How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

[James Steller]

I had a conversation with my brother recently which involved whether Mace Tyrell was a good dad or not, and it made me wonder if Mace has ever commented on Loras’s sexual orientation, positive or negative. I don’t have all of the books in my possession so I can’t double check each one. But based on ASOS, Garlan Tyrell is the only one who comes close to mentioning it, at Sansa’s wedding. I suppose it doesn’t matter by the time that Loras is in the Kingsguard, but from what I recall Mace is neutral towards Loras. 

Does that mean he’s ignorant of Loras’ orientation? It seems like common knowledge to anyone who knew Renly and Loras. Does Mace accept it or just ignore it? Have we gotten any hints either way?

[Euron III Greyjoy]

I don't have any evidence to prove it, but I feel like surely he must have known. 

[S. D]

Yes he was aware.

I think he must have been OK with it, if not happy because of the link it gave him to the King's brother. 

[James Steller]

28 minutes ago, S. D said:

Yes he was aware.

I think he must have been OK with it, if not happy because of the link it gave him to the King's brother. 

Seems very progressive of him, especially since the capital of the Faith is part of his domain. You’d think that would have been troublesome at the very least for Loras and his father for the Faith to hear the rumours (though if Mace really did know and really did defy the Faith to treat his son the same as his other ones, it increases my respect for him very much).

[Ser Leftwich]

5 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Seems very progressive of him, especially since the capital of the Faith is part of his domain. You’d think that would have been troublesome at the very least for Loras and his father for the Faith to hear the rumours (though if Mace really did know and really did defy the Faith to treat his son the same as his other ones, it increases my respect for him very much).

The Faith of the Seven has been based in KL since shortly after Aegon's Conquest, not Oldtown.

[James Steller]

11 minutes ago, Ser Leftwich said:

The Faith of the Seven has been based in KL since shortly after Aegon's Conquest, not Oldtown.

Apologies, I forgot about that. I need to reread Fire and Blood again, heh.

[Bernie Mac]

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

I had a conversation with my brother recently which involved whether Mace Tyrell was a good dad or not,

For the time period and society he's in he'd be classed as a decent day, to us he's a bad dad since he was trying to pimp his fifteen your old daughter to the fat king. 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

 

and it made me wonder if Mace has ever commented on Loras’s sexual orientation, positive or negative.

I  think you are perhaps looking at it from our view of it rather than how it was in the past. In the UK there is a common joke about the rampant buggery that happens in boarding schools (were the upper class send their sons), this was still quite common till the 1950's. 

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2005/oct/12/publicschools.schools

The majority of boys who participated in this will have gone on to be married, have children and live typical hetrosexual lives. This kind of behaviour was known but not assumed to mean they were gay, more like 'prison gay'.

 

Mace likely knew but I doubt he saw it as anything other than a phase, he'd expect both Renly and Loras to grow out of it. 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

 

I don’t have all of the books in my possession so I can’t double check each one. But based on ASOS, Garlan Tyrell is the only one who comes close to mentioning it, at Sansa’s wedding. I suppose it doesn’t matter by the time that Loras is in the Kingsguard, but from what I recall Mace is neutral towards Loras. 

Loras is actually the favorite son.

"True," Littlefinger admitted. "The Knight of Flowers is the key there. Mace Tyrell has two older sons, but Loras has always been his favorite. Win him, and Highgarden will be yours."

Which should not be surprising, Mace is an ambitious man concerned with status (like most of his peers to be fair) and Loras' exceptional performances in the Tourneys and his royal connection has boosted the House's status.

Garlan's comments can be taken a few ways

"Tears of joy, ser."

"Your eyes give the lie to your tongue." Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. "My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly . . . but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think."

 

• He's being nice, a young girl has been forced to marry a disfigured dwarf from a House that murdered hers, he's not so much shit talking his brother but comforting a young girl and trying to make it a positive
• Loras is gay, he could never love you
• Its better to be in a marriage where your partner loves you and you not he than vice versa

 

 

6 hours ago, James Steller said:

Does that mean he’s ignorant of Loras’ orientation? It seems like common knowledge to anyone who knew Renly and Loras. Does Mace accept it or just ignore it? Have we gotten any hints either way?

Accepts it as a phase, rather than an orientation. Loras and Renly were not openly gay, there was never going to be an outcome where that happened. A secret is pretty easy to ignore. 

