Small Questions v. 10106

[Corvo the Crow]

What happened to Lyanna’s guard? Did Rhaegar just slaughter them?

[AlaskanSandman]

On 1/5/2022 at 5:59 AM, Ran said:

Jon has grey eyes.

You'd have to ask George, but certaily agree that Ned was father to six children.

@AlaskanSandman

Thanks! We'll get to them again, some day. In fact, literally just unpacked a brand new Canon EOS R6 camera after having hemmed and hawed for ages.... Almost everything else we've done was shot on an old Canon Rebel t4i, which is nearly ten years old now.

 

Small question. Was the unfinished road to the Sorrows mentioned at any point in Twoiaf that just got cut and didn't make it in? 

[zionius]

On 1/4/2022 at 3:18 AM, Ran said:

We registered the domain on December 8, 1999, but it was some months before the site launched there. Here's the earliest iteration that Archive.org has, on September 19th, and there I see that we officially launched the website on August 10, 2000. 
That said, before that, we had a website on Xoom.com which was the basic origin of Westeros.org. That site was being run at least from September of 1999, but I couldn't tell you when it was a launched -- Archive.org didn't capture it.

Xoom seems to be online on June 20, 1999. http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/announce/thread5s/thread5s1.html

Then on Dec 10 1999 you announced the new domain westeros.org, and it already had some content then, including the heraldry and SSM. http://community.fortunecity.ws/healthclub/rowing/100/announce/thread5s/thread5s3.html

Edited January 11, 2022 by zionius

[EggBlue]

I've got a few questions regarding Varys's little birds:

1. what happens to them when they grow up?
2. are they Essosi or Westerosi?
3. are they slaves or are they hired?!
4. are their tongues actually cut out?:/  I mean are they like Unsulied and are just mutes instead of euniques? or are they mute from birth?

Edited January 11, 2022 by EggBlue

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I've got a few questions regarding Varys's little birds:

1. what happens to them when they grow up?
2. are they Essosi or Westerosi?
3. are they slaves or are they hired?!
4. are their tongues actually cut out?:/  I mean are they like Unsulied and are just mutes instead of euniques? or are they mute from birth?

Varys pays them to read letters, documents etc and then recite back to him, so I doubt they'd be mutes. Remember this is medieval times and reading is not common, teaching it would be hard, teaching to a mute would probably much more harder.

[EggBlue]

5 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Varys pays them to read letters, documents etc and then recite back to him, so I doubt they'd be mutes. Remember this is medieval times and reading is not common, teaching it would be hard, teaching to a mute would probably much more harder.

I was(am) confused about these birds

in Dance it gives the impression that they recite the letters:

Quote

“Mice, we called them then. The older thieves were fools who thought no further than turning a night’s plunder into wine. Varys preferred orphan boys and young girls. He chose the smallest, the ones who were quick and quiet, and taught them to climb walls and slip down chimneys. He taught them to read as well. We left the gold and gems for common thieves. Instead our mice stole letters, ledgers, charts … later, they would read them and leave them where they lay. Secrets are worth more than silver or sapphires, Varys claimed. Just so. I grew so respectable that a cousin of the Prince of Pentos let me wed his maiden daughter, whilst whispers of a certain eunuch’s talents crossed the narrow sea and reached the ears of a certain king..."

but I went back to aGoT where it gave me the impression of mute kids:

Quote

“You are more than a juggler, old friend. You are a true sorcerer. All I ask is that you work your magic awhile longer.”

They started down the hall in the direction Arya had come, past the room with the monsters.

“What I can do, I will,” the one with the torch said softly. “I must have gold, and another fifty birds.”

She let them get a long way ahead, then went creeping after them. Quiet as a shadow.

“So many?” The voices were fainter as the light dwindled ahead of her. “The ones you need are hard to find... so young, to know their letters... perhaps older... not die so easy...”

