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The house with the red door and the lemon tree


Dead men sing no songs

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This “theory” only works if R+L=D and B+A=J, which honestly, I never believed it could make a lot of sense until I started to re-read AGoT looking for some plausible and logical explanation of what’s going on in the north.

So, if you think that there’s no way this could be true, then you might as well just move on, but I think this is plausible and hopefully, after you read these 2 thousand words, you will also.

 

When Robert came to visit Ned, they went to the Crypts and Robert says this about Lyanna (and her dead body):

 

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"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

 

 

Now, we know Ned then tells him that this is where she belongs, but the truth is, the more you think about it the less it makes sense. At this point, Ned had at least one baby to hide before everyone knew said baby was a “dragonspawn”, not to mention he needed someone to fed the baby, so at least a wet-nurse (or another mother) was involved, he had five northerners to bury and if his dream of the Tower can be believed, three kingsguards; that makes 8 dead bodies plus Lyanna’s.

And she was not only dead but covered in blood and clearly with signs of being pregnant and giving birth. A woman that just gave birth still has a belly that is not easy to hide, not to mention that once the baby is born, the breasts are full of milk.

So, if he wanted to keep the whole thing secret is reasonable to think that he should involve the fewer people possible.

So the only way that Lyanna’s body could make it back to Winterfell is either if he carried the dead body around or if someone cleaned up the body so he could travel with the bones. Again, the logistics of cleaning a dead body are messy, and any person who saw the body would knew she was pregnant and had a child, so why would Ned trust that said person would keep quiet and not tell? Why would he risk that much for a bag of bones?           

 

Even if the Daynes would help him to conceal the whole thing, there’s still a considerable distance from the Tower to Starfall. And again, it would involve more people than necessary.

 

That makes the idea of just bury Lyanna there much more reasonable.

 

So say she is buried on a hill in Dorne, under a fruit tree, a lemon tree. Why would it matter?

 

Because that would make Dany’s dream of the red door and the lemon tree mean something else. Those dreams wouldn’t be about a childhood that probably she never had, but her “crypt dreams

 

All the Stark kids, and specially Jon, dream of the Crypts. In Jon dreams the place is dark (as it is in reality) and what awaits him is also dark because in the crypts the Starks “stares at eternal darkness”; but if Lyanna is not there, that’s not what she’s staring at, she is “staring” at a lemon tree in the red mountains of Dorne and that’s what Danny sees in her dreams, the house with the red door and the lemon tree is the Tower of Joy, she might think the door is red but it could be that it seems red because of the red mountains behind (part of the tower was used to bury the bodies), and Dany thinks that’s in Braavos because maybe it was there were she started to dream about it.

 

Of course unlike Jon, whose dreams are terrifying because finding out that Ned is not his father would be a terrifying thing for him, for Dany learning that she’s Rhaegar’s and Lyanna’s child would be great, even if it means she’s a bastard.

 

As for Jon, I’m starting to think that it makes much more sense that not only he’s Brandon’s son and not Ned’s, but that he’s also a trueborn son. I’ll just name a few, the more meaningful ones:

 

 

1.      Jon looks like Brandon and he acts like him.

 

Brandon had the grey eyes of the Starks, and was hot-blooded what his father called “wolf-blood”. When you compare what we know about him and how he behaves, Jon is exactly like him, not like Ned.

Here are a couple of things:

·       Brandon spent a time in Barrowtown, there he had a “thing” with Barbrey, but he knew his duty was elsewhere. Just like Jon with Ygritte.

·       Brandon might have married Cat, but maybe he was already married; Jon might have married Ygritte, but he was already married with the Watch.

·       At Harrenhal Brandon had to be restrained when Rhaegar crowned Lyanna because he thought it was an insult to her honor. Just like Jon had to be restrained when Thorne called Ned a traitor

·       Brandon went straight to his dead when Lyanna was abducted; Jon went straight to his when “Arya” was abducted from Winterfell.

 

2.     It would better explain lots of Ned’s reactions

 

There’s no doubt that Ned loved Lyanna, and maybe the pain over her dead is what doesn’t let him speak about her. But for Brandon, he feels a different kind of pain.

