The house with the red door and the lemon tree

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

2 minutes ago, corbon said:

I didn't mean to imply you had. The 'lemon tree' fiasco started long ago (literally many years back in forum history), not because lemon trees are native to Dorne (no one says they aren't) but by people who decided that because Bravos is not a native climate for lemon trees, Dany's explicit memory of living in a big house in Bravos with a red door and a lemon tree must be a false memory. The then they created all kinds of symbolism to support that her memories and whole backstory are false, and she was actually somewhere entirely different - must be Dorne because lemons - which totally supports this other whacko theory, which they just happened to have, about her origins.
Its a simple fact that it is not at all 'suspect' for a rich man in Bravos to have a lemon tree in his garden, even though they are not native trees to Bravos.

 

One of the worst things about this forum is that people take the tiniest potential flaw in the text, utterly misread it into something huge, then create utterly unnecessary conspiracy theories around nothing.
Another example which comes to mind (due to recent discussion) would be the 'midnight flight' of Viserys' stories to Dany. Which seemingly doesn't tally with Jaime's recollection of Rhaella getting into a carriage to go to the docks in the morning. Of course, ships sail with the tide, not with their passengers, and the passage to Dragonstone by ship takes more than just a few hours, often a few days, so the two textual differences are entirely compatible, but thoughtless forumites tend to get all excited by the difference and claim all sorts of weirdness from this 'difference'. In truth, its as simple as Rhaella and co leaving the castle in the morning, and the voyage to Dragonstone being at least overnight on board the vessel, and excited young Viserys being up after dark a bit and remembering the moonlight shimmering on the ships sails.

I see where you are coming from, and there are certainly plenty of people who read too much into symbolism, which I try to avoid myself. I focus on the narrative and the straightforward clues left by the author. When it comes to lemon gate, I think there have been so many conspiracy theories that go too far and grasp too many straws that people like you have been jaded, and you can no longer see the forest through the trees.

I think the way grrm writes is that he leaves a bunch of subtle clues, and the occasional glaring clue. There are many subtle clues that Dany's childhood is a lie. The glaring clue, which is supposed to make the reader question the whole situation in the first place and reread everything, is that lemons don't grow in the Riverlands, which is south of Braavos, and Sharna simultaneously informs us they do grow in Dorne. So we should definitely be suspicious that the house with the red door is in Dorne, simple as that. No other evidence is needed for me to consider it a strong possibility, and there is other evidence like the fact that the midnight flight doesn't quite match up, and Dany describes big chunks of Dragonstone being destroyed by the storm but we see no evidence of that from Davos or anyone else.

So until there is some new info (in TWOW), I think it is more likely that the house was in Dorne. Not based on any symbolism or anything shaky, just based on that one line from Sharna.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And here I thought you two were a match made in heaven. 

Lol if that's what people on the forum think of my theories, I have done a horrible fucking job presenting the evidence for them 

No offense map guy 

[corbon]

21 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think the way grrm writes is that he leaves a bunch of subtle clues, and the occasional glaring clue. There are many subtle clues that Dany's childhood is a lie. The glaring clue, which is supposed to make the reader question the whole situation in the first place and reread everything, is that lemons don't grow in the Riverlands, which is south of Braavos, and Sharna simultaneously informs us they do grow in Dorne. So we should definitely be suspicious that the house with the red door is in Dorne, simple as that. No other evidence is needed for me to consider it a strong possibility, and there is other evidence like the fact that the midnight flight doesn't quite match up, and Dany describes big chunks of Dragonstone being destroyed by the storm but we see no evidence of that from Davos or anyone else.

Thats exactly the kind of false logic I'm talking about. Lemon trees could grow in the riverlands, possibly some wealthy lords actually even have some. Lemoncakes seem popular enough, Ser Ryman Frey bathed in Lemonwater before the Red Wedding, LC Mormont has lemons at the wall. Its unlikely that they are all imported from far south (Winterfell probably has some in its glass gardens). But it takes wealth to have them. In the riverlands, where they are not a native tree, a common inn isn't likely to have a bunch in its stores, As Sharna implies, in Westeros at least, you'd need to be in a natural growing area like Dorne for a common inn to have any in its stores.  
There is no evidence at all that lemon trees cannot (and do not) grow in the Riverlands or in Bravos.
There is only evidence that they are not common, or native, in these places.