[Stormking902]

17 hours ago, James Steller said:

Seems very progressive of him, especially since the capital of the Faith is part of his domain. You’d think that would have been troublesome at the very least for Loras and his father for the Faith to hear the rumours (though if Mace really did know and really did defy the Faith to treat his son the same as his other ones, it increases my respect for him very much).

You think the faith arnt doing the same thing Ser Loras and Renly are doing accept worse?. 

[James Steller]

2 minutes ago, Stormking902 said:

You think the faith arnt doing the same thing Ser Loras and Renly are doing accept worse?. 

I could believe that. But when it comes to same-sex relations within religion, there is always hypocritical grand standing.

[Lord Varys]

There is no indication that the Faith has issues with male or female homosexuality. There is no reason Renly or Loras have to keep their relationship a secret from their families.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

22 hours ago, James Steller said:

I had a conversation with my brother recently which involved whether Mace Tyrell was a good dad or not, and it made me wonder if Mace has ever commented on Loras’s sexual orientation, positive or negative. I don’t have all of the books in my possession so I can’t double check each one. But based on ASOS, Garlan Tyrell is the only one who comes close to mentioning it, at Sansa’s wedding. I suppose it doesn’t matter by the time that Loras is in the Kingsguard, but from what I recall Mace is neutral towards Loras. 

Does that mean he’s ignorant of Loras’ orientation? It seems like common knowledge to anyone who knew Renly and Loras. Does Mace accept it or just ignore it? Have we gotten any hints either way?

Mace knows nothing .

[S. D]

Er, Mace did know. The link I gave up above is an interview where George R R Martin says he and the Queen of Thorns were aware of Loras' sexuality. 

[Bernie Mac]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that the Faith has issues with male or female homosexuality.

There is. From the world book;

There are other customs besides that mark the Dornish as different. They are not greatly concerned if a child is born in wedlock or out of it, especially if the child is born to a paramour. Many lords and even some ladies have paramours, chosen for love and lust rather than for breeding or alliance. And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path, they have had little effect.

Quote

 

There is no reason Renly or Loras have to keep their relationship a secret from their families.

Though Stannis and possibly Robert are aware of the gossip, I doubt it is something that Renly has revealed to them. Same for Loras. 

They are not an openly gay couple. 

[Ran]

Exactly right. There is a stigma in much of Westeros, partially motivated by the Faith seeing it as a venal sin. It is clear in the text, and GRRM has stated it explicitly. The fact that some people ignore the stigma does not mean it is not a stigma.

[DominusNovus]

On 1/25/2019 at 6:49 PM, Ser Leftwich said:

The Faith of the Seven has been based in KL since shortly after Aegon's Conquest, not Oldtown.

Not necessarily shortly after, wasn’t it after Baelor’s reign that the Sept of Baelor was built and the High Septon relocated to KL? Thats pretty much halfway through the Targ dynasty’s rule of the 7K.

[Lord Varys]

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

There is. From the world book;

There are other customs besides that mark the Dornish as different. They are not greatly concerned if a child is born in wedlock or out of it, especially if the child is born to a paramour. Many lords and even some ladies have paramours, chosen for love and lust rather than for breeding or alliance. And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path, they have had little effect.

Though Stannis and possibly Robert are aware of the gossip, I doubt it is something that Renly has revealed to them. Same for Loras. 

They are not an openly gay couple. 

Well, all we can draw from that is that the Dornish are more tolerant - it is not stated that Faith actively condemns male homosexuality (female homosexuality should be non-existent/irrelevant, anyway), nor that homosexuality is considered a sin. Why the septons and septas strive to change the ways of the Dornish there is not clear - is it because of religious doctrine/morality or just because Andal/First Men culture independent from the Faith is not exactly a fan of homosexuality? We don't know. After all, FaB has just made it clear that the Andals also adopted the First Night practice where they found it, never mind that it is not part of the religious doctrine of the Faith.

And in general - homosexuality is basically a modern concept, just as marriage for love is. A differentiation between heterosexuality and homosexuality only makes sense if romantic marriage for love is the default setting in the society. But that's not the case in Westeros, especially not for the nobility. They marry who they are commanded to marry, not whom they 'love'. Marriage is legal practice to acquire wealth and power, to seal and forge alliance, to increase the status of your family, to get rid of children you no longer want to feed and clothe, etc.

You are punished when you disobey your lordly father or brother and refuse to marry, but nobody is faulting you if you hang out with your male friends and take them into the bedchamber rather than your lady wife if you have a lady wife. Insisting on living as husband and husband with some guy and refusing to marry could raise the ire of your peers, but just doing as you please while you are married doesn't seem to be an issue.

