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Small Questions v. 10106


Rhaenys_Targaryen
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16 hours ago, EggBlue said:
  • why did Torros resurrect Beric? it's not like they knew each other before tourney of the hand and it wasn't the first time Torros witnessed a good man die... so what was special?
  • the same question for Beric and Cat... why did he save her? there were thousands of innocents and many of his friends who died but he didn't resurrect them.. why Cat?

I may be confusing this with how it happened in the show (in Beric's case), though if I do remember correctly - when Torros performed kiss of fire on Beric, he wasn't expecting that it will bring him back from death. Torros himself was unaware what this "kiss" can do. So the question is - if he wasn't intending to resurrect Beric, and he didn't even knew that the kiss of fire is actually also a kiss of life, then why did he kissed him? -> That's because possibly it's a part of an ancient funeral ritual that is usually performed by Red Priests for their fallen comrades - the other Red Priests (in my opinion, the Red Priests were using this ritual on their fallen comrades during the First Long Night, to prevent them from rising as White Walkers after they died. It's a cleansing ritual that prevents "winter magic" from infecting dead bodies and turning them into zombies). I'm sure that Torros had previously performed this ritual on many other people (despite the fact that he was supposed to use it only on the other Red Priests, not on the average people), and in the past nothing ever happened - the people that died remained dead even after the kiss. So why did the kiss worked differently on Beric and Cat? -> In my opinion, that's because both of them are dragonseeds.

You know this my theory that amongst ASOIAF's characters there are many of those who are actually bloodrelated to Targaryens. So, in my opinion, amongst Beric's ancestors there was Rhaena Targaryen - wife of Garmund Hightower. According to TWOIAF, they had six daughters. I think that those daughters married with a Hightower, Dayne, Dondarrion, Arryn, Tully and Tyrell. So the children of those daughters were:

- Dyana Dayne (wife of Maekar I Targaryen and the mother of Aegon V) and her siblings,

- Jenna Dondarrion (wife of Baelor Breakspear Targaryen) and her siblings,

- Alys Arryn (wife of Rhaegel Targaryen) and her siblings,

- Medgar Tully's father and his siblings (apparently they were the children of one of Rhaena's daughters that married with the son of either Kermit or Oscar Tully),

- Leo Longthorn Tyrell and his siblings.

So could be that Beric Dondarrion is a dragonseeds thru one of his ancestors - one of Jenna Dondarrion's brothers, who was one of Rhaena Targaryen's grandchildren. And Catelyn Tully is possibly also Rhaena's descendant, thru her father Hoster Tully and before him thru Medgar Tully, who possibly was Princess Rhaena's great-grandson. And also could be that Cat is a dragonseed thru her mother - Minisa Whent, who in my opinion was a granddaughter of the founder of House Whent, who possibly was the Bastard of Harrenhal and the secret child of Jeyne Lothston and Aegon IV Targaryen.

So the kiss of fire worked on Beric and Cat as the kiss of life because both of them were dragonseeds, and dragons are "fire made flesh". Thus the fire revived their dead flesh, because they are - blood of the dragons.

So Torros in the past was performing this ritual on many people. Like those priests that in the real world cross the forehead of the dying people, or something like that. For Torros it was just a symbolic gesture, just a part of a funeral rites. And it's just a pure coincidence that one of the people on whom Torros performed this symbolic ritual (the real meaning of which got lost in times), turned out to be a dragonseed, on whom this ritual worked as a revival tool. And then later, when they found Cat's body, could be that Beric just felt in her the same thing as was in him - that there's "fire" in her blood, thus in her case this ritual will also work as a revival tool. And that's why he did it. Because after each of his revivals he was becoming less and less himself, so he wanted to end his existence. And by passing his "fire" to Cat, this way he made his final death not meaningless. He provided Cat with an opportunity to avenge her death, and to make amends, and to say goodbye to her family, or something like that.

P.S. If anyone has a better explanation - be my guests.