There is absolutely no issue with a single, remarkable, lemon tree being in the garden of a big house in Bravos.

Dany is explicit. She remembers the red door and lemon tree big house as being in Bravos. Further, she remembers wandering from Bravos to Myr to Tyrosh to Qohor etc after being put out of the big house. No mention of Dorne, or a major sea voyage (though there probably was one if they went directly from Bravos to Tyrosh).

I'd be interested in what other clues you claim that her childhood is a lie. I don't recall any of them being even as good as this non-event.
 

Quote

That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.

They had wandered since then, from Braavos to Myr, from Myr to Tyrosh, and on to Qohor and Volantis and Lys, never staying long in any one place.

 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

20 minutes ago, corbon said:

Thats exactly the kind of false logic I'm talking about. Lemon trees could grow in the riverlands, possibly some wealthy lords actually even have some. Lemoncakes seem popular enough, Ser Ryman Frey bathed in Lemonwater before the Red Wedding, LC Mormont has lemons at the wall. Its unlikely that they are all imported from far south (Winterfell probably has some in its glass gardens). But it takes wealth to have them. In the riverlands, where they are not a native tree, a common inn isn't likely to have a bunch in its stores, As Sharna implies, in Westeros at least, you'd need to be in a natural growing area like Dorne for a common inn to have any in its stores.  
There is no evidence at all that lemon trees cannot (and do not) grow in the Riverlands or in Bravos.
There is only evidence that they are not common, or native, in these places.

There is absolutely no issue with a single, remarkable, lemon tree being in the garden of a big house in Bravos.

Dany is explicit. She remembers the red door and lemon tree big house as being in Bravos. Further, she remembers wandering from Bravos to Myr to Tyrosh to Qohor etc after being put out of the big house. No mention of Dorne, or a major sea voyage (though there probably was one if they went directly from Bravos to Tyrosh).

I'd be interested in what other clues you claim that her childhood is a lie. I don't recall any of them being even as good as this non-event.

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you are missing the forest through the trees. You are way overcomplicating the issue. Sharna's comment clearly is meant to imply that lemons don't normally grow that far north but do grow in Dorne, and grrm went completely out of his way to write that unnecessary dialogue knowing that Dany remembers the lemon tree outside her window. That's not false logic at all. It is the simplest, most straightforward interpretation of the text and the author's intent.

[corbon]

4 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

This is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you are missing the forest through the trees. You are way overcomplicating the issue. Sharna's comment clearly is meant to imply that lemons don't normally grow that far north but so grow in Dorne, and grrm went completely out of his way to write that unnecessary dialogue knowing that Dany remembers the lemon tree outside her window. That's not false logic at all. It is the simplest, most straightforward interpretation of the text and the author's intent.

I'm not the one overcomplicating it. Lemons clearly are found all over the place, for the rich. We even see them at the wall and Winterfell.
Even Anguy's references to Sharna show they are a luxury item - he's had them once. Sharna's snapping at him because its rank idiocy to expect a common and war-ravaged (Sharna has taken over the inn after finding the previous owners dead) inn to have luxury items in its stores.

The same logic you are using suggests that any reference to Arbor Gold must clearly be in the Arbor. Since thats where it comes from.

 

We can agree to disagree.

 

[The Map Guy]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dude, you are seriously a huge victim of your own confirmation bias. To think that your map theory or any other theory is effectively confirmed true based on the research you've done and the arguments you've presented is delusional. I have way less confidence in my own theories.

I'm roughly 99% confident on R+L=J&M. GRRM left too many subtle clues in the books, outside the books, and literally on the books' covers.

If you only read the first part of my theory R+L=J&M, there are 5 other parts, with 1 part that was banned from this forum. I was never given a reason why it was banned. Perhaps GRRM personally asked the moderators to remove it because it revealed too much lol. Nah jk...i'm dreaming.

For about 3 days in November, this forum got a glimpse of Top Secret Theory before it was banned. The thing was, I had more to give for that theory and I never got a chance to do it. I know GRRM's inspiration to the apostrophe in "R'hllor" and it has everything to do with R+L=J&M.

