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Rhaenys_Targaryen
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2 hours ago, zionius said:

@RanYou've said different things about whether Alysanne was the daughter of Maegor in the first full Targaryen tree. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jtLHMFBUGw 18/11/2017 - yes

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/34958-the-asoiaf-wiki-thread/page/92/#comment-8081203 25/11/2017 - no

https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/148863-the-book-of-swords-the-sons-of-the-dragon-spoilers/page/34/#comment-8229237 29/8/2018 - yes

Which one is correct? I suppose the 2nd one?

Okay, my 2017 correction to my first comment was correct -- I was wrong to say it, as it was reflecting the quirk of our initial understanding of the file that George helped us correct (he basically sent us a Wordstar file where he had formatted the tree using tabs and spaces, and our conversion program at the time did not perfectly handle that). 2018, obviously, I had held on to that initial memory so long that I forgot I had corrected it!

So, definitively: Maegor had no children even in the very oldest family tree. Also, Alyssa Velaryon was originally named Vala Velaryon, but Alysanne still had her name. By the second version of the tree from 2010 or 2012 or some date like that, she was named Alyssa.

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7 minutes ago, Ran said:

So, definitively: Maegor had no children even in the very oldest family tree. Also, Alyssa Velaryon was originally named Vala Velaryon, but Alysanne still had her name. By the second version of the tree from 2010 or 2012 or some date like that, she was named Alyssa.

This settles the issue, thank you! 

It seems GRRM had wanted a more Valyrian name for the Velaryons. 

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3 hours ago, zionius said:

Ah I'm too dumb. It's inferred from the fact that her sons by Lyonel Strong all perished in Dance, whereas Aegon III & Viserys II have the surname Targaryen:D

Yeah, I think the Strong information I took from the role-playing guide, and the second consort being an unknown Targaryen was something Ran had already revealed by that time. We were in general split between an uncle of Rhaenyra's or, as I liked to speculate, Rhaenyra marrying one of Aegon's younger brothers.

At that time we have no idea how old the characters would be during the Dance.

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The Strong thing is from like the 2nd iteration of the three (the present one is, I guess, iteration 4). The first iteration of the tree... well, that had someone very different as her first husband. And her second husband. And a few other quirks relevant to the Dance. A really notable figure or two are completely missing.

I wonder, actually, if the Cushing Library has those earlier files. But unless George sent a print out of the tree, it'd be a wordstar file on a disk maybe? Not even sure George has sent disks.

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I might add there that back then the consensus as I remember it was that Rhaenyra's children regardless of her husband would be named Targaryen ... that they should go by the house name of her consort was a considerable surprise. I recall that we were wondering with the Lyonel Strong setting whether one of her three Strong sons succeeded Lyonel Strong as Lord of Harrenhal and whether this would have meant they would have been Lord X Strong of Harrenhal or Prince X Targaryen of Harrenhal.

@Ran, I think you had told us that the second consort was a Targaryen man, clarifying the family name issue for Aegon III and Viserys II. I think prior to the roleplaying guide thing nobody ever expected Rhaenyra to have had multiple consorts - or at least not multiple consorts in succession. Polygamy was always something we were entertaining.

By that time we had knowledge that Viserys I had had two wives - the Arryn and the Hightower, and you had told us that Rhaenyra's mother was a Targaryen cousin on her mother's side - but about Rhaenyra's own family we knew effectively nothing.

2 hours ago, Ran said:

The Strong thing is from like the 2nd iteration of the three (the present one is, I guess, iteration 4). The first iteration of the tree... well, that had someone very different as her first husband. And her second husband.

You have said the first tree had a Lannister as her consort, but I seem to recall that he was her only husband then?

2 hours ago, Ran said:

And a few other quirks relevant to the Dance. A really notable figure or two are completely missing.