 

"Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.”

 

Truth is, there’s enough evidence in the text that proves that Cat was still in love with Brandon, even when the guy had been dead for a very long time, and Ned knew it. She even thinks that Brandon was better looking.

There’s no evidence that Ned loved Ashara, but maybe he liked her, and Brandon had her, so Ned could possibly think that it was all for Brandon: Cat, Winterfell, Ashara. He’s resentful towards his brother.

It would also explain why he feels ashamed when he thinks of Jon:

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The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, and a sorrow too deep for words

If Jon is Lyanna’s why would Ned be ashamed? He lied to protect the kid, and there’s honor in that lie, no reason to be ashamed. But if the lie is not honorable, then things change.

 

3.     It would make Robb’s marriage even more meaningful

 

Robb married the Westerling girl because of his father’s alleged actions. He doesn’t want to father a bastard with one woman and marry another. We know Jon is not Ned’s son, and that makes the poor kid’s decision awful enough, but if Ned’s decision of posing Jon as a bastard was not an honorable thing to do, but a convenient thing to do, then, Robbs’s fate is worse.  

 

4.    It would better explain why Ned never told Cat

 

As I already mentioned, Cat loved Brandon, she was still in love with him after all these years, so if Jon is Brandon’s, Ned might wanted to spare her from the pain that not only Brandon didn’t loved her back, but the fact she had to raise the son that the guy had with another woman.

It would also explain why he forbids her to speak of Ashara; it’s more about Cat than him actually.

 

5.     It better explains why Benjen told Jon this when he asked to join the Night’s Watch

 

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“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.”

 

 

The oath would cost him Winterfell. It was what Jon always wanted. He wanted to be a hero to prove he was a true Stark, to prove Ned he was worthy and to earn the right of wielding his family sword. If Jon is Brandon’s then, not only he could have Winterfell but the possibility of wielding “Dawn”, which is the greatest sword ever, and his mother’s family sword.

 

6.    It explains this nonsense:

 

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"I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children."

 

If Jon is Brandon’s, of course he’s older than Robb, and Maester Luwin knew the kid was older, so he came up with this idea that bastards grow up faster, because he needed to be younger, it was the “official” version of things, and Luwin had no way to explain it. I’m not saying Luwin knew who Jon is, but he could tell he was older than Robb. Which but the way, would explain why Ned took so many time to come back to Winterfell after the war, he needed time because there’s no way you can pose a 2 month baby as newborn, but you can reasonable do it once the baby is a little older.

 

 

 

And most important, if B+A= J and R+L=J and N+C=5 wargs then, the “awakening” of magic is much more reasonable.

 

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"He's of my village. You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t' strengthen the clan.”

 

Once this people with “magical blood” mingled with women from “afar” and stopped the incest bullshit, the magic awakened, because inbreeding is bad. The proof is that Dany also married a guy from afar and that’s how she awakens the 3 dragon eggs (probably 3 different kinds of powerful bloods involved could be the secret).

 

 

So, for Dany her “crypt dreams” are happy because finding out the truth about her parents is good news. For Jon his “crypt dreams” are creepy because finding out the truth is a horrible way to find out that Ned lied for his own sake and not Jon’s or Dany’s.

 

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"Tell me, Jon, if the day should ever come when your lord father must needs choose between honor on the one hand and those he loves on the other, what would he do?"

Jon hesitated. He wanted to say that Lord Eddard would never dishonor himself, not even for love, yet inside a small sly voice whispered, He fathered a bastard, where was the honor in that? And your mother, what of his duty to her, he will not even say her name. "He would do whatever was right," he said … ringingly, to make up for his hesitation. "No matter what."

"Then Lord Eddard is a man in ten thousand. Most of us are not so strong. What is honor compared to a woman's love? What is duty against the feel of a newborn son in your arms … or the memory of a brother's smile? Wind and words. Wind and words. We are only human, and the gods have fashioned us for love. That is our great glory, and our great tragedy.”

 

 

For Eddard, the honorable thing to do was to raise Jon as Brandon’s son and Lord of Winterfell. But ultimately he wasn’t that strong and he chose the woman he loved and his child over his brother’s. After all, the guy was only human.