“No. The younger are safer... treat them gently if they kept their tongues the risk...”

 did I misunderstand the sentence? 

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

7 hours ago, EggBlue said:

did I misunderstand

He liked the birds: the crows in the broken tower, the tiny little sparrows that nested in cracks between the stones, the ancient owl that slept in the dusty loft above the old armory. Bran knew them all.

"I always like to return to the city through the Gateof the Gods," Varys told Shae as he filled the wine cups. "The carvings on the gatehouse are exquisite, they make me weep each time I see them. The eyes . . . so expressive, don't you think? They almost seem to follow you as you ride beneath the portcullis."

Don't bother, sweetling, Tyrion thought, swirling the wine in the cup. He cares not a whit about carvings. The eyes he boasts of are his own. What he means is that he was watching, that he knew we were here the moment we passed through the gates.

Most chapters where people walk through a gate they watched as eyes are upon them.

 

Tongue is also defined as: to refer to plumage on a bird-jet of feathers sticking out.
 
Sandor Clegane stopped suddenly in the middle of a dark and empty field. She had no choice but to stop beside him. "Some septa trained you well. You're like one of those birds from the Summer Isles, aren't you? A pretty little talking bird, repeating all the pretty little words they taught you to recite."

Could be He wants to remove any distinguishing features on a bird to allow it to be mistaken as another type.  
A talking raven on Jeor shoulder? Sounds like a pirates parrot. 
Maybe flayed and replaced the birds skin? Ha! No idea. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[Corvo the Crow]

12 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I was(am) confused about these birds

in Dance it gives the impression that they recite the letters:

but I went back to aGoT where it gave me the impression of mute kids:

 did I misunderstand the sentence? 

Well, little children are more likely to not hold their tongue about something, so that's what I understood with that.

[Megorova]

On 1/11/2022 at 4:32 PM, EggBlue said:

what happens to them when they grow up?

They become Bronn, and Shae, and Petyr Baelish (the Mockingbird).

On 1/11/2022 at 4:32 PM, EggBlue said:

• are they Essosi or Westerosi?
• are they slaves or are they hired?!

Both and both.

And they are raised, so they grow up loyal to Varys and Illyrio, whom they see as their guardians/parental figures/caretakers/benefactors. So it's likely that they are not paid for what they do, because they do it out of gratitude and loyalty, for free.

On 1/11/2022 at 4:32 PM, EggBlue said:

are their tongues actually cut out?

What do you think? -> "Littlefinger smiled. "Leave Lord Varys to me, sweet lady. If you will permit me a small obscenity—and where better for it than here—I hold the man's balls in the palm of my hand." He cupped his fingers, smiling. "Or would, if he were a man, or had any balls. You see, if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that. Were I you, I would worry more about the Lannisters and less about the eunuch.""

 

"“The ones you need are hard to find... so young, to know their letters... perhaps older... not die so easy...”

“No. The younger are safer... treat them gently if they kept their tongues the risk...”" <- there are no punctuation marks in that part of the sentence, so parts of the sentences are missing.

Arya heard only parts of that conversation. Just because it was written there the way it was, it doesn't mean that she didn't misheard some parts. For example - "The younger are safer (...) treat them gently (...) if they kept their tongues (...) the risk (...)"

<- could be that in those places -> (...) <- he/they said something, though Arya didn't heard what, and didn't realised that she missed those parts too, same as she missed those parts that were marked with -> ... <-.

The phrase "if they kept their tongues" could mean something absolutely different from what the readers think. For example, in those parts that Arya didn't heard, Varys and Illyrio could have been discussing how certain information from Varys' little birds became known to Littlefinger, because those children didn't kept their tongues, in a sense that they revealed Varys' secret to LF, that's why LF later said to Cat - "if the pie is opened, the birds begin to sing, and Varys would not like that."

