A+J=T) at the Purple Wedding with Tyrion in red and black and Sansa in silver and purple with stones from Asshai. Harrenhal was burned by dragons but is now inhabited by giant bats. Bran sees giant bat skeletons in the caves, but the dragon stuff going on there is fairly screaming so I'm not so sure at all that he isn't seeing small dragon skeletons.

ADWD Daenerys VIII

The dragons craned their necks around, gazing at them with burning eyes. Viserion had shattered one chain and melted the others. He clung to the roof of the pit like some huge white bat, his claws dug deep into the burnt and crumbling bricks. Rhaegal, still chained, was gnawing on the carcass of a bull. The bones on the floor of the pit were deeper than the last time she had been down here, and the walls and floors were black and grey, more ash than brick. They would not hold much longer … but behind them was only earth and stone. Can dragons tunnel through rock, like the firewyrms of old Valyria? She hoped not.

 

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On 8/7/2019 at 7:15 PM, Ran said:

I checked the references and I'm not seeing anything contradictory.  Can you be more explicit?

Sorry for responding a bit late and @Nittanian has covered most of it but there’s more to it

These are the lands that Jonos Bracken wants

Quote

Lord Jonos drained the last of his ale and tossed the horn aside. "What of the lands and castles we were promised?"

"What lands were these?"

"The east bank of the Widow's Wash, from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow, and all the islands in the stream. Grindcorn Mill and Lord's Mill, the ruins of Muddy Hall, the Ravishment, Battle Valley, Oldforge, the villages of Buckle, Blackbuckle, Cairns, and Claypool, and the market town at Mudgrave. Waspwood, Lorgen's Wood, Greenhill, and Barba's Teats. Missy's Teats, the Blackwoods call them, but they were Barba's first. Honeytree and all the hives. Here, I've marked them out if my lord would like a look." He rooted about on a table and produced a parchment map.

...

You'll get your lands. Some of them, at least. Since you partly subduedthe Blackwoods."

That seemed to satisfy Lord Jonos. "We will be content with whatever portion my lord thinks fair. If I may offer you some counsel, though, it does not serve to be too gentle with these Blackwoods. Treachery runs in their blood. Before the Andals came to Westeros, House Bracken ruled this river. We were kings and the Blackwoods were our vassals, but they betrayed us and usurped the crown.

Notice, he wants the  eastern bank of Widow’s Wash so there’s a west bank as well, meaning this stream, at least from Crossbow Ridge to Rutting Meadow, is mostly North to South, or the other way around, instead of East to West. Jonos also claims they ruled this river.

After subduing Blackwoods

Quote

 His men formed up and followed, banners streaming. Castle and camp were soon lost behind them, obscured by the dust of their hooves.

Neither outlaws nor wolves had troubled them on their way to Raventree, so Jaime decided to return by a different route. If the gods were good, he might stumble on the Blackfish, or lure Beric Dondarrion into an unwise attack.

They were following the Widow's Wash when they ran out of day. Jaime called his hostage forward and asked him where to find the nearest ford, and the boy led them there. As the column splashed across the shallow waters, the sun was setting behind a pair of grassy hills. "The Teats," said Hoster Blackwood.

...

For an instant, the deep red clouds that crowned the western hills reminded him of Rhaegar's children, all wrapped up in crimson cloaks.

They are following the Widow’s wash which was mentioned earlier. Jaime sees the sun going behind the teats so he is to the east of them and he confirms it in his thoughts as well. there is a ford near the teats so the teats are near the river as well. Since Jaime has not crossed the RF after leaving the Raventree, Teats and the tree are on the same side of RF and Stone Hedge seems to be as well, judging by the lands asked.

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Posted (edited)

Raventree and Stone Hedge can be on opposite sides of the river while their domain boundaries can extend across the river in both directions. They kind of have to, what with centuries of feuding and warfare.

So, nothing contradicting that they are on opposite sides of the river from the above quotes.