When the war ended he found himself married to a woman that was not meant for him, fathered a son that wasn’t meant for him, heir to a title, a castle and a responsibility that weren’t meant for him, and by the time he had already made his peace with that burden and took those responsibilities on his shoulders, and fight a war he didn’t wanted or asked for, he finds out that still, none of it is meant for him. Brandon had a son, and it was all meant for him.

But the nightmare wasn’t over yet, Lyanna had a daughter, a “dragonspawn”, that had Robert or the Lannisters found out of her existence, would most likely end up just as dead as Rhaegar’s trueborn kids.

So Ned takes Brandon’s son and poses him like his bastard. He would raise the kid were he should, because that was his place.

And he left Lyanna’s daughter with someone that could made her pose as something else. It might be the Daynes or someone else.

Dany looked like a Targaryen or a Dayne and Jon looked as a Stark. More like a Stark than Ned’s kids. And truth is, Dany was not only a bastard but a girl, so he kept her from dying because she was Lyanna’s, but never really thought twice about her, until Robert wanted to kill her. I think at some point he found out she had been shipped to Essos, which is exactly what he suggested to Cersei she should do with her bastards, and that’s why once he knows that she was going to be murdered he starts to think about Lyanna and the broken promises and Jon and shame.

 

As for the Daynes, I’m not sure how involved they are, but there’s one thing that makes me think that at least Arthur was.

 

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They were seven, facing three. In the dream as it had been in life. Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. (…)”

 

We know that Arthur would have killed Ned "if not for Howland Reed", so maybe when Ned dreams about the Tower and the fight is just because Reed convinced Arthur that Ned wouldn’t kill the children, and the three that faced the seven were Ned, Arthur and Howland, killing the other 7 so they won’t talk.

 

What happened to Arthur or Ashara after this I really don’t know, but I think Arthur could very well be Qhorin, and his friendship with Mance would be a nice way to explain why Mance went three times to Winterfell and why is he so interested in the Crypts and helping Jon.

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34 minutes ago, Legitimate_Bastard said:

Fun read.

Where can one find the debunkings?

Not my job to do basic queries for you, but it is soundly debunked ever single time it is proposed. Basic searching on this forum or reading the books also debunks it. It always relies on "but what if X didn't actually happen," or "Y is actually lying to themselves in their own thoughts" or "Timelines don't matter," "GRRM is lying to us to fool everyone," etc.

 

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It is possible for Jon to be the son of Brandon and Ashara.  Very possible.  Mance Rayder and Eddard Stark are better candidates in my opinion.  Mance bedding the Stark maid, Lyanna.   It fits with the story of Bael and the blue rose.  

Daenerys is that special someone who was prophesied a long time ago.  She has to be as pure blooded as possible.  A look back at the prophesy from the old witch is enlightening.  The promised princess must come from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella.  Think about this.  Aerys could have had a child with any other woman and the child would have been a Targaryen.  The same is true for Rhaella.  The child will be from the Targaryen line in both of those cases.  The requirement that the child must come from both Aerys and Rhaella can only mean the promised princess must be pure Targaryen.  In other words, both parents must be Targaryen.   Rhaegar and Viserys are ruled out because they're dead.  The promised princess can only be Daenerys.  She made the prophecy come true when the dragons hatched.  

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3 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Daenerys is that special someone who was prophesied a long time ago.  She has to be as pure blooded as possible.  A look back at the prophesy from the old witch is enlightening.  The promised princess must come from the line of Aerys AND Rhaella.  Think about this.  Aerys could have had a child with any other woman and the child would have been a Targaryen.  The same is true for Rhaella.  The child will be from the Targaryen line in both of those cases.  The requirement that the child must come from both Aerys and Rhaella can only mean the promised princess must be pure Targaryen.  In other words, both parents must be Targaryen.   Rhaegar and Viserys are ruled out because they're dead.  The promised princess can only be Daenerys.  She made the prophecy come true when the dragons hatched.  

Prophesies never mean what you think.

Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry.