We know from George that Olenna and Mace know about Loras' sexual/romantic preferences - and we know that Loras is Mace's favorite son. Stannis obviously knows, too, meaning that Robert should know that as well. He lived with the adult Renly in KL for years.

[desire]

Puff fish wanted power/glory did he care how it came to be?

[Bernie Mac]

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, all we can draw from that is that the Dornish are more tolerant - it is not stated that Faith actively condemns male homosexuality (female homosexuality should be non-existent/irrelevant, anyway), nor that homosexuality is considered a sin.

 And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path

The Septons are against it, to say they have no issues with it is ignoring the text.  It is a cause for concern, just like it was viewed in our own middle ages.

The idea that GRRM has created this world largely based on the culture and society of our own middle ages, complete with sexism, elitism, racism but missing out other prejudices such as 'homophobia' is kind of weird. 

Same sex relations are taboo, this should be pretty apparent due to the lack of open/public same sex relationships in the series. The men and women who are gay are either discreet or suppress their nature in an intolerant society. 

 

 

8 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

And in general - homosexuality is basically a modern concept, just as marriage for love is.

Absolutely true, which why your assertion that the faith no issue with it is puzzling.  Man lying with another man is taught as abhorrent, that a man and woman is the natural path. 

 Yet there was one problem: at the age of nine-and-ten, Laenor preferred the company of squires of his own age, and was said never to have known a woman intimately, nor to have any bastards. But to this, Grand Maester Mellos was said to have remarked, "What of it? I am not fond of fish, but when fish is served, I eat it."

Men indulging in same sex relations was considered a kink, more taboo than cheating on your wife with whores, possibly even more so than Robert's predilection for sleeping with young virgins but nothing to prevent them from doing their duty, marrying, producing and raising more followers for the Faith. 

 

Spoiler

We know from George that Olenna and Mace know about Loras' sexual/romantic preferences - and we know that Loras is Mace's favorite son. Stannis obviously knows, too, meaning that Robert should know that as well. He lived with the adult Renly in KL for years.

They know about the gossip. I doubt very much there has been an instance of Loras telling his family of his romantic feelings for Renly, it would be more about him being his mentor and close friend. Them being able to read between the lines of what is going on is how they know.

 

 

[Ran]

40 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

 And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path

The Septons are against it, to say they have no issues with it is ignoring the text.  It is a cause for concern, just like it was viewed in our own middle ages.

The idea that GRRM has created this world largely based on the culture and society of our own middle ages, complete with sexism, elitism, racism but missing out other prejudices such as 'homophobia' is kind of weird. 

Same sex relations are taboo, this should be pretty apparent due to the lack of open/public same sex relationships in the series. The men and women who are gay are either discreet or suppress their nature in an intolerant society. 

 

Well put. It's exactly what I've always said, and what GRRM has indicated.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Men indulging in same sex relations was considered a kink, more taboo than cheating on your wife with whores, possibly even more so than Robert's predilection for sleeping with young virgins but nothing to prevent them from doing their duty, marrying, producing and raising more followers for the Faith. 

Word. Jaime seems to have a bigger issue with Cersei marrying a homosexual then an adulterer.

Quote

Oberyn Martell? The man's infamous, and not just for poisoning his sword. He has more bastards than Robert, and beds with boys as well.

 

1 hour ago, Bernie Mac said:

Same sex relations are taboo, this should be pretty apparent due to the lack of open/public same sex relationships in the series. The men and women who are gay are either discreet or suppress their nature in an intolerant society. 

In Westeros, not in the series. Daxos is much more open about his sexuality then Renly. All of Qarth is much more open then Westeros, faith or north. However maybe not ironborn? The maester did get raped on Victarions ship. (Totally plausible being sailors, although women sail too) The Volantis too are very open, Sweets the hermaphrodite is used for pleasure. Also when Tyrion joined the Secons Sons Plumm gave out the word that hes Jorahs butt boy

Then the Dothraki, or at least Dany in particular, 

Quote

Irri slept soundly beside her, her lips slightly parted, one dark brown nipple peeping out above the sleeping silks. For a moment Dany was tempted, but it was Drogo she wanted, or perhaps Daario. Not Irri. The maid was sweet and skillful, but all her kisses tasted of duty.

Dany is openly bi, (maybe Jon is too but thats another story, the whole nw is discreet as you said) and Irris job as a Dothraki handmaiden includes the lords kiss. If lesbians are accepted why not gays? After all the Bloodriders share everything