 

Edited by Ran

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In ACOK Big Walder is talking with Little Walder about the Frey line of succession. 

“Don’t be stupid,” his cousin said. “The sons of the first son come before the second son. Ser Ryman is next in line, and then Edwyn and Black Walder and Petyr Pimple. And then Aegon and all his sons.”
(Bran I, ACoK)

Who is Aegon? 

I know in line after Petyr was Aegon Frey (Jinglebell), but he doesn’t have any children. The only other Aegon Frey is Aegon Bloodborn, son of Aenys, also childless. So is this just an error on Martin’s part or am I missing something?

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1 hour ago, McGuv19 said:
Aegon and all his sons.”
(Bran I, ACoK)

Who is Aegon? 

At that time Aegon/Jinglebell was still alive, so it's likely, that what that Frey-cousin meant, was said with inclusion of a prospect for the future - next in line is Ryman and his sons, and after all of them - Jinglebell and all of his sons, in case, if in the future he will have (male) children.

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On 8/11/2019 at 9:39 PM, Ran said:

Raventree and Stone Hedge can be on opposite sides of the river while their domain boundaries can extend across the river in both directions. They kind of have to, what with centuries of feuding and warfare.

So, nothing contradicting that they are on opposite sides of the river from the above quotes.

 

It still strikes me as odd that Robb didn’t take Raventree Hall if it was north of RF or no one from Jaime’s host went there and sent a bird to Harrenhal and a rider to Riverrun, but what you say makes some sense.

Also two more questions; is old ser  Willum we hear of in the AGOT when Karyl, Vance and Darry ask Ned’s(Robert’s) permission to retaliate is actually Willem Darry?

Raymun Darry seems to own one of those towns judging from what he says and a mention of an old ser Willum when there was a ser Willem from house Darry which holds land there suggest these guys may be the same.

Is ser Wilbert the Knight of the Stoney Sept since it is asked if he caged the prisoners? Stoney Sept has a trout fountain, does the town belong to Tullys or at least owe it’s allegiance to them directly with Wilbert as a vassal?

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Raventree was taken back in ACoK. Robb not going after it  in AGoT when his goal was to relieve Riverrun before the Lannisters knew what was happening doesn't seem so strange.

 

 

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Quote

"Your brother has been the Lord of Storm's End these past thirteen years. These lords are his sworn bannermen—"

"His," Stannis broke in, "when by rights they should be mine. I never asked for Dragonstone. I never wanted it. I took it because Robert's enemies were here and he commanded me to root them out. I built his fleet and did his work, dutiful as a younger brother should be to an elder, as Renly should be to me. And what was Robert's thanks? He names me Lord of Dragonstone, and gives Storm's End and its incomes to Renly. Storm's End belonged to House Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne."

It was an old grievance, deeply felt, and never more so than now. Here was the heart of his lord's weakness; for Dragonstone, old and strong though it was, commanded the allegiance of only a handful of lesser lords, whose stony island holdings were too thinly peopled to yield up the men that Stannis needed. Even with the sellswords he had brought across the narrow sea from the Free Cities of Myr and Lys, the host camped outside his walls was far too small to bring down the power of House Lannister.

"Robert did you an injustice," Maester Cressen replied carefully, "yet he had sound reasons. Dragonstone had long been the seat of House Targaryen. He needed a man's strength to rule here, and Renly was but a child." (ACOK Prologue)

 

Quote

Grim places needed lightening, not solemnity, and Dragonstone was grim beyond a doubt, a lonely citadel in the wet waste surrounded by storm and salt, with the smoking shadow of the mountain at its back. A maester must go where he is sent, so Cressen had come here with his lord some twelve years past, and he had served, and served well. (ACOK Prologue)

So Robert takes the throne in 283, Stannis builds a new fleet and takes Dragonstone in 284, and Robert grants castles to his brothers in 286/287 (if ACOK begins in 299)?

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