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

For example just look at how much you are reading into that line in Meera's intro. You claim that grrm is purposely violating laws of physics here to symbolize something important about Meera, but that's ridiculous. Here, look at this quote:

Quote

A blast of cold air blew through the hall, raising ashes from the fire trench and fanning its flames a little brighter.

I guess by your logic Justin Massey is Rhaegar's son or something?

THANK YOU FOR THIS!!! This connects a minor missing link in Top Secret Theory and the ADOS prediction. I won't get into details but that line was not for Justin Massey, it was for Asha. This chapter ADWD was called "The Sacrifice" and it has a lot R'hllor in it. The biggest take away from the chapter is that Asha reunites with Theon.

In my ADOS prediction, Jon reunites with Meera and the climax of ALL ASOIAF happens in that moment. A moment of Sacrifice where the flames get a little brighter....for an instant.

In Top Secret Theory, the siblings of Theon & Asha were parallel-linked to the siblings of Jon & Meera...via a flying unicorn (i'm not joking about the unicorn)

Sorry....going off topic. Read R+L+J&M [Part 6] for more info.

 

7 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

And here I thought you two were a match made in heaven. 

Haha siblings fight all the time! But I doesn't mean I don't respect him.

 

 

[The Map Guy]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Lol if that's what people on the forum think of my theories, I have done a horrible fucking job presenting the evidence for them 

No offense map guy 

No offense taken.

I came into the forum August 2018 with my R+L=J&M theory, the Ruby Map theory, and Meereenese Knot was all about Meera theory.

Everyone on the forum came at me with pitchforks and torches (kinda what they are doing to the lemongaters right now).

Nowadays, people have been quiet with my R+L=J&M theories....which is still better than pitchforks and torches.

[Ygrain]

9 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I see where you are coming from, and there are certainly plenty of people who read too much into symbolism, which I try to avoid myself. I focus on the narrative and the straightforward clues left by the author. When it comes to lemon gate, I think there have been so many conspiracy theories that go too far and grasp too many straws that people like you have been jaded, and you can no longer see the forest through the trees.

I think the way grrm writes is that he leaves a bunch of subtle clues, and the occasional glaring clue. There are many subtle clues that Dany's childhood is a lie. The glaring clue, which is supposed to make the reader question the whole situation in the first place and reread everything, is that lemons don't grow in the Riverlands, which is south of Braavos, and Sharna simultaneously informs us they do grow in Dorne. So we should definitely be suspicious that the house with the red door is in Dorne, simple as that. No other evidence is needed for me to consider it a strong possibility, and there is other evidence like the fact that the midnight flight doesn't quite match up, and Dany describes big chunks of Dragonstone being destroyed by the storm but we see no evidence of that from Davos or anyone else.

So until there is some new info (in TWOW), I think it is more likely that the house was in Dorne. Not based on any symbolism or anything shaky, just based on that one line from Sharna.

So... the house with red door in which Willem Darry died was in Dorne. So, the Sealord of Braavos travelled to Dorne to sign the marriage pact? Why would he bother to do that?

12 hours ago, The Map Guy said:

Welcome. You did a great job on Radio Westeros btw.

 

Thank you. Radio Westeros is awesome :-)

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

So... the house with red door in which Willem Darry died was in Dorne. So, the Sealord of Braavos travelled to Dorne to sign the marriage pact? Why would he bother to do that?

Thank you. Radio Westeros is awesome :-)

If that man from Dany's memories was indeed Darry (the physical description seems suspicious, mainly his soft hands when he should have rough callused hands from sword fighting), yes the house was in Dorne, some Targ loyalist giving them shelter.

And NO I do not think the Sealord traveled to Dorne. I think that document was forged and Doran is a sneaky liar. I don't think there every was a secret marriage pact. And the fact that the document appears fake is another big reason I think Dany's childhood was a lie.

I'll say this right now, if that document somehow is revealed to be authentic, then I will change my mind and assume the house with the lemon tree really was in Dorne.

But the combination of the lemon tree, king Robert bringing fruits up from the south and urging Ned to eat some early in AGOT, Sharna's line from ASOS, the lemon conversation from the Mercy chapter, and the fake marriage pact all together make me think there is like a 90% chance the house was in Dorne. I'm not reading into things that aren't there, or over analyzing symbolism or deciphering hidden cryptographic codes that George left behind. IDK why people are generally not open to this idea. 