Rhaella is forced to break it off with Bonifer.  Rhaegar, healthy and talented, soon arrives.

From then on, no success, as one might expect from a doubly-inbred union.  All the children either died young, or were mad like Viserys.  Why?  Because they are (unlike Rhaegar) the children of Aerys and Rhaella.  Rhaegar is, of course, the son of Bonifer.

Meanwhile, Aerys is fooling around with all the Ladies of the Court.  Since Rickard Stark was at court during this period, possibly Aerys' flings included Rickard's wife, Lady Stark.  Note that Lady Stark is a Stark by birth … a cousin of Rickard.  She doesn't necessarily need Rickard's help to produce a daughter with some Stark features.  And/or maybe Aerys is also/instead fooling around with Lady Dayne, producing Ashara.  (Aerys would have to be pretty precocious to get it on with the Princess of Dorne, producing Elia Martell.  He would have been what?  Eleven?  But curiously, the Princess was at court, not too long before she returned home and gave birth to Elia).

Rhaegar thinks he unites the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and will fulfill the prophesy … until his mom says "Silly boy, your dad is Bonifer."

"Oh dear", says Rhaegar.  "How can the lines of Aerys and Rhaella be united to fulfil the prophesy …."

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Incidentally.  Never trust anyone who says.  "This theory has been thoroughly debunked -- here read this giant giant thread."  If the disproof of the theory were that airtight, it could probably be expressed in fewer words.  At the very least, they would link you to a post; not to an entire thread.

If the argument is a good one, it ought to be possible to condense it.  An appeal to a thread looks more like an appeal to social pressure than an appeal to logic and reason.

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5 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The logistics of cleaning up a dead body is to burn it and take out the bones.

More usually, the way you do it is you entomb the body somewhere safe, like under a cairn.  Later, when the body is sufficiently decomposed, you retrieve the bones.  This does less violence to the body.

There were 8 cairns at the Tower of Joy, but most assume there were 9 bodies.  The 8th cairn was for Lyanna.  The one who did not get a cairn was Lord Willam Dustin.  He did get not a cairn because he died later, with no-one around to build a cairn for him.  This is why Ned was unable to return his bones to Lady Dustin.

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2 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Incidentally.  Never trust anyone who says.  "This theory has been thoroughly debunked -- here read this giant giant thread."  If the disproof of the theory were that airtight, it could probably be expressed in fewer words.  At the very least, they would link you to a post; not to an entire thread.

If the argument is a good one, it ought to be possible to condense it.  An appeal to a thread looks more like an appeal to social pressure than an appeal to logic and reason.

Never trust anyone that says "fewer words = airtight." That is just not true.

However, Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. Therefore, B+A =/=J

De-bunked.

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Remember that Simpsons episode with the "No Homers Club"?
A young Homer Simpson tries to join the "No Homers Club" but was denied entry at the door.
He argued that another "Homer" is in the club, and the bouncer emphasized the 'S' in "HomerS" ... the club is allowed only one ... hehe clever writing

Just because Braavos is part of the No Lemon TreeS Club, doesn't mean they aren't allow just one.

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Samwell III AFFC:

Trees did not grow on Braavos, save in the courts and gardens of the mighty.

 

Dany and Viserys definitely stayed in a big house with a red door, and a personal garden with a single lemon tree as a luxury item of some VIP homeowner ... in Braavos.

De-bunked.

 

Also, Braavos is based on the actual city of Venice, Italy. Personally, I have visited Venezia (along with Roma and Milano hehe) ... and the first thing I noticed were the canals, the second was that there were no cars, and third there were barely any trees. But the city does get its fruits and vegetables from the country-side.
Perhaps GRRM is just recalling his experience in Venice while describing Braavos and how there were no trees in the city itself. But they do have a country-side outside the city. The name Braavos may come from the Italian word "bravo" ... suggesting GRRM enjoyed the city. I definitely enjoyed my stay there.

 

@kissdbyfire @The Fattest Leech

Quick Off Topic: Thank you for introducing me to my long lost crazy twin @40 Thousand Skeletons!! His crazy theories may be crazier than mine but I actually agree with some of them after a quick glance. But I'll finish reading the rest when I have free time. I always believed Howland Reed was the cause of everything in ASOAIF ... he is GRRM's Bilbo Baggins! (Sorry for the intrusion, back to topic!)

