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On 1/6/2021 at 10:30 AM, Fflow said:

Does anyone have a clue about the point of Quentyn's story?
We've had a good part of the 4th book happening in Dorne, with the big reveal that Doran Martell actually had a plan to get back at Tywin. This was one of my favourite arcs in the books. But as far as I can see, in the end, only 3 things bear on the rest of the story:

- Myrcella's lost ear, and as she seems intent on covering the dornishmen, it should be of little importance to the rest of the story

- Ser Arys Oakheart's death, which in important enough because it frees a white cloack for Ser Robert Strong, but this could have happened in a lot of different ways, GRRM didn't need a dozen chapters just to kill a knight of the king's guard

- Quentyn's mission. At the end of AFFC, this seemed like the main consequence of the entire dornish arc. Except, well, this arc litterally goes up in flames in ADWD. In the end, we have a dead prince, but he wasn't going to inherit Dorne anyway, we got Ser Gerris Drinkwater and Ser Archibald Yronwood locked in a prison in Mereen, they probably won't accomplish much there, and Prince Doran, waiting. Ok, he sent several of the Sandsnakes in KL but this seems to be part of the same plan that requires Quentyn to come back with a dragon.

So what should we expect next? Have I missed something?

The Martells are really unlucky that Viserys died, because from what we see through Arys' (and Areo's) POV, it seems Viserys would have taken to Arianne way quicker than Dany took to Quentyn

The main reason for the Quentyn subplot could be to give Dorne a reason not only to favor Aegon, but also to resent Daenerys in the upcoming dance. Weren't Gerris and Archibald freed? Shouldn't we expect them to return home to share their side of the story with Dorne? 

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13 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

The main reason for the Quentyn subplot could be to give Dorne a reason not only to favor Aegon, but also to resent Daenerys in the upcoming dance. Weren't Gerris and Archibald freed? Shouldn't we expect them to return home to share their side of the story with Dorne? 

Not sure, but even if they do, they will not have that much to say against Dany, will they ? In mean, she refused him but she recieved him well enough. If anything, she's the one with a grievance. He was a guest under her roof and he tried to steal one of her dragons. And besides, Aegon is already on the shores of westeros, sending his envoy to Dorne. It will be months before the news of his son's death reaches him

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9 hours ago, Fflow said:

Not sure, but even if they do, they will not have that much to say against Dany, will they ?

Nothing nice.

.

Ser Gerris punched a wall. "I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

 .

So the two Dornish knights are totally free under one condition. With the help of some Windblown sellswords they are supposed to infiltrate the slavers camp and rescue the second most important unsullied, a bloodrider of Danys and of course Daario. So thats all pretty important, especially because Tyrion and Jorah are in said camp.

Quentyn also used the Windblown during his heroism on the condition of Doran of Dorne supporting the Tattered Prince in the conquest of Pentos (even if the Frog fails, spoiler he does), which upon his death Ser Barristan quickly adds Danys cosign. 

So things are happening

9 hours ago, Fflow said:

If anything, she's the one with a grievance. He was a guest under her roof and he tried to steal one of her dragons.

If that were the case shed probably not because she calls Frog over to the pits to tell him "A dragon has 3 heads" which Frog immediately took for have a free dragon. 

Of course Quentyn did not try to steal one dragon, if he did it actually might of worked, but he tried to steal two

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Why Golden Company with the Blackfyres never tried to forge their own kingdom in Essos? If some corsairs managed to do this with The Basilisk Isles, why a large band of professional mercenaries couldn't? Even if it wasn't their goal, still, controlled kingdom could have helped with the resources needed for the invasion of Westeros and conquest of Iron Throne.

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55 minutes ago, Malgoth said:

Why Golden Company with the Blackfyres never tried to forge their own kingdom in Essos? If some corsairs managed to do this with The Basilisk Isles, why a large band of professional mercenaries couldn't? Even if it wasn't their goal, still, controlled kingdom could have helped with the resources needed for the invasion of Westeros and conquest of Iron Throne.

Such a kingdom would've been easy to conquer for any of the Free Cities. 

Also, they've been tied down by a contract most of the time. They believe on returning back to Westeros up until this point. They always tought they will get back their own in the not-so-far future. They did not plan for such a long period.

Neither they had the resources to establish such a kingdom.