[Back door hodor]

On 1/28/2019 at 11:49 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Here is my argument from an earlier discussion on this topic:

TL;DR I am suggesting the age difference is closer to 2 months, and some time had passed before everyone made it back to WF.

 

GRRM is a sci-fi writer who often writes about genetic mutations/engineering and inbreeding causing crazy sci-fi abilities and such. ASOIAF is obviously another story in which inherited telepathic abilities are playing a big role in the story, mainly that all the Stark kids are wargs, and Dany hatched dragons. Brandon was definitely a skinchanger, and Ashara is a Dayne, a mysterious house that is purportedly a First Men house yet looks Valyrian, at least as implied by Arianne's description of Darkstar. And House Dayne has a legendary possibly "magic" sword and some not-yet-revealed criteria for who gets to wield it. Could it be based on whoever inherited the right genetic traits mayhaps? Have the Daynes been marrying cousins for thousands of years like have the other noble families of Westeros and keeping that special gene present in the family?

So it is "special" for 2 reasons. 1) GRRM clearly established the B+A relationship for some reason and that reason is almost certainly a baby because seriously what else would it be, and 2) Brandon and Ashara both potentially had special genetic traits they could potentially pass to their offspring, which Jon (if the theory is true) was obviously lucky enough to get, since he is a warg.

Cat's feelings don't really come into it. It is Hoster's feelings that matter. Cat's children must inherit WF or Hoster is going to be super fucking pissed because the previously fantastic marriage he arranged for his daughter would become virtually worthless. None of Cat's children would inherit WF or its incomes, and Cat and Ned themselves wouldn't even be the rulers of WF or be the recipients of its incomes, because baby Jon would be the new Lord of WF. Obviously Hoster/Cat/Ned could claim that Jon is a bastard (which may or may not be true) and try to disqualify him in that manner, but the matter would certainly be up for debate. It was obviously the right move politically for Ned to claim that Jon was not Brandon's. Hoster isn't going to care that Ned was honest if it means his daughter's marriage becomes worthless.

I don't think Jon is going to ride a dragon, though I also think it might be possible you don't need to be a Targ to bond with a dragon. Someone with the wrong DNA cannot wield Dawn because it requires telepathic abilities to activate the sword's "magic", like how you need the right DNA to bond with a dragon, as you just referenced. And I doubt Dawn would be more useful than a dragon above ground, but the Others live and travel underground, so a magic sword that makes heat and light would be super useful to fight them down there, in spaces too tight for a dragon to go.

Arthur lost because of whatever Howland Reed did, presumably. And whatever he did, it negated the advantage of Dawn. Based on Meera's fighting skills, he probably just threw that fucking net over him and stabbed him from behind with his frog spear, would be my guess. And we know the Others haven't fought with nets yet, so it's all good!  

Hi there...so I was honestly wondering what makes you sure sure Brandon was a Skinchanger, personally I have never taken the lines that he and Lyanna liked to ride horses as evidence they were skinchangers(I know you did not use this argument, it's just honestly the only explanation I've read). To me, this seems roughly the same as saying Ramsey is a skinchanger because he likes dogs. 

In the end that doesn't really matter though, and the younger generation of Starks(and Jon) are, where exactly they got this trait isn't all that important I suppose.

I also want to say that while I don't think Jon is Bradons son, I actually do think it would fit with some of the themes of the books if the uber honorable Ned had in fact stolen his nephews birthright.

I have always assumed that is exactly what happened to Aruther Dayne. Meera training with Summer and the reed kids telling Bran stories about thier parents happen in the same chapter, The Reeds are surprised at how little Bran knows and stop short of telling him the whole story though. But yes, Meera and Summer and the net, the greatest, most dangerous knight in the 7k was bested by a mudman with a net and a frog spear.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

49 minutes ago, Back door hodor said:

Hi there...so I was honestly wondering what makes you sure sure Brandon was a Skinchanger, personally I have never taken the lines that he and Lyanna liked to ride horses as evidence they were skinchangers(I know you did not use this argument, it's just honestly the only explanation I've read). To me, this seems roughly the same as saying Ramsey is a skinchanger because he likes dogs. 