If I had guesstimate then the Velaryons underwent considerable changes in the fleshing out of things. George had established in ACoK that they provided brides for three Targaryen princes which then would have been Aenys, Aegon III, and some unknown guy. Rhaenys' and Rhaenyra's Velaryon consorts would have been later additions (and one imagines that Rhaenys herself was only a character George invented when fleshing out the succession of Jaehaerys I).

I do recall that the background of Alyn Velaryon changed quite drastically during the writing process of TWoIaF/FaB, as well as George original take on the minority of Aegon III.

It seems the Velaryon element in the reign of Viserys I was strengthened with Laenor and Laena, but the Strong idea never went completely away.

And I still kind of wonder whether Jace, Luke, and Joffrey were originally the names of Rhaenyra's sons by Lyonel, with Jace and Luke merely being Valyrianized and turned into nicknames because their father was now a Velaryon.

It doesn't seem as if George wanted to fly with the practice of the nobility to use nicknames amongst their friends and family - if he had wanted to make use of that we would also (and especially) have gotten nicknames for Aegon the Elder and Aegon the Younger and the two Targaryens from that era named Viserys.

In any case - the Jace and Luke nicknames thing remains an oddity.

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14 hours ago, zionius said:

Cushing Library has a full catalog on its website https://web.archive.org/web/20211026144142/https://archon.library.tamu.edu/?p=collections/controlcard&id=86 which doesn't seem to include ASOIAF notes and disks.

I wonder when did Daemon first emerge? Is it as late as 2012?

I imagine the first germ/version of what would be Daemon was the first family tree entry of Rhaenyra's Targaryen consort. Even if the consort was then not her uncle but a cousin or half-brother or unknown relation, he would have been the foundation for the Daemon character.

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26 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I imagine the first germ/version of what would be Daemon was the first family tree entry of Rhaenyra's Targaryen consort. Even if the consort was then not her uncle but a cousin or half-brother or unknown relation, he would have been the foundation for the Daemon character.

Is it possible to see the first family tree somewhere? I've only heard about it.

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I was reading about the maesters being bound to the castle or settlement, not the lord or the family ruling the place. This is somewhat a law in the order. 

When Theon takes Winterfell, Luwin counsels him. 

On the other hand, Tybald, the Dreadfort maester, poses as Karhold's maester, is eventually caught and gets imprisoned by Stannis. Since he broke the previous rule of "a maester is bound to the place, not the people" he'll be probably condemned to death by Stannis.

But then comes Cressen...

He was Storm's End maester but at some point "follows Stannis Baratheon to Dragonstone". I find it weird, especially when it is Stannis also involved, being to close to rules and all. Question is, how come Cressen could switch his station? Is there any clue in the text?

Edited by Jon Fossoway
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2 hours ago, Jon Fossoway said:

I was reading about the maesters being bound to the castle or settlement, not the lord or the family ruling the place. This is somewhat a law in the order. 

When Theon takes Winterfell, Luwin counsels him. 

On the other hand, Tybald, the Dreadfort maester, poses as Karhold's maester, is eventually caught and gets imprisoned by Stannis. Since he broke the previous rule of "a maester is bound to the place, not the people" he'll be probably condemned to death by Stannis.

But then comes Cressen...

He was Storm's End maester but at some point "follows Stannis Baratheon to Dragonstone". I find it weird, especially when it is Stannis also involved, being to close to rules and all. Question is, how come Cressen could switch his station? Is there any clue in the text?

I assume that Luwin did same thing. After all we know that he was at Riverrun when Robb was born and name of maester for WF during reign of Lord Rickard was Walys. In fact I suspect that Luwin came to WF with Cat. So it seems that sometimes maesters follow people. It is also possible that septa Mordane also came with Cat from RR. After all there were neither septas nor sept in WF bf Cat became ruling lady of that castle.

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On 10/22/2022 at 3:55 PM, Loose Bolt said:

I assume that Luwin did same thing. After all we know that he was at Riverrun when Robb was born and name of maester for WF during reign of Lord Rickard was Walys. In fact I suspect that Luwin came to WF with Cat. So it seems that sometimes maesters follow people. It is also possible that septa Mordane also came with Cat from RR. After all there were neither septas nor sept in WF bf Cat became ruling lady of that castle.

