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5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

FTFY. :P

Seriously now, I've read/listened to it a couple of times and don't remember anything about that. Will have to look it up, and chances are, by the time I'm done someone will have answered it already. But off the top of my head I'd say there is no more info on that or we would remember... Maybe? 

It's from "The Sons of the Dragon" chapter:

Quote

As the castle septon refused to officiate, Maegor and his new bride were wed in a Valyrian rite, 'by blood and fire.'

 

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It is mentioned in the books that as a king Robert was interested in anything else than ruling his kingdom, so all that governing had to be done by somebody else. My first choice as a person who made those decisions would be Jon Arryn but team Lannister, Varys and later Littlefinger would have tried to gain as much power as they could get. 

So I wonder how much power Jon Arryn really had?

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39 minutes ago, Loose Bolt said:

It is mentioned in the books that as a king Robert was interested in anything else than ruling his kingdom, so all that governing had to be done by somebody else. My first choice as a person who made those decisions would be Jon Arryn but team Lannister, Varys and later Littlefinger would have tried to gain as much power as they could get. 

So I wonder how much power Jon Arryn really had?

He would have, theoretically, all the power of the monarch when Robert is not sitting the Throne. In practice, he is likely constrained and influenced by the wishes of the other Small Council members. And of course Robert can intervene where he feels it necessary - which means if Cersei pressures him he could likely block a Jon Arryn decision, for example

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Ran said:

It's from "The Sons of the Dragon" chapter:

 

That's the one.  Is there anything about it, perhaps in the World Book?  My memory isn't the same as it used to be.  Sometimes I can't remember what I had for breakfast... or, if I had breakfast.

It seems an obscure reference, like the reference to the dragonlords of Valyria as sorcerer princes. 

There was also a curious reference to women who give up their unborn children in exchange for knowledge.  Which brought Mirri Maaz Duur and Danaerys to mind.

Edited by LynnS

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12 hours ago, LynnS said:

Maybe somewhere else, The World Book.  It seemed rather obscure.  No matter, just curious.

I think it's one of those mysteries about Valyria, alas. I can't find anything on that in the Valyria section of The World of Ice and Fire. Conceptually, you could theorise some rather cool ceremonies from that motif. :)

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10 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's the one.  Is there anything about it, perhaps in the World Book?  My memory isn't the same as it used to be.  Sometimes I can't remember what I had for breakfast... or, if I had breakfast.

It seems an obscure reference, like the reference to the dragonlords of Valyria as sorcerer princes. 

There was also a curious reference to women who give up their unborn children in exchange for knowledge.  Which brought Mirri Maaz Duur and Danaerys to mind.

Foreshadowing for when a polygamous Targaryen prince wants a new bride? 

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12 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

So I wonder how much power Jon Arryn really had?

I think it is wrong to assume that Robert just ignored his government and council and allowed Jon, as his Hand, to run things. That could have been a pretty effective government - sort of how Bloodraven was very effective under Aerys I, or Tywin was pretty effective while Aerys II was not interfering with his decisions all that much - but Robert's government was in no way as effective as either of these two.

Robert shows a lot of similarities with Trump, actually - he is too stupid/impatient/ignorant to actually deal with the details of government but he does know what he wants and, being king, he dictates what is to be done.

It is quite clear in AGoT, for instance, that Robert not attending the Small Council doesn't mean he has or exerts no power. Quite the contrary, in fact. He considers his advisers his little minions who have to execute what he decrees and not bother him with or include him in the details or consequences that accompany his royal decisions. Take the Tourney of the Hand as an example. The Small Council gets a royal command to arrange it, Ned, as Hand, does not like the idea, does not want the tourney, and says that he is going to talk to Robert about it. But his colleagues on the council know Robert better - they know that his decision is final and that there will be a tourney, no matter what Ned thinks or says. And they are right. We never learn how Ned and Robert's conversation about the tourney went, but it is obvious that it went nowhere ;-).

This is how we should see Jon Arryn's power, too. Jon likely was able to influence Robert in matters where he either didn't have an opinion yet or in areas he didn't give a damn about, or in crucial matters of state (his marriage, for instance), but he most definitely never controlled him or his policies. We can be pretty sure that neither Jon nor Stannis (once he was on the council) nor Littlefinger's predecessor(s) wanted to beggar the Crown, but that's what Robert did. One could also imagine that Jon Arryn didn't exactly consider it a great idea that Robert grant Dragonstone as an independent lordship to Stannis and Storm's End to Renly. That weakened House Baratheon as such and prevented Robert from granting those seats to his own children. And so on.

Cersei's entire influence at court would have gone through Robert considering that no Lannister or proper Lannister crony (Pycelle doesn't really count as a powerful courtier) had a prestigious position at court - yet we do know that Cersei wielded a lot of informal power. She knew how to handle Robert to get what she and House Lannister wanted.

1 minute ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Foreshadowing for when a polygamous Targaryen prince wants a new bride? 

I find that one rather as strong proof of the power of the Faith in the pre-Maegor/Jaehaerys era. Maegor was no king, unlike his father, and he was married to the High Septon's own niece (and a Hightower, at that). It makes sense that both Visenya and Prince Maegor are not able to find a septon to officiate at a polygamous marriage under those circumstances.

And considering that we actually do know that the septon of Dragonstone they must have asked would have been Septon Oswyck who we meet some time later in FaB in greater detail, this guy must have really had some stones.

But the thing also reflects in an interesting manner on King Aenys - the average septon may have been afraid of repercussions coming from the Starry Sept (like they later came to Murmison) - but Oswyck was a Targaryen man through and through, perfectly okay with Targaryen incest marriages (at least when they are commanded by the king), so it is more likely that he was loyal to Aenys here, refusing to allow Maegor a second wife without authorization from the king.