In the end that doesn't really matter though, and the younger generation of Starks(and Jon) are, where exactly they got this trait isn't all that important I suppose.

I also want to say that while I don't think Jon is Bradons son, I actually do think it would fit with some of the themes of the books if the uber honorable Ned had in fact stolen his nephews birthright.

I have always assumed that is exactly what happened to Aruther Dayne. Meera training with Summer and the reed kids telling Bran stories about thier parents happen in the same chapter, The Reeds are surprised at how little Bran knows and stop short of telling him the whole story though. But yes, Meera and Summer and the net, the greatest, most dangerous knight in the 7k was bested by a mudman with a net and a frog spear.

Hi there!

First let's keep in mind the mere fact that 100% of the Stark kids are skinchangers, so it is likely (depending on how asoiaf genetics actually works) that both Cat and Ned had skinchanger DNA, so Ned's siblings being skinchangers is a pretty reasonable idea right off the bat. If they only liked to ride horses, then yeah that would be a weak point. But I think they rode horses at skinchanger level, like Dany (a confirmed telepath via her bond to Drogon) at her wedding, when she fearlessly jumps over a fire pit while only describing herself as a fair rider. I think this scene is purposely meant to allude to the abilities of her mother Lyanna. Brandon and Lyanna are described as "a pair of centaurs", which is immediately super suspicious given that they did not grow up in a Dothraki-like culture of horse nomads. And I am highly confident that Lyanna is a skinchanger based on the KotLT incident, where it appears she used her powers to effectively cheat by skinchanging her horse/her opponent's horse, and she may have even done it subconsciously. That incident made Rhaegar unmask her and discover her skinchanging abilities, and that's why he decided to make babies with her. He was hellbent on fulfilling the AAR prophecy and concluded he needed a woman with the right special DNA to succeed, and I think he married Elia (who has Targ blood) for the same reason.

And if Lyanna is a skinchanger, then that line about a "pair of centaurs" definitely implies Brandon was as well. Finally, we have this quote about Brandon:

Quote

You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolfblood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave."

So that's Ned comparing his siblings to known skinchanger Arya, saying they all have "The wolfblood". I think that's pretty clearly meant to imply they were both skinchangers like Arya.

I think Ned stealing Jon's birthright for political reasons and choosing smart politics over honor fits the story much better than him simply keeping a promise to his dead sister and paying the price for it. It also may have contributed to his decision to support Stannis, if the Jon decision had been gnawing at his conscience for 14 years (though obviously the dagger/attempt on Bran's life was the main factor). It would add another layer of nuance to his character.

Lol yes, exactly, I think the greatest knight with the greatest magic sword being defeated by a guy who can't even fight with a sword is quintessential GRRM. It also explains how Howland survived the fight. His job was to kill Arthur (maybe even from behind for extra safety and dishonorable tactics) while the other 6 fought Hightower and Whent and barely overpowered them.

 

[Frey family reunion]

17 hours ago, corbon said:

One of the worst things about this forum is that people take the tiniest potential flaw in the text, utterly misread it into something huge, then create utterly unnecessary conspiracy theories around nothing.

I think you meant to say one of the best things about this forum.  Face facts, GRRM gave his thumbs up to lemongate, and it’s driving you nuts.  

ETA: But on a serious note, GRRM has created a structure where everything at least has to be questioned. There is no omniscient narrator, so the possibility exists that the information we’re receiving in the story is not accurate.  It’s been specifically established in the text that Dany has relied on Viserys for almost everything that she knows about herself.  It would be interesting to find that Dany may be in the same situation as Young Griff.  Someone who unbeknownst to them is playing a part.

[Ygrain]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

If that man from Dany's memories was indeed Darry (the physical description seems suspicious, mainly his soft hands when he should have rough callused hands from sword fighting),

Darry had been ailing for quite some time. If you don't practice, calluses disappear. Ever started playing a guitar after a prolonged pause? :-)

 

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

yes the house was in Dorne, some Targ loyalist giving them shelter.

And NO I do not think the Sealord traveled to Dorne. I think that document was forged and Doran is a sneaky liar. I don't think there every was a secret marriage pact. And the fact that the document appears fake is another big reason I think Dany's childhood was a lie.

Huh? What makes you think that the document is fake?