Edited by Megorova
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@Ran

Others are supposed to hate iron and fire and vulnerable to obsidian and "dragonsteel". Since "ancestral" Valyrian swords in Westeros only date back 5 centuries or so back, let alone the fact that freehold did not even exist during the time of the Long Night, this can't possibly be Valyrian Steel. But what's more interestng is, how the ancient texts even have mentions of steel and others hating iron when FM didn't even work iron and were beaten to Andals because they had iron weapons whereas FM had bronze ones. Is this legends accumulating stuff over time like heroes in the songs becoming knights seeing as early FM carved runes on rocks so most of the written stuff came later on or has Mr. Martin made some errors here like the one with Corbrays having Valyrian Steel swords during Andal Invasion.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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Valyria did exist during the Long Night but the dragonsteel could be the first valyrian steel made before the Valyrian started to make it and got famous under the name that it's currently known for.

As for the Andals, I doubt Martin made an error, the timeline is blurry because they don't have the same tools that modern society have:

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“10,000 years” is mentioned in the novels. But you also have places where maesters say, “No, no, it wasn’t 10,000, it was 5,000.” Again, I’m trying to reflect real-life things that a lot of high fantasy doesn’t reflect. In the Bible, it has people living for hundreds of years and then people added up how long each lived and used that to figure out when events took place. Really? I don’t think so. Now we’re getting more realistic dating now from carbon dating and archeology. But Westeros doesn’t have that. They’re still in the stage of “my grandfather told me and his grandfather told him.” So I think it’s closer to 5,000 years. But you’re right. Westeros is a very different place. There’s no King’s Landing. There’s no Iron Throne. There are no Targaryens — Valyria has hardly begun to rise yet with its dragons and the great empire that it built.

But it seems they were already in Westeros during the Long Night, they might be responsible for it when they started to destroy the weirwoods, ending the Pact between the Children and the First Men.

Look for @Alabastur works, he made some really strong arguments about these: 
Who Taught the Valyrians to tame dragons (the post on the forum if you want to talk about it)
ASoIaF Timeline Theory: Andals in the Long Night - Game of Thrones
 

Also, it's doubtful that the Others hates iron. The only time it's mentioned, it's by Old Nan. She is reporting tales and superstitions and one of our popular belief is "cold iron":

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"Cold iron" is historically believed to repel, contain, or harm ghosts, fairies, witches, and other malevolent supernatural creatures. This belief continued into later superstitions in a number of forms:

  • Nailing an iron horseshoe to a door was said to repel evil spirits or, later, to bring good luck.
  • Surrounding a cemetery with an iron fence was thought to contain the souls of the dead.
  • Burying an iron knife under the entrance to one's home was alleged to keep witches from entering.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_in_folklore#Cold_iron

 

So it's more likely an invention by Old Nan, a superstition, especially since the old books found in the Night's Watch library says that steel is useless against the Others:

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"The armor of the Others is proof against most ordinary blades, if the tales can be believed," said Sam, "and their own swords are so cold they shatter steel. Fire will dismay them, though, and they are vulnerable to obsidian."
A Feast for Crows - Samwell I

 

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11 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Valyria did exist during the Long Night but the dragonsteel could be the first valyrian steel made before the Valyrian started to make it and got famous under the name that it's currently known for.

It's possible that Valyrians claimed the already existing sword and renamed it dragonsteel as for Valyria existing, Valyrians did exist, Freehold did not. Even Ghis was just starting to flourish.

 

11 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

ut it seems they were already in Westeros during the Long Night, they might be responsible for it when they started to destroy the weirwoods, ending the Pact between the Children and the First Men.

They themselves don't think so and Andal Invasion is rather well documented compared to the Long Night.

 

11 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

Also, it's doubtful that the Others hates iron. The only time it's mentioned, it's by Old Nan. She is reporting tales and superstitions and one of our popular belief is "cold iron":

 

Could be. Old Nan seems to have a great deal of forgotten knowledge though, knowledge that has truth to it. She even declares the red comet is dragons coming but yes some of her stories may have fabrications in it.

11 hours ago, TheBlackSwan said:

So it's more likely an invention by Old Nan, a superstition, especially since the old books found in the Night's Watch library says that steel is useless against the Others:

Old boos would be written long after LN or else we would have more detailed accounts of LN. Their cold shattering the blade of a sword in time becoming it shattering steel can be possible. A sword would obviously bronze for the one who first starts telling the story, how could it be anything else? everyone knows that swords are made of bronze what else would you do it from? Then thousands of years later when someone starts to write down these old stories, the sword would obviously be steel, everyone knows you use steel to make a proper sword, what else would you give to a man of the watch? Bronze? It's for primitives like wildlings, everyone in their right minds would laugh at you for even suggesting it.

