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James Steller

How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

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11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 And when it comes to matters of love, that a man might lie with another man, or a woman with another woman, is likewise not cause for concern; while the septons have often wished to shepherd the Dornishmen to the righteous path

The Septons are against it, to say they have no issues with it is ignoring the text.  It is a cause for concern, just like it was viewed in our own middle ages.

The sentence given there refers to all the other things in the paragraph as well - to the way the Dornish treat bastards and paramours, etc., we don't really know whether homosexuality is that big of a deal for the Faith or not.

We have no quotations from holy scriptures or proclamations or sermons from High Septons condemning it. That is it seen as not normal is obvious - it is not normal in our modern world either, insofar as only a tiny fraction of the population are homosexual - but we have no real reason to believe it is sanctioned or forbidden.

Just as in our own middle ages sins of the flesh were not exactly seen as that vile. Homosexual acts only became a crime to be punished in the 13th century when, due to the crusades, it was seen as a sin connected to Muslims and their practices. From there it started to be seen as a common crime laid at the feet of all heretics (e.g. the 'crimes' the Knights Templars were accused of when King Philip destroyed them). Prior to that homosexual acts were just a sin, as was any other extramarital (and also some forms of marital) sex.

In that sense, I don't think we should imagine homosexuality to be worse than, say, extramarital 'normal sex' in Westeros. Like the Christianity, the Faith condemns sex unanimously when it does not take place in marriages. We see this very well in the High Sparrow's view of Cersei and women in general.

More importantly, if homosexuality had been an absolute no-go in the eyes of the First Men and the Andals then the few Rhoynar (whose culture and language was forbidden and crushed by subsequent Prince of Dorne) who came to Dorne shouldn't have been able to change the view of the Dornishmen on that front. Prior to the arrival of the Rhoynar the traditions of the First Men and the Andals were rooted as deeply in Dorne than it is all the other Andal kingdoms. And we actually don't see more tolerance towards homosexuals in Dorne than elsewhere - perhaps mostly because aside from bisexual Oberyn (and perhaps Daemon Sand, although considering that this guy doesn't like this said to his face he actually may have been sexually abused/raped by Oberyn)

But even if we had as strong a taboo on homosexuality in the Faith as we have on incest - Septon Oswyck of Dragonstone (and before him Septon Murmison) could still officiate at incestuous weddings, knowing fully well that this was an abominable sin. In light of that the fact that Daeron the Gay and Jeremy Norridge were actually *married* doesn't seem to be that far-fetched at all. All Aegon V needed to get to pull that off was to have a septon as, well, corrupt/open to innovations as Murmison and Oswyck were.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Same sex relations are taboo, this should be pretty apparent due to the lack of open/public same sex relationships in the series. The men and women who are gay are either discreet or suppress their nature in an intolerant society. 

Oh, but not because they fear to be punished. Just because that thing is not normal - which it isn't even today considering that the majority doesn't do it.

And if one looks at the - from a modern point of view - rather unmanly public depiction of emotions all those knights show in those medieval romances, then being emotional invested with a man to a point that seems very much out of place in our day and age, chances are not that bad that things we would consider improper in our era were not exactly a reason for concern back in the day.

And as Clinton revealed in our day, it is up to debate whether oral sex is sex at all. Even the Bible only condemns a man for lying with another man as he should with a woman - but you don't even have to necessarily lie down for oral sex.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

 Yet there was one problem: at the age of nine-and-ten, Laenor preferred the company of squires of his own age, and was said never to have known a woman intimately, nor to have any bastards. But to this, Grand Maester Mellos was said to have remarked, "What of it? I am not fond of fish, but when fish is served, I eat it."

Men indulging in same sex relations was considered a kink, more taboo than cheating on your wife with whores, possibly even more so than Robert's predilection for sleeping with young virgins but nothing to prevent them from doing their duty, marrying, producing and raising more followers for the Faith. 

Mellos talks about a royal marriage above, not sexual preferences. It is irrelevant whether Laenor Velaryon likes to sleep with men, boys, horses, or nobody at all. The marriage is also not supposed to make either him or Rhaenyra happy. Happiness is not the goal if arranged marriages.