IMHO, such a secret long-term plan perfectly fits with Doran's character, as well as keeping Arianne unmarried.

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'll say this right now, if that document somehow is revealed to be authentic, then I will change my mind and assume the house with the lemon tree really was in Dorne.

You mean Braavos?

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

But the combination of the lemon tree, king Robert bringing fruits up from the south and urging Ned to eat some early in AGOT, Sharna's line from ASOS, the lemon conversation from the Mercy chapter, and the fake marriage pact all together make me think there is like a 90% chance the house was in Dorne. I'm not reading into things that aren't there, or over analyzing symbolism or deciphering hidden cryptographic codes that George left behind. IDK why people are generally not open to this idea. 

That’s one thing I don’t really get about this forum.  We’re bringing up possibilities in the story.  Some may be correct, most probably aren’t.  But I don’t understand the hostility some of these ideas generate.  The books are set up without an omniscient narrator.  What we learn through these characters should be questioned.  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 hours ago, Ygrain said:

Darry had been ailing for quite some time. If you don't practice, calluses disappear. Ever started playing a guitar after a prolonged pause? :-)

 

Huh? What makes you think that the document is fake?

IMHO, such a secret long-term plan perfectly fits with Doran's character, as well as keeping Arianne unmarried.

You mean Braavos?

It was probably Darry and yes I have lol fair point

Oops yes I meant Braavos

The biggest thing that makes me think it is fake is that Dany does not inspect it for authenticity or even question if it is authentic, while we have several examples of other characters diligently inspecting seals and signatures. 

Varys

Quote

The eunuch Varys took the letter and turned it in his delicate powdered hands. "How kind of Lord Tywin. And his sealing wax is such a lovely shade of gold." Varys gave the seal a close inspection. "It gives every appearance of being genuine."

Yoren (probably concluding this is a fake from LF)

Quote

Yoren fingered the warrant ribbon with its blob of golden wax. "Pretty." He spit.

a maester inspecting Brienne's letter from Tommen

Quote

Brienne showed him the letter, with Tommen's seal and childish signature. The maester hmmmmed and hrrrred, picked at the wax, and finally gave it back. "It seems in order."

Davos waiting in suspense

Quote

The lord wiped his mouth with the back of his hand and picked up the ribbon for a closer squint. Lightning flashed outside, making the arrow loops blaze blue and white for half a heartbeat. One, two, three, four, Davos counted, before the thunder came. When it quieted, he listened to the dripping, and the duller roar beneath his feet, where the waves were smashing against Breakwater's huge stone arches and swirling through its dungeons. He might well end up down there, fettered to a wet stone floor and left to drown when the tide came rushing in. No, he tried to tell himself, a smuggler might die that way, but not a King's Hand. I'm worth more if he sells me to his queen.

The lord fingered the ribbon, frowning at the seals. He was an ugly man, big and fleshy, with an oarsman's thick shoulders and no neck. Coarse grey stubble, going white in patches, covered his cheeks and chin. Above a massive shelf of brow he was bald. His nose was lumpy and red with broken veins, his lips thick, and he had a sort of webbing between the three middle fingers of his right hand. Davos had heard that some of the lords of the Three Sisters had webbed hands and feet, but he had always put that down as just another sailor's story.

The lord leaned back. "Cut him free," he said, "and peel those gloves off him. I want to see his hands."

And here is Dany 

Quote

The parchment was written in the Common Tongue. The queen unrolled it slowly, studying the seals and signatures. When she saw the name Ser Willem Darry, her heart beat a little faster. She read it over once, and then again.

She doesn't do any kind of formal inspection, nor could she even if she wanted to. She doesn't even know the arms of House Martell, as demonstrated 2 seconds later. So she definitely doesn't know what their authentic seal looks like, and Doran knows that Dany lacks this basic diplomatic tool, because she has been wandering around Essos as a homeless woman most of her life, and not receiving regular letters from the various lords of Westeros that one could use to verify the authenticity of future letters/important pacts.

Quote

"Ser Barristan, what are the arms of House Martell?"

"A sun in splendor, transfixed by a spear."

And other than that, to summarize, I don't think it fits Doran's character to bet everything on Viserys and just wait around doing nothing and not helping him for like 2 decades. I think his plan is much more complicated and ends with Arianne being queen outright. Quentyn is an unwitting decoy.