 

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It's possible that Valyrians claimed the already existing sword and renamed it dragonsteel as for Valyria existing, Valyrians did exist, Freehold did not. Even Ghis was just starting to flourish.

Valyrians are from Valyria... sure Valyria wasn't the big empire that it's known for but it was there like Martin said in the quote I posted. And Old Ghis existed also during the Long Night. If we look at the timeline it says that after the Long Night, Old Ghis saw that Valyria had dragons, they attacked the dragon lords to try to get their hands on these powerful weapons, 5 wars broke out, the last one launching the expansion of the Valyrian empire. The last war happened 5.000 years. Martin confirmed that the Long Night happened closer to 5.000 years BC. So Valyria was around the Long Night and it's probable that they got the dragons and the spells to forge valyrian/dragonsteel towards the end of the Long Night, that the Children of the Forest are the one who taught them those arts.

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They themselves don't think so and Andal Invasion is rather well documented compared to the Long Night.

History is written by the victors... and Alabastur has a great video to explain that aswell with serious proof that the Andals covered up their responsability: ASoIaF Timeline Theory - the Andal Coverup
Not sure that you will watch so I'll just reuse the quotes.
For the "well documented":

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What little is known to us of those days is contained in the oldest of texts: the tales written down by the Andals, by the Valyrians, and by the Ghiscari, and even by those distant people of fabled Asshai. Yet however ancient those lettered races, they were not even children during the Dawn Age.
The World of Ice and Fire - Ancient Histories: The Dawn Age.

So what we know from the Dawn Age was written by the Andals and the Andals didn't know much, same for the Age of Heroes:

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The Age of Heroes lasted for thousands of years, in which kingdoms rose and fell, noble houses were founded and withered away, and great deeds were accomplished. Yet what we truly know of those ancient days is hardly more than what we know of the Dawn Age. The tales we have now are the work of septons and maesters writing thousands of years after the fact..
The World of Ice & Fire - Ancient Histories: The Age of Heroes.

Like Sam said in A Feast For Crows

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The oldest histories we have were written after the Andals came to Westeros. The First Men only left us runes on rocks, so everything we think we know about the Age of Heroes and the Dawn Age and the Long Night comes from accounts set down by septons thousands of years later. There are archmaesters at the Citadel who question all of it.

So we can't really believe in what the Andals wrote, especially if they are responsible for the Long Night. What we think we know of what happened during that time come from the Andals and especially one of their book call "True History" (weird name...) and some accounts from that book are dubious. When a character says that the Long Night happened 8.000 years ago, he is referring to True History but some maesters contest it and we know they are right. Alabastur has a serious argument about that and it's High Heart.
He remind us that the Children likes to live beneath hills and weirwoods and that High Heart is a really large hill, a hill that is above the clouds. It also has 31 weirwoods, High Hearts could have been a really important place for the Children, like their capital. But it was destroyed and the Children slaughtered and we have 2 stories of what may have happened:

- The first one are from songs/legends. They says that the Children and the First Men team up to protect High Heart from the Andals but they got slaughtered and the weirwood were cut down.
- The second version is from the book True History, it says that when the Andals arrived, High Heart was already destroyed and the Children had already left the Riverlands thousands of years before.

If True History is right, what did put an end to the Pact between the Children and the First Men leading to the Long Night? They were living in peace together... unless True History is just a covered up, the Children and the First tried to repel the Andals but they got slaughtered, the destruction of High Heart put an end to the Pact and triggered the Long Night, the Others.

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Where exactly is legitimized bastards in the line of sucession? If we take the Iron throne as an example, if Robert had legitimized Edric Storm would he be before Stannis in the line? Would he come before Myrcella? 

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17 hours ago, LordImp said:

Where exactly is legitimized bastards in the line of sucession?

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents

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A man's eldest son was his heir. After that the next eldest son. Then the next, etc. Daughters were not considered while there was a living son, except in Dorne, where females had equal right of inheritance according to age.

After the sons, most would say that the eldest daughter is next in line. But there might be an argument from the dead man's brothers, say. Does a male sibling or a female child take precedence? Each side has a "claim."

What if there are no childen, only grandchildren and great grandchildren. Is precedence or proximity the more important principle? Do bastards have any rights? What about bastards who have been legitimized, do they go in at the end after the trueborn kids, or according to birth order? What about widows? And what about the will of the deceased? Can a lord disinherit one son, and name a younger son as heir? Or even a bastard?