He depicts a certain naive view as how sexuality goes in the sense that people being married will (eventually) also have (a healthy) sex (life) with each other. But this is not a given, and they should have known that. It underlines that the concept of homosexuality as such is not understood/does not exist in Westeros, just as romantic love isn't really something that is supposed to play a role in arranged marriages.

Men like Stannis - who have essentially force themselves to have sex with a wife they cannot stand/are not attracted to should be very common. You do that if you think/feel/want a trueborn son, but if you have other heirs or you don't need heirs (as a younger son, say) then many such arranged marriages should be childless.

11 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:
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We know from George that Olenna and Mace know about Loras' sexual/romantic preferences - and we know that Loras is Mace's favorite son. Stannis obviously knows, too, meaning that Robert should know that as well. He lived with the adult Renly in KL for years.

They know about the gossip. I doubt very much there has been an instance of Loras telling his family of his romantic feelings for Renly, it would be more about him being his mentor and close friend. Them being able to read between the lines of what is going on is how they know.

This is just conjecture - and a false one at that considering that both Margaery and Olenna obviously know about Loras' feelings for Renly as the former essentially lets slip when they talk to Sansa. If they know about Loras then they know about Loras - they don't just know rumors about Loras (although they would certainly know about those, too). Loras grew up at Highgarden. His father may have been right there, seeing it with his own eyes when Loras kissed his first page, groom, squire, etc. Just as Stannis may have seen that with Renly.

You pretty much have no privacy living at a castle as a noble child. You are surrounded by people wherever you go, and people talk. Even if the Tyrells and Stannis/Robert had not seen Loras/Renly kissing and sleeping with people with their own eyes, they would have gotten reports from servants, stewards, maesters, masters-at-arms, etc. Reports that would have been more than just rumors.

We see this in FaB with Alyssa Velaryon and Rhaena. Larissa Velaryon was not sent back to Driftmark to marry some Tarth because of some rumors. She was sent away because Rhaena was publicly showing her favorite too much affection, and Alyssa later tried to prevent that kind of thing with Alysanne by dismissing her companions much faster than had been done with Rhaena's companions earlier in her life.

This doesn't mean Alyssa and Rhaena ever openly talked about this thing - or that Mace and Loras had a father-son talk about buggery at one time. It could be the case - but we don't know at that point. In the case of Renly-Loras it seems very obvious that the glue binding the rose to the stag was Loras' deep love for Renly - and considering that this would have been the deciding factor (it was Loras convincing Mace to help make Renly king - Olenna was not in favor of that idea) it is not far-fetched that Loras and Mace also openly talked about the nature of Loras' relationship to Renly when this was all decided.

The Tyrells are very close to each other and work very well together as a family, and if Olenna, Alerie, Margaery, Garlan, etc. may all have been involved in the murder of Joffrey, chances are that they have little to no issue to actually talk about Loras' romantic and sexual preferences. And while chances are very high that Renly was Loras' first love, this doesn't mean Renly was the first man Loras kissed or had sex with.

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7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The sentence given there refers to all the other things in the paragraph as well

No, that's not how the English language works. It is a clause of that sentence, regarding the Dornish being more open towards homosexual relationships, and so is there specifically for that sentence. If it was supposed to refer to everything in the paragraph, it would instead have been a sentence on its own, summing up all that behavior as being the kind of things the septons were opposed to.

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6 minutes ago, Ran said:

 

No, that's not how the English language works. It is a clause of that sentence, regarding the Dornish being more open towards homosexual relationships, and so is there specifically for that sentence. If it was supposed to refer to everything in the paragraph, it would instead have been a sentence on its own, summing up all that behavior as being the kind of things the septons were opposed to.