And of course, the leaders of the Golden Company mostly being Westerosi nobles, the goal always was to return to their homeland. Up until this day, a great amount of them is still Westerosi, because once knights or lords were exiled, they mainly found place at the Golden Company (Robert's Rebellion, the other Blackfyre rebellions, etc.)

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Another massive problem for any new kingdom in Essos are Dothraki khalasars. Or any new kingdom would have become target for raids by those. 

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On 1/8/2021 at 7:34 PM, Hugorfonics said:

Ser Gerris punched a wall. "I told him it was folly. I begged him to go home. Your bitch of a queen had no use for him, any man could see that. He crossed the world to offer her his love and fealty, and she laughed in his face."

But Ser Archibald is more subdued iirc. Besides, Gerris is still mourning his friend, a few months of travel should help him deal with his feelings.

On 1/8/2021 at 7:34 PM, Hugorfonics said:

If that were the case shed probably not because she calls Frog over to the pits to tell him "A dragon has 3 heads" which Frog immediately took for have a free dragon.

Not quite sure this was what Dany ment when she said the dragon has 3 heads. I figure in her mind, she would be giving the dragon to him in her own time

Quote

Of course Quentyn did not try to steal one dragon, if he did it actually might of worked, but he tried to steal two

Yeah so sad for him. Subduing 1 dragon was already far more than most people expected

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7 hours ago, Fflow said:

But Ser Archibald is more subdued iirc. Besides, Gerris is still mourning his friend, a few months of travel should help him deal with his feelings.

True. Theyll also be the ones to tell Doran hes already in an alliance with Dany over Pentos anyway, subdued or not.

7 hours ago, Fflow said:

Not quite sure this was what Dany ment when she said the dragon has 3 heads. I figure in her mind, she would be giving the dragon to him in her own time

Yea probably

7 hours ago, Fflow said:

Yeah so sad for him. Subduing 1 dragon was already far more than most people expected

Greedy Frog

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On 1/8/2021 at 9:05 AM, Fflow said:

Not sure, but even if they do, they will not have that much to say against Dany, will they ? In mean, she refused him but she recieved him well enough. If anything, she's the one with a grievance. He was a guest under her roof and he tried to steal one of her dragons. And besides, Aegon is already on the shores of westeros, sending his envoy to Dorne. It will be months before the news of his son's death reaches him

As other said before me that is not what Doran will learn. In my opinion the point with the trip was for Dany to lose the Dornish support and Aegon gain them.

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Hello, new here. My favorite part of i&f is the religions but I've only read the main novels.

My question is of the other canon material, how does it deal with the religions in comparison to the main novels?

About the same? Less? More? Is there any that gives a much more "insider" view of one or more of the religions? Think Arya with the Faceless Men as a bar.

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9 hours ago, Lilac & Gooseberries said:

As other said before me that is not what Doran will learn. In my opinion the point with the trip was for Dany to lose the Dornish support and Aegon gain them.

Ok, still not quite sure about that dut I guess we'll see :)

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Hi am kinda new to this but am really curious ,so is it possible to use dragon bone as a weapon against the others/wights ,I read somewhere that it has high iron content and you know it's a dragon(magical creature) so it may have an effect on them.

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9 hours ago, Dragomir said:

Hi am kinda new to this but am really curious ,so is it possible to use dragon bone as a weapon against the others/wights ,I read somewhere that it has high iron content and you know it's a dragon(magical creature) so it may have an effect on them.

Dragonbone AFAIK, is not used as a weapon directly. It's the best material for bows. It's used in knife, dagger and sword hilts. That's all ig. It wouldn't be better then obsidian/dragonglass. And that's already brittle 

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8 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Dragonbone AFAIK, is not used as a weapon directly. It's the best material for bows. It's used in knife, dagger and sword hilts. That's all ig. It wouldn't be better then obsidian/dragonglass. And that's already brittle 

It's probably waaay less brittle and waaay less sharp

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4 hours ago, CamiloRP said:

It's probably waaay less brittle and waaay less sharp

I was being way too much optimistic then 

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7 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

I was being way too much optimistic then 

Probably. 

I mean, think about it. Dragon bone is used to make the best bows, meaning it's likely very flexible, while  dragonglass is, you know glass. And Obsidian is effing sharp. Students at the Cittadel cut their palms trying to ignite the glass candles, and those are not purposely sharp.