The general opinion that all of Varys' little birds are mutes, that their tongues are cut out, is possibly a misconception, a misunderstanding of what GRRM once said. I have read that comment, and it wasn't GRRM's direct speech/quote, it was a retelling/notes from discussion.

Here it is:

https://towerofthehand.com/blog/2013/05/27-conquest-44-report-grrm/

Quote

Editor's note: George R. R. Martin attended ConQuesT 44 this weekend in Kansas City and participated in two panel discussions. Pharout attended both sessions and she has kindly shared with us her reports. Below are some notes and other goodies from her reports about GRRM's ConQuesT panels.

...

As mentioned, the reading is from the upcoming The World of Ice and Fire book. Recently, this was reported as being delayed till Fall 2014. George said it would be out "next spring." Grain of Salt . . .

For this book, he was supposed to write 50,000 words - he wrote 250,000. The extras have been put in a file for a project they are now calling the "GRRM - arillion." Way down the road.

The premise of the "World" book is that it is a copy of a tome presented to Robert just after the Rebellion. The "article" he read was written by a Maester Glyndon. Glyndon distilled his work from three other accounts of the conquest: one from a septon, one from a Grand Maester, and one from "The Tales of Mushroom" a court fool. George actually wrote all three of these pieces as well.

"The Princess and the Queen" is a tale of the Dance of the Dragons that will appear in the anthology Dangerous Women. He turned in 80,000 words, which was edited down to 30,000.

He would like to do 5 or 6 more Dunk and Egg stories. The first 3 are to be released as a collection next spring.

Walder Frey is the annoying little kid in "The Mystery Knight."

Varys' little birds do have their tongues cut out. They are "provided to him" that way.

What exactly did GRRM said then, is not known. Who asked him and what, is not known. In reply to what question did he said what he said about those little birds, is not known. And again - what exactly did he said isn't known. The person who wrote that report, could have misinterpreted and misremembered what was said.

The phrase "if they kept their tongues the risk" could be partial with some of it not heard by Arya, and what she heard was misinterpreted by the readers as that supposedly Varys' little birds don't have tongues.

Then someone in 2013 asked GRRM something about this (info in that link), while being under misconception that Varys' little birds are tongueles mutes. He or she asked GRRM something about the little birds, and GRRM answered that they are provided to Varys, and the exact meaning of what are the parameters of "that way" (They are "provided to him" that way.) got lost in the process of retelling. Does the phrase "that way" mean - mute, or does "that way" mean provided to Varys thru Illyrio, not in a sense what those children are like (supposedly mute, based on the misconception of the readers), but in a sense how (thru what path/way/method) do they become Varys' little birds - via Illyrio, and that's the meaning of the phrase "that way". And it doesn't mean what the readers thought. It's not an evidence/confirmation from GRRM, that the little birds are mutes, instead it is the source that started this whole misconception/mislead.

Evidence that they are not mute:

ACOK, Tyrion IV - "Varys gave him a shrewd look. "My little birds tell me that Princess Elia cried a . . . certain name . . . when they came for her.""

Edited January 12, 2022 by Megorova

[AlaskanSandman]

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Blackwood+wolfswood

 

Is there a site like this for Fire and Blood? Don't have the E book, just the hard copy and a total pain to look up quotes and type them up.

[Megorova]

8 hours ago, AlaskanSandman said:

https://asearchoficeandfire.com/?q=Blackwood+wolfswood

 

Is there a site like this for Fire and Blood? Don't have the E book, just the hard copy and a total pain to look up quotes and type them up.

http://searcherr.work/

[AlaskanSandman]

1 minute ago, Megorova said:

http://searcherr.work/

Thank you very much!

[The Bard of Banefort]

Where was Tyrion prior to AGOT? Did he live at court, or was he living at Casterly Rock? 

[EggBlue]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:34 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Where was Tyrion prior to AGOT? Did he live at court, or was he living at Casterly Rock? 

Casterly Rock and Lannisport. in dance he says he knows Lannisport better than Kingslanding.

[Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe]

On 1/13/2022 at 3:04 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Where was Tyrion prior to AGOT? Did he live at court, or was he living at Casterly Rock? 

Tough question. Toilsome answer.

I remember looking for anything about how and where he spent his time. He left Casterly Rock for Cersei wedding. That timeline was muddling.

Could be.. 

"A voice from nowhere," Sandor said. He peered through his helm, looking this way and that. "Spirits of the air!" The prince laughed, as he always laughed when his bodyguard did this mummer's farce. Tyrion was used to it. "Down here." 

He never saw the wolf, where it was or how it came at him. One moment he was walking toward Snow and the next he was flat on his back on the hard rocky ground, the book spinning away from him as he fell, the breath going out of him at the sudden impact, his mouth full of dirt and blood and rotting leaves. As he tried to get up, his back spasmed painfully. He must have wrenched it in the fall. He ground his teeth in frustration, grabbed a root, and pulled himself back to a sitting position. "Help me," he said to the boy, reaching up a hand.

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Fool Stands On Giant’s Toe

[The hairy bear]

It seems that Tyrion's main residence had been King's Landing court for some time by the time AGOT starts:

• He was present at King Joffrey's name day tournament, and had been on KL tournaments long enough for Renly to know his betting habits. (A pity the Imp is not here with us,” Lord Renly said. “I should have won twice as much.”)
• When he meets Lysa at the Eyrie: "Lysa Arryn and her half-sane weakling son had not been known at court for their love of wit, especially when it was directed at them."
• When he meets Ser Vardis: "Tyrion remembered him well from the years he had spent at King’s Landing as the captain of the Hand’s household guard."
• After Tyrion visits the Wall he departs towards KL, not Casterly Rock.

Edited January 17, 2022 by The hairy bear

[BlackLightning]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:30 AM, The hairy bear said:

It seems that Tyrion's main residence had been King's Landing court for some time by the time AGOT starts:

• He was present at King Joffrey's name day tournament, and had been on KL tournaments long enough for Renly to know his betting habits. (A pity the Imp is not here with us,” Lord Renly said. “I should have won twice as much.”)
• When he meets Lysa at the Eyrie: "Lysa Arryn and her half-sane weakling son had not been known at court for their love of wit, especially when it was directed at them."
• When he meets Ser Vardis: "Tyrion remembered him well from the years he had spent at King’s Landing as the captain of the Hand’s household guard."
• After Tyrion visits the Wall he departs towards KL, not Casterly Rock.

Yet, Tyrion still says he knows his way around Lannisport better than he knows his way around King's Landing.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

19 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Yet, Tyrion still says he knows his way around Lannisport better than he knows his way around King's Landing.

I would imagine that Tyrion has been at court for a year or so. If not, then maybe he came for occasional visits.

[EggBlue]

• why did Torros resurrect Beric? it's not like they knew each other before tourney of the hand and it wasn't the first time Torros witnessed a good man die... so what was special?
• the same question for Beric and Cat... why did he save her? there were thousands of innocents and many of his friends who died but he didn't resurrect them.. why Cat?

[TheLastWolf]

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

• the same question for Beric and Cat... why did he save her? there were thousands of innocents and many of his friends who died but he didn't resurrect them.. why Cat?

They weren't the highborn lady wife of the Hand (last legal one) he swore to serve. Beric was an honourable man and till the end he served Robert and Ned.

4 hours ago, EggBlue said:

• why did Torros resurrect Beric? it's not like they knew each other before tourney of the hand and it wasn't the first time Torros witnessed a good man die... so what was special?

Nothing bonds people together as much as undergoing life threatening hazards in pursuit of a common objective for a mutual master. Stormland lads and Northern men-at-arms fighting with a crazy Myrish priest (just sobered and made lean by battle) in the Riverlands? Like brother from another mother moment... Common link their exceptional loyalty to Robert and by extension Ned