 

But NO NO NO NO to R+L=D and B+A=J. When HBO's D&D approached GRRM, GRRM asked them "Who are Jon's parents?" and D&D got it right. D&D's version is shown all around the world and its the most accepted version of TOJ.

Brandon + Ashara = Jon is debunked @40 Thousand Skeletons

Lucky for me, the way GRRM phrased the original question to D&D keeps my pet theory alive. Sneaky GRRM hehe. 

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At the OP, sorry to burst some of the bubbles, but the arguments you used for B+A=J and R+L=D would actually work better for R+L=J.

 

9 hours ago, Dead men sing no songs said:

1.      Jon looks like Brandon and he acts like him.

You can also say Jon looks like Lyanna and acts like Rhaegar. Sometimes when I read about Rhaegar, I feel like Rhaegar knows nothing too.

 

9 hours ago, Dead men sing no songs said:

2. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything.”

contradicts your

9 hours ago, Dead men sing no songs said:

5. If Jon is Brandon’s then, not only he could have Winterfell....

Ned never wanted to be Lord of Winterfell. He grew up knowing it was Brandon and his heirs' birthrights. If Jon was truly Brandon's son, he would have given Winterfell to Jon when he comes of age. Ned is not power-hungry.

 

9 hours ago, Dead men sing no songs said:

4.    It would better explain why Ned never told Cat

 

As I already mentioned, Cat loved Brandon, she was still in love with him after all these years, so if Jon is Brandon’s, Ned might wanted to spare her from the pain that not only Brandon didn’t loved her back, but the fact she had to raise the son that the guy had with another woman.

It would also explain why he forbids her to speak of Ashara; it’s more about Cat than him actually.

If I had two choices and ONLY two choices between:
1. Raising my dead ex-gf's child that is not mine
2. Raising my cheating wife's child, with my cheating wife still alive (anyone watching season 3 of HBO's True Detective??)

I rather pick # 1 if I was only given these two choices.

 

Now lets rearrange this two options for Cat.

Remember, Cat was only betrothed to Brandon, but Cat married Ned.

1. Ned telling Cat that Jon is her ex-bf's son
2. Ned telling Cat that Jon is his own bastard child with an un-named women he cheated with, and Cat has to see Ned as a cheater for the rest of her life

 

If Ned is trying spare Cat's feelings, #1 is not as bad as #2. But GRRM went with #2.

 

But I will agree with you that Brandon and Ashara did have an affair, and he forbids Cat from mentioning Ashara's name for Cat's sake, and for the Honor of House Stark.

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13 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

"Never trust anyone that says "fewer words = airtight." That is just not true."

Except nobody ever said that.  See?  This is why we have trust issues.  Even if you honestly think I said it, we still have problems.

"However, Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. Therefore, B+A =/=J

De-bunked."

Well, that was certainly an easier read than 3 giant threads.  Thank you.  Now I know why you think it is debunked.

But here's the problem.

In the case of B+A=J,, we don't know when Jon was conceived, in part  because we don't know when he was born.  We have some information suggesting when he might have been born.  But many take Luwin's explanation that bastards mature quicker as a clue that Jon is older than he is supposed to be. 

Cersei and others clearly suspect that Ned and Ashara got it on, and that Jon is the result of that union.  But Brandon was still alive when Ned and Ashara were rumored to be doing hanky panky.  Maybe Cersei and others are bad at timelines?  Or maybe you're not fairly assessing the (possibly conflicting) evidence.

I don't support B+A=J.  But it is very difficult to declare that any theory has been thoroughly debunked.

R+L=J has also been "debunked" on the basis of timeline.  But somehow,  when people support a theory they always find a way around the objection.  Always, what you call a clue, others might call a "red herring" and others might call "GRRM is bad at timelines".

 

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15 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

But NO NO NO NO to R+L=D and B+A=J. When HBO's D&D approached GRRM, GRRM asked them "Who are Jon's parents?" and D&D got it right. D&D's version is shown all around the world and its the most accepted version of TOJ.