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35 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

Given Stannis had no/little coin per Saan, why did Myrish sellswords fight for Stannis in Clash?

Did they? They brought up the rear. Escaped the Blackwater. Abandoned him soon as their hopes of gold went *puff*

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11 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Given Stannis had no/little coin per Saan, why did Myrish sellswords fight for Stannis in Clash?

I think that Salladhor Saan is working for Varys and Blackfyres. They needed to weaken fAegon's possible rivals, such as Lannisters, Baratheons (Stannis and Renly), and Starks. It was Littlefinger's plan that clashed them all against each other, though Varys/Blackfyres desided to wrung out of it maximum advantage for themselves. In my opinion, amongst Renly's and Stannis' people there are many who are actually Varys' agents, and Salladhor is one of them. His ancestor, Samarro Saan, was one of Ninepenny Kings who supported Blackfyres during their Fifth Rebellion, in 260. It's likely that Salladhor is Samarro's son or a younger brother.

Those Myrish sellswords are also working for Varys. It seems that Taena of Myr is one of Varys' agents. Tyrion found Myrish wine in the cellar of Illyrio's mansion. Young Griff is fluent in the low dialect of Myr. "Davos Seaworth notices a threadbare Myrish carpet on the floor of Lord Godric Borrell’s hall in Breakwater.[76] He also notices a Myrish carpet on the floor of Lord Wyman Manderly's secret room in the New Castle where he meets with Wyman and Robett Glover.[77]" Could be that Godric and Wyman are also working for Varys.

This -> "Lord [Varys]] reveals to Tyrion that he became a eunuch while he was part of a mummer's company in Myr.[58]"

and this -> "Myr is on the verge of war with Tyrosh and Lys.[70] The Myrmen contract the Golden Company and are then rumored to be supporting Tyrosh against Lys,[71] but the sellswords break their contract unexpectedly[70] before hostilities begin.[72]".

Seems that Varys could have a grudge against Myr, thus he influenced their internal politics, and while official government of Myr is in confrontation with Lys and Tyrosh, some Myrmen are actually Blackfyre supporters and they work for Varys. Those Myrish sellswords that were hired by Stannis, actually were/still are working for Varys.

If both Salladhor (and thus his ships also) and those Myrish sellswords are indeed Varys' agents, than this -> "During the Battle of the Blackwater, many of Stannis's Myrmen land on the southern shore of the Blackwater Rush.[67]" was not an accident, they didn't rejoined the fight later, because they weren't going to, even if Tyrion wouldn't have used a wildfire. In the original plan they also had an escape window -> "The fleet is organized into ten battle lines composed of twenty ships each. The first three lines are made up of war galleys belonging to the royal navy and the lords of the narrow sea. Behind them sails the smaller Myrish contingent, who are to land troops to attack the city, before joining the first three lines in battle." If the battle went according to Stannis' original plan, then most likely those Myrmen would have separated from main forces and then would have escaped from the battlefield. So when the main fleet got burned by wildfire, they intentionally sailed away and landed far away from the main battle, and that way didn't wasted their forces on fighting in Stannis' battle. They set him up and then escaped. Later they will resurface somewhere alongside with Golden Company and Salladhor's ships.

"However, when most of his fleet is destroyed by storms, Salladhor loses heart off the Three Sisters and decides to abandon Stannis, sick of waiting for payment from the king. He refuses to take Davos to White Harbor but does not throw him overboard as he threatened. Davos is set ashore on Sweetsister by rowboat.[14] Sallador then goes on to the Stepstones to engage in piracy.[14]" <- That's what he said, that majority of his ships were destroyed by storms and that he is going to Stepstones to engage in piracy. Though all that could be a lie. Did Davos himself saw how those ships sunk? If not, then Salladhor lied to him, and he went to Stepstones to join Golden Company, not to become a pirate.

Thus those Myrish sellswords from the very beginning were only pretending that they are working for Stannis, while actually they were working for Varys (same as Tyrells during Robert's Rebellion, who supposedly were Targaryen-loyalists, but actually did nothing to save Aerys or to help Rhaegar). They were there but did nothing, their actual contribution into Stannis' battles amounted to zero.

Maybe.

Edited by Megorova

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