There are no clear cut answers, either in Westeros or in real medieval history. Things were often decided on a case by case basis. A case might set a precedent for later cases... but as often as not, the precedents conflicted as much as the claims.

 

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I have a question that is not exactly a question, I just have a theory and want to know someone else's opinion on this topic. So, the not-a-question is:

if the vows of the Night's Watch is a riddle about six specific characters of ASOIAF, then who in your opinion could be "the shield"? (and the others) ->

"I am the sword in the darkness" - Brienne, or maybe Jaime.

"I am the watcher on the walls" - Shiera Seastar.

"I am the fire that burns against the cold" - either Dany, or maybe Melisandre.

"the light that brings the dawn" - the wielder of Lightbringer/Jon.

"the horn that wakes the sleepers" - Sam (because he has the Horn of Winter).

"I am the shield that guards the realms of men." - who could be this one??? Any ideas?

It's from Corvo the Crow's thread, this one:

On 2/17/2022 at 4:21 PM, Corvo the Crow said:

I think these may all have been people.LH may have been a sword in the darkness, as we are told of his sword being broken in the Night(and later on, his word broken as NK) Joramun is specifically told to wake the giants with his horn, named for some reason Horn of Winter, so he would be the horn that wakes the sleepers. Who are the other ones? House Royce's words are "We remember" What did they remember?  Their CoA is a bronze shield with runes on it, could they be the shield that guards the realm of men?

His idea is that the vows reflect the characters from the past, though, knowing GRRM's writing style, that history repeats itself, it's likely that not only the vows were based on legendary people that created Night's Watch, but also they foreshadow the events that will occur in the future. So amongst the current characters there could also be this "sword", "shield", "fire", etc.

So - who's the shield?

Edited by Megorova
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Nowadays House Swyft is "only" knightly house. But 

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Attacked from three sides, the westermen were driven back foot by foot into the waters of the Gods Eye. Hundreds died there, cut down whilst fighting in the reeds; hundreds more drowned as they tried to flee. By nightfall two thousand men were dead, amongst them many notables, including Lord Frey, Lord Lefford, Lord Bigglestone, Lord Charlton, Lord Swyft, Lord Reyne, Ser Clarent Crakehall, and Ser Tyler Hill, the Bastard of Lannisport. The Lannister host was shattered and slaughtered, but at such cost that young Ben Blackwood, the boy Lord of Raventree, wept when he saw the heaps of the dead. The most grievous losses were suffered by the northmen, for the Winter Wolves had begged the honor of leading the attack, and had charged five times into the ranks of Lannister spears. More than two thirds of the men who had ridden south with Lord Dustin were dead or wounded.

The Princess and the Queen

there seemed to be Lord Swyft who died at battle called the Fishfeed.

So why and when Swyfts lost their status as lords? Naturally assuming that Lord Swyft mentioned in above quote was not some kind of typo.

 

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@Ran Has Mr. Martin been in any way influenced by the reactions to show? I don't mean the reactions to the end but the show as a whole, it's all 8 seasons. Say, for example if fans responded real well to something in the S3 of the show that wasn't in the books did it affect him and put something similar in TWOW? Or if fans shipped two characters, say for example Loras and Hother(not gonna say the two I really think though everyone knows)he had no intention of having a love interest, would he have an idea of making them a couple later on?

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1 hour ago, Back in Black-Snow said:

What is the difference between a heart tree and a wierwood tree? Or are they the same thing?

Heart tree is a specific carved tree in a godswood that's worshiped . it's often weirwood ( which is a type of tree in general) , but there are other types of heart trees where weirwoods don't grow; for example the heart tree in the Red Keep is an Oak.

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On 2/25/2022 at 10:38 AM, Corvo the Crow said:

Has Mr. Martin been in any way influenced by the reactions to show? I don't mean the reactions to the end but the show as a whole, it's all 8 seasons. Say, for example if fans responded real well to something in the S3 of the show that wasn't in the books did it affect him and put something similar in TWOW? Or if fans shipped two characters, say for example Loras and Hother(not gonna say the two I really think though everyone knows)he had no intention of having a love interest, would he have an idea of making them a couple later on?

Not @Ran, but AFAIK, George said that the only thing from the show that will influence the books is Natalia Tena's performance as Osha. 

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