The idea that this kind of ceremony shows up again in later times is very unlikely (unless Dany were to find out that they still do marriages this way in Old Volantis) considering the Targaryens become rather meek and pious little Andals in the years of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne. They are not likely to still remember or maintain ancient (and actually quite heathen) Valyrian rites.

Aegon and his sisters may have wed the Valyrian way, but back before the Conquest the Faith seems to have had little influence on Dragonstone (although Oswyck certainly could have had a Dragonstonian predecessor who also had no issue with incestuous and polygamous unions, officiating at the wedding of Aegon and his sisters). In any case, Visenya and Aegon grew up in an era when the Targaryens would have been much closer to their Valyrian customs and origins. But those things seem to fade from living memory during the generation of Aegon's grandchildren. Alysanne and Jaehaerys read Valyrian scrolls during their days on Dragonstone, but their lives do not revolve around their Valyrian ancestors (the sole exception being when they look for obscure names for their many children ;-)).

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14 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Foreshadowing for when a polygamous Targaryen prince wants a new bride? 

Don't know.  Sorry.  Threatening to place a Targaryen princess in the meanest brothel in Kings Landing so she can be raped over and over again by peasants...  I'm doubtful about foreshadowing but very curious about references to sorcery since we've been told so little about it.

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21 minutes ago, 2uenten said:

Do you pronounce Yronwood as "Ironwood" or "Ronwood," (like a silent y)?

I use Ironwood (like the ironwood trees also in the story). 

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38 minutes ago, Nittanian said:

I use Ironwood (like the ironwood trees also in the story). 

Me too. In the audiobooks though Dotrice says “eeronwood”. 

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I also pronouce it Ironwood. But btw what about Yohn Royce which for some reason I pronounce John...?

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, 2uenten said:

Do you pronounce Yronwood as "Ironwood" or "Ronwood," (like a silent y)?

I also pronounce it Eeronwood. 

ETA I do know this is a play on Ironwood, as GRRM likes to play around with his spellings based on region and such. 

1 hour ago, Lady Anna said:

I also pronouce it Ironwood. But btw what about Yohn Royce which for some reason I pronounce John...?

I pronounce the ‘y’. Alarmist Almost like ‘yawn’, but more like ‘yohn’ with not so much of the ‘aw’ emphasis. Does that make any sense? :D

Edited by The Fattest Leech
What the hell autocorrect!

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Hi! Three short questions.

I have not yet read The Princess and the Queen, The Rogue Prince, or The Sons of the Dragon. Does anyone have an opinion on whether there is any value anymore in reading them in their standalone/abridged state? Or is it best just to sit down with Fire & Blood proper from cover to cover?

If the latter, what should be read first, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

Can anyone comment on the relationship/overlap between the A Game of Thrones RPG (2005) and The World of Ice & Fire?

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58 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

I also pronounce it Eeronwood. 

ETA I do know this is a play on Ironwood, as GRRM likes to play around with his spellings based on region and such. 

I pronounce the ‘y’. Alarmist Almost like ‘yawn’, but more like ‘yohn’ with not so much of the ‘aw’ emphasis. Does that make any sense? :D

Yes, like Yawn! I used to read it like that at first but then during re-reads I thought maybe it's supposed to be John :P idk

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4 hours ago, Falconer said:

Hi! Three short questions.

I have not yet read The Princess and the Queen, The Rogue Prince, or The Sons of the Dragon. Does anyone have an opinion on whether there is any value anymore in reading them in their standalone/abridged state? Or is it best just to sit down with Fire & Blood proper from cover to cover?

If the latter, what should be read first, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

Can anyone comment on the relationship/overlap between the A Game of Thrones RPG (2005) and The World of Ice & Fire?

On 2) Fire and Blood is the full text for each of those stories, and is better edited, covers the events in full detail etc. so far better just to read that. Any discrepancies between the novellas and F&B should be resolved by taking the word of the later text (that being F&B)

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8 hours ago, Falconer said:

If the latter, what should be read first, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

It depends on what you're looking for. TWOIAF is a great overview for both Westeros and the World beyond, while F&B takes a more in depth look at Westeros. I'd recommend F&B then TWOIAF, but it's mostly up to your personal preference.

12 hours ago, 2uenten said:

Do you pronounce Yronwood as "Ironwood" or "Ronwood," (like a silent y)?

I've always pronounced it Ronwood.

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8 hours ago, Falconer said:

Hi! Three short questions.

I have not yet read The Princess and the Queen, The Rogue Prince, or The Sons of the Dragon. Does anyone have an opinion on whether there is any value anymore in reading them in their standalone/abridged state? Or is it best just to sit down with Fire & Blood proper from cover to cover?

Definitely only FaB. The novellas are abridged versions riddled with mistakes.

8 hours ago, Falconer said:

If the latter, what should be read first, The World of Ice & Fire or Fire & Blood?

As things stand now I'd start with FaB because it is the more detailed version of the first part of the Targaryen reign. You would spoil yourself here if you read the sections of TWoIaF about that before FaB. TWoIaF broadens the view on Westerosi history as well as the more distant lands, and in that sense it is good read thereafter.

Not to mention that FaB is, at times, a much denser narrative. Things in TWoIaF are, at times, a very condensed overview whereas FaB really has time for little side stories and interesting episodes.

 

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13 hours ago, Falconer said:

Can anyone comment on the relationship/overlap between the A Game of Thrones RPG (2005) and The World of Ice & Fire?

They are not related. The RPG provides some general history, but that can also be found in the main novels.

The World of Ice & Fire gives much more history, newly written.

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