 

I remember them only being asked and answering who Jon's mother was. Am I remembering incorrectly?

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16 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

But NO NO NO NO to R+L=D and B+A=J. When HBO's D&D approached GRRM, GRRM asked them "Who are Jon's parents?" and D&D got it right. D&D's version is shown all around the world and its the most accepted version of TOJ.

Don't get me wrong.  I think R+L=J is probably correct.  So, my guess would be that when GRRM asked them who Jon's mother was, and they answered (according to GRRM, correctly), I would guess they probably said "Lyanna Stark" and not "Ashara Dayne".  Because, well, that's what I already believe, more or less.

But when you take ambiguous, non-committal, statements, as absolute proof of what you already believe, we have a phrase for that.  It is called "confirmation bias".

R+L=J will be confirmed when (and if) GRRM confirms it.  Until then, you're just going to have to cope with the uncertainty, or at least, the disagreement or uncertainty of others.

GRRM obviously intends to keep us guessing.  IMHO he is doing a good job.

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On 1/25/2019 at 9:22 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Prophesies never mean what you think.

Aerys and Rhaella were forced to marry.

Rhaella is forced to break it off with Bonifer.  Rhaegar, healthy and talented, soon arrives.

From then on, no success, as one might expect from a doubly-inbred union.  All the children either died young, or were mad like Viserys.  Why?  Because they are (unlike Rhaegar) the children of Aerys and Rhaella.  Rhaegar is, of course, the son of Bonifer.

Meanwhile, Aerys is fooling around with all the Ladies of the Court.  Since Rickard Stark was at court during this period, possibly Aerys' flings included Rickard's wife, Lady Stark.  Note that Lady Stark is a Stark by birth … a cousin of Rickard.  She doesn't necessarily need Rickard's help to produce a daughter with some Stark features.  And/or maybe Aerys is also/instead fooling around with Lady Dayne, producing Ashara.  (Aerys would have to be pretty precocious to get it on with the Princess of Dorne, producing Elia Martell.  He would have been what?  Eleven?  But curiously, the Princess was at court, not too long before she returned home and gave birth to Elia).

Rhaegar thinks he unites the lines of Aerys and Rhaella, and will fulfill the prophesy … until his mom says "Silly boy, your dad is Bonifer."

"Oh dear", says Rhaegar.  "How can the lines of Aerys and Rhaella be united to fulfil the prophesy …."

Rhaegar was a failure.  So was Viserys.  Little sister, the Child of Three, is the success.

On 1/25/2019 at 9:26 PM, Platypus Rex said:

Incidentally.  Never trust anyone who says.  "This theory has been thoroughly debunked -- here read this giant giant thread."  If the disproof of the theory were that airtight, it could probably be expressed in fewer words.  At the very least, they would link you to a post; not to an entire thread.

If the argument is a good one, it ought to be possible to condense it.  An appeal to a thread looks more like an appeal to social pressure than an appeal to logic and reason.

I agree with this statement.  A theory that requires multiple paragraphs and countless twists to make it work is not a good theory.  In my opinion, R+L=J is one such theory.  

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23 hours ago, Ser Leftwich said:

Never trust anyone that says "fewer words = airtight." That is just not true.

However, Brandon was dead before Jon was conceived. Therefore, B+A =/=J

De-bunked.

This is actually not true.  Jon Snow is much older than Ned Stark is passing him off to be.  There is physical evidence to support this.  Jon's advanced physical maturity (clearly not mental though) compared to Robb was so conspicuous that Maester Luwin had to invent a reason:  bastard grow up faster than trueborns.  A load of shit for an excuse but Luwin had to come up with something to divert people's attention from the obvious and real reason:  Jon is a lot older than Robb.  

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14 minutes ago, Wolf's Bane said:

Rhaegar was a failure.  So was Viserys.  Little sister, the Child of Three, is the success.

So your idea is that "Child of Three" means one of three people, who all started life as children.  I find that unsatisfying.  Are you not leaving out a whole slew of dead, and not particularly successful, Targs?  Why not "child of 30"? 

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