Correct. But it’s  not even the case that Lord Varys’ Reading should have led to the conclusion he has reached. If homosexuality is lumped in with bastardy etc. As “cause for concern” it’s obviously something the Faith oppose. There is some wilful denial/misinterpretation if the text going on here

Edited by HelenaExMachina

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Just now, HelenaExMachina said:

Correct. But it’s  not even the case that Lord Varys’ Reading should have led Tovar’s the conclusion he has reached. If homosexuality is lumped in with bastardy etc. As “cause for concern” it’s obviously something the Faith oppose. There is some wilful denial/misinterpretation if the text going on here

Good point. If all of that behavior is "unrighteous" -- and really, it is, but homosexuality is being singled out as especially unrighteous -- then it's still a matter of concern for the Faith.

It's just not an enormous one. The Faith seems to treat such things as venial sins, rather than mortal sins, to borrow from Catholic terminology.

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

No, that's not how the English language works. It is a clause of that sentence, regarding the Dornish being more open towards homosexual relationships, and so is there specifically for that sentence. If it was supposed to refer to everything in the paragraph, it would instead have been a sentence on its own, summing up all that behavior as being the kind of things the septons were opposed to.

Well, it is separated by the use of a semicolon. Does this mean it has to be a clause of the same sentence?

But we don't really know what 'the righteous path' means there, right? To ostracize homosexuals? To kill them? Punish them some other way? Or to just not do it as openly as the Dornish supposedly do it - as I said above, unfortunately we have no indication that Dorne is in any way a gay wonderland compared to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in the primary text. We only have Oberyn Martell, who at best is a somewhat closeted bisexual. There are no Dornishmen openly living together with paramours of the same sex, say.

What does this mean? And how can homosexuality be more accepted in Dorne when Daemon Sand does not want to be reminded that he may have been once the lover of Oberyn Martell? His affair with Arianne Martell indicates that he is not one of the overly pious Dornishmen not liking this kind of thing for religious reasons. Hence the idea above that he may have been abused/raped by the Red Viper.

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's just not an enormous one. The Faith seems to treat such things as venial sins, rather than mortal sins, to borrow from Catholic terminology.

I'm fine with that. That more or less is what I meant in my original rather short statement. The Faith in general sees extramarital sex as sinful - regardless what kind of sex (we have no idea how worse extramarital vaginal sex is in comparison to oral or anal sex, nor do we know how well they differentiate all that). Might be that homosexual fornication is a tidbit worse than heterosexual fornication, but it is not something that cannot be forgiven nor is it something that it is actually seen as a crime to be punished.

And in that sense it is no big deal. In fact, even less of a deal than in many real world countries to this day! It is not the fear of punishment and execution that pushes homosexual relationships in the private sphere in Westeros (as it is our day and age in many countries), it is shame and the feeling that you do something that's not 'normal' and not something that's permitted by your faith. But you also do not proudly and openly and with your lady wife at your side go into a brothel in this world, nor do you flaunt your mistresses or paramours or bastards in the face of your lady wife and trueborn children - unless you are an ass and/or a lord or king who can do that kind of thing without fear of being ostracized or chastised.

On the religious level it seems that fornication and adultery are seen as pretty big issues - and it is actually only FaB that really hammered that home. As reader of the main series we always have Robert the Lusty and Catelyn's references to a man's needs in battle, etc. in front of our eyes, but the apparent faithfulness of Aegon the Conqueror, King Aenys, and Jaehaerys I to their respective wives actually indicates that this culture does not really see male fornication and adultery as a great manly thing - and Rogar Baratheon comes across as a very despicable human being in this whole episode about the deflowering of the Lyseni girls.

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Just now, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is separated by the use of a semicolon. Does this mean it has to be a clause of the same sentence?

Yes.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The sentence given there refers to all the other things in the paragraph as well - to the way the Dornish treat bastards and paramours, etc., we don't really know whether homosexuality is that big of a deal for the Faith or not.

I doubt the Faith approves of children out of wedlock or cheating on your spouse. The Faith absolutely has an issue with these practices just like they have an issue with same sex relationships.

Your original point;

There is no indication that the Faith has issues with male or female homosexuality. There is no reason Renly or Loras have to keep their relationship a secret from their families.

is not supported by the text, the Faith does take issue with it. 