The text is rather murky on the maester's replacement issue. Initially I thought that the Citadel dictates who goes where, especially in the case of the demise of a maester stationed in a certain settlement. Pylos is a good example, since he is sent by the Citadel to replace Cressen. Even though Cressen at all lights can't physically perform as a maester at the difficult-to-transit Dragonstone, Stannis doesn't "fire him", since Cressen, a sworn member of an order, is bound to... Well, wait, wasn't he bound to Storm's End? 

So I still find it weird or not explained enough. 

As for Luwin, I can't find information on the wikia (my book worming days are long past gone), but pressumably Walys died and Luwin was also sent to Winterfell by the Citadel. Since Catelyn was married to the lord of Winterfell for some reason Luwin delivered the Lady of Winterfell's firstborn, even though she was at Riverrun at the time. Still murky, IMO. And just following a hunch, I don't think Luwin was Riverrun's maester before since I can't remember a single remembrance of Cat mentioning it. It is quite a piece of information, if you ask me.

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@Ran How do ravens even work when they can only go to one place? Is there a system of raven transportation between castles? If so why don’t we ever see it and what is even the point of it when sending riders would be much more faster? Sure for the first few messages you send to a castle it would be much faster but after that you have to wait for new ravens that go to that castle and it would especially be hard during times of war, making riders the much better choice.

 

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30 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Is there a system of raven transportation between castles? If so why don’t we ever see it and what is even the point of it when sending riders would be much more faster?

We've seen it a few times. In AGOT, Bejen Stark returns to the Wall with a cage of ravens that maester Luwin gave him. In ACOK, Yoren travels toward the Wall with a cage of ravens from King's Landing. In AFFC Jaime's company leaves KL with "four cages full of ravens", and so on. The underlying idea is that whenever anyone travels from one keep to the other, the maesters take care that ravens are moved along.

As per who would move faster, this article claims that a raven could fly 160 km (100 miles) per day, and in a straight line, while the average horse is only able to ride 40 km (25 miles) following only the available roads. So ravens are clearly a better option.

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6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

We've seen it a few times. In AGOT, Bejen Stark returns to the Wall with a cage of ravens that maester Luwin gave him. In ACOK, Yoren travels toward the Wall with a cage of ravens from King's Landing. In AFFC Jaime's company leaves KL with "four cages full of ravens", and so on. The underlying idea is that whenever anyone travels from one keep to the other, the maesters take care that ravens are moved along.

As per who would move faster, this article claims that a raven could fly 160 km (100 miles) per day, and in a straight line, while the average horse is only able to ride 40 km (25 miles) following only the available roads. So ravens are clearly a better option.

Thanks, I’ve forgotten about seeing those but riders being faster was not a comparision with Ravens but travellers carrying raven cages. You send a few to a castle then you are out of them. Also there still remains the issue of white ravens and all the traffic that would exist with Oldtown since Maesters would communicate with their order as well.

Edited by Corvo the Crow
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Is there any meaningful connection between Illyrio's Serra, who worked at a Lysene pillow house, and Saera Targaryen, who took service at a Lysene pleasure house?

I know they're not the same people, because they lived several hundred years apart from each other, and they had different eye and hair colors. But the idea that Serra was Saera's descendent, or somehow named after her seems unlikely.

Is it just a weird coincidence?

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Mmh... I need a small refresher and even though I am right now leafing through the books again, maybe someone here is more knowledgeable right away:

How much does Jaime know about the sack of Winterfell?

I know the official story is that Theon sacked the city and Ramsay came to the rescue. But given Jaime's knowledge about handing Ramsay a fake Arya and calling it out on being a load of bull in dialogue to Brienne, does he also know that Ramsay actually sacked the castle? Or is the lie of the Boltons the version that even the Lannisters got?

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