 

[corbon]

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think you meant to say one of the best things about this forum.  Face facts, GRRM gave his thumbs up to lemongate, and it’s driving you nuts.

 

No I meant the worst.

I don't understand the reference to GRRM giving his thumbs up.
But yeah, lemongate and such things drive me nuts. Its not the speculation I don't like, its the incompetent logic that drives me nuts. One of many character flaws. 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

 

ETA: But on a serious note, GRRM has created a structure where everything at least has to be questioned. There is no omniscient narrator, so the possibility exists that the information we’re receiving in the story is not accurate.  It’s been specifically established in the text that Dany has relied on Viserys for almost everything that she knows about herself.  It would be interesting to find that Dany may be in the same situation as Young Griff.  Someone who unbeknownst to them is playing a part.

Sure. 
But base it on something that has an actual base. 
In this case, The house with the red door being in Bravos makes perfect sense and is backed up by other data points, both in her memories and  outside her memories.

Moving it to Dorne because... not even reasons, just... 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

That’s one thing I don’t really get about this forum.  We’re bringing up possibilities in the story.  Some may be correct, most probably aren’t.  But I don’t understand the hostility some of these ideas generate.  The books are set up without an omniscient narrator.  What we learn through these characters should be questioned.  

Absolutely.
But such questioning brings back answers. In this case the answer is that it fits perfectly on all levels and is backed up by other data points. 

[corbon]

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And here is Dany 

She doesn't do any kind of formal inspection,

Err, yes she does. It said right there in your quote that she studied the seals and signatures. Then she hands it to Barristan to check as well - and he sure knows the seals and signatures, as long time former LC of the KG.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

nor could she even if she wanted to. She doesn't even know the arms of House Martell, as demonstrated 2 seconds later. So she definitely doesn't know what their authentic seal looks like,

Sure she does. She's just been reading the frikken document, she doesn't need to know what the arms of House Martell are. She's already explained what it is and what it says.
She asks Barristan because she's realised the personal significance of the sun's son already and needs to hear it verbalised to back her understanding.

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

and Doran knows that Dany lacks this basic diplomatic tool, because she has been wandering around Essos as a homeless woman most of her life, and not receiving regular letters from the various lords of Westeros that one could use to verify the authenticity of future letters/important pacts.

Apart from the fact that she does know this basic diplomatic tool, Doran couldn't possibly know what she knows or does not know, what advisors she has around her, what education she has had, and what she could or could not verify.
He couldn't know, for example, that she didn't have a similar character to Septa Lemore around in the background. Or other advisors. A Griff-equivalent (indeed she has had such, Ser Barristan).

1 hour ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And other than that, to summarize, I don't think it fits Doran's character to bet everything on Viserys and just wait around doing nothing and not helping him for like 2 decades. I think his plan is much more complicated and ends with Arianne being queen outright. Quentyn is an unwitting decoy.

He wants Vengeance, Justice, Fire and Blood. But he's patient and will to play the long game. A pact with the Targaryens fits that. So does waiting for decades until the time is ripe (Viserys/Dany has an army).

He hasn't bet everything on Viserys. He made a move long ago and has been waiting for that move to come to fruition. Now he's redeveloping that move (Viserys is dead now but both Dany and (f)Aegon have armies).

I think Doran's character is to be patient and prepare. Plans are not complicated, but are kept flexible and willing to take whichever advantage becomes dominant enough to give results.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

4 minutes ago, corbon said:

Err, yes she does. It said right there in your quote that she studied the seals and signatures. Then she hands it to Barristan to check as well - and he sure knows the seals and signatures, as long time former LC of the KG.

Sure she does. She's just been reading the frikken document, she doesn't need to know what the arms of House Martell are. She's already explained what it is and what it says.
She asks Barristan because she's realised the personal significance of the sun's son already and needs to hear it verbalised to back her understanding.

Apart from the fact that she does know this basic diplomatic tool, Doran couldn't possibly know what she knows or does not know, what advisors she has around her, what education she has had, and what she could or could not verify.
He couldn't know, for example, that she didn't have a similar character to Septa Lemore around in the background. Or other advisors. A Griff-equivalent (indeed she has had such, Ser Barristan).

He wants Vengeance, Justice, Fire and Blood. But he's patient and will to play the long game. A pact with the Targaryens fits that. So does waiting for decades until the time is ripe (Viserys/Dany has an army).

He hasn't bet everything on Viserys. He made a move long ago and has been waiting for that move to come to fruition. Now he's redeveloping that move (Viserys is dead now but both Dany and (f)Aegon have armies).

I think Doran's character is to be patient and prepare. Plans are not complicated, but are kept flexible and willing to take whichever advantage becomes dominant enough to give results.

We get her inner thoughts and she does not question the authenticity of the document at all, which is slightly stupid on her part. Dany was a homeless woman, so she didn't get regular mail from the various lords of westeros. So what would she use to verify the seals and signatures? Doran knows this, as it is public knowledge. And Barristan has been a KG for a million years and is really stupid when it comes to anything other than fighting.

I think waiting 20 years for Viserys to get an army and then switching it to Dany is a very stupid plan, and one that obviously failed so far because she already got engaged and can't wed Quentyn. He also lied about their troop strength to Dany which would be a dick move.

[corbon]

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

We get her inner thoughts and she does not question the authenticity of the document at all, which is slightly stupid on her part.

Thats nothing more than your opinion, with no demonstrable basis.
Since she's not acting on the document I don't see why she should be terribly concerned about whether its an elaborate fake or not.

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Dany was a homeless woman, so she didn't get regular mail from the various lords of westeros.

Nobody gets regular mail with seals and shit. Basic heraldry is the most of it.

But Dany (and Viserys) has not been hard to find, really. Nobody in Westeros knows who has or has not been communicating with them over the last decade or more. 

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

So what would she use to verify the seals and signatures?

What does anyone use?
Look, forgeries are very easy to use in this world, because there are very few records of everything. The most anyone uses really is a comparison to other documents, and usually not even that - usually a simple visual recollection of what said seal should look like, if that.

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Doran knows this, as it is public knowledge. And Barristan has been a KG for a million years and is really stupid when it comes to anything other than fighting.

Doran doesn't know it. He can't know it. He might suspect it, but couldn't possibly be sure.

Barristan has his shortcomings, but he's diligent, faithful, and knows legal documents. Ned used him to prove the veracity of Roberts will. Barristan recognised King Robert's seal by eye. Barristan was in effect the officiator there, in a matter of sealed legal documents, to the small council. His flaw was not acting when the queen tore it up later.

24 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think waiting 20 years for Viserys to get an army and then switching it to Dany is a very stupid plan, and one that obviously failed so far because she already got engaged and can't wed Quentyn. He also lied about their troop strength to Dany which would be a dick move.

He waited 15 years to get a Targaryen army to ally to. 15 years or whenever it was back then, it seemed likely that that army would be under Viserys, so that was the plan. Now the options are Dany and (f)Aegon, and he's made a play for each in an update of the original plan. That the first play didn't come off doesn't make it stupid.

 

[Ygrain]

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

We get her inner thoughts and she does not question the authenticity of the document at all, which is slightly stupid on her part.

First, she's not the type of person who would think about forgeries the minute she sees a document; second, as you have pointed out yourself, she would be unable to verify a thing, anyway; third, even if it was fake, it offers her her first ally in Westeros; fourth, Doran as Elia's brother has a damn good motive to support the Targs against the Baratheon/Lannister alliance, and now that it's solely the Lannisters on the throne, even more. So, why would she even want to question the authenticity?

 

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

And Barristan has been a KG for a million years and is really stupid when it comes to anything other than fighting.

He is definitely not the brightest cookies but I believe you underestimate him.

7 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think waiting 20 years for Viserys to get an army and then switching it to Dany is a very stupid plan, and one that obviously failed so far because she already got engaged and can't wed Quentyn. He also lied about their troop strength to Dany which would be a dick move.

So, what would you do if your long-term plan went to hell, call quits instead of adjusting it?

There was no facebook, no Westeros Daily. At the time when Quentyn was sent, no-one could know about Dany's decision to marry Hizdahr. But, yeah, Quentyn shouldn't have lied, but, well, lots of stuff that Quentyn shouldn't have done, he was totally out of his depth there.