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We have no quotations from holy scriptures or proclamations or sermons from High Septons condemning it. That is it seen as not normal is obvious - it is not normal in our modern world either, insofar as only a tiny fraction of the population are homosexual - but we have no real reason to believe it is sanctioned or forbidden.

Sure we do, the very absence of an openly gay relationship in Westeros is a very clear indication that its not accepted. There being zero  confirmed examples of this in Westeros despite there being around three thousand named characters is an obvious red flag.

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Just as in our own middle ages sins of the flesh were not exactly seen as that vile. Homosexual acts only became a crime to be punished in the 13th century when, due to the crusades, it was seen as a sin connected to Muslims and their practices. From there it started to be seen as a common crime laid at the feet of all heretics (e.g. the 'crimes' the Knights Templars were accused of when King Philip destroyed them). Prior to that homosexual acts were just a sin, as was any other extramarital (and also some forms of marital) sex.

The ancients of Rome and Greece were tolerant  of it, the kingdoms of medieval   Europe were not, many viewed it as sodamy with a punishment of death.  The reason they did not need a word for 'homosexualty' in this period was because few people were powerful or stupid enough to go public with it. 

The absence of it is actually a sign of how intolerant a society is about the act.  There are few  openly gay people in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, and Yemen, the reason being is that these nations are hugely intolerant on the subject.

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In that sense, I don't think we should imagine homosexuality to be worse than, say, extramarital 'normal sex' in Westeros. Like the Christianity, the Faith condemns sex unanimously when it does not take place in marriages. We see this very well in the High Sparrow's view of Cersei and women in general.

The High Septon was clearly angry with Cersei's extra marital affair. The Faith quite clearly had issue with it. 

You seem to be supporting my point with that example rather than your own of the Faith having no issue with it. 

 

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But even if we had as strong a taboo on homosexuality in the Faith as we have on incest - Septon Oswyck of Dragonstone (and before him Septon Murmison) could still officiate at incestuous weddings, knowing fully well that this was an abominable sin. In light of that the fact that Daeron the Gay and Jeremy Norridge were actually *married* doesn't seem to be that far-fetched at all. All Aegon V needed to get to pull that off was to have a septon as, well, corrupt/open to innovations as Murmison and Oswyck were.

Given the fact that this has never happened (to our knowledge) in Westeros suggests it is seen as less acceptable. The fact that in the closet powerful and influential lords no not to even try something like that is an indication of what their world would think of such a practice.

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Mellos talks about a royal marriage above, not sexual preferences. It is irrelevant whether Laenor Velaryon likes to sleep with men, boys, horses, or nobody at all. The marriage is also not supposed to make either him or Rhaenyra happy. Happiness is not the goal if arranged marriages.

Right, but his wording implies that a man and a woman are the default setting, that whatever 'kinks' Laenor has should not stop him doing his duty. 

Laenor was not openly gay and was also the son of a hugely powerful Lord and a Grandson of a King. His status ensured the Faith could not really do anything about it. 

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This is just conjecture - and a false one at that considering that both Margaery and Olenna obviously know about Loras' feelings for Renly

When does Olenna mention it? 

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras."
"Loras is young," Lady Olenna said crisply, "and very good at knocking men off horses with a stick. That does not make him wise. As to your father, would that I'd been born a peasant woman with a big wooden spoon, I might have been able to beat some sense into his fat head."
 
Olenna makes zero mention of Loras' feelings about Renly. 
 
What does Margaery say explicitly about Loras' feelings for Renly?
 
Renly was also his mentor and best friend, people do get upset when such people die regardless of sexuality.

 

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 Loras grew up at Highgarden.

No, at Storm's End. He was Renly's squire.

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His father may have been right there, seeing it with his own eyes when Loras kissed his first page, groom, squire, etc. Just as Stannis may have seen that with Renly.

You are accusing me of conjecture and then type this? 

 

 

Edited by Bernie Mac

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42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is separated by the use of a semicolon. Does this mean it has to be a clause of the same sentence?

 

Ran already answered you, but in general, a semicolon is used when you are basically changing the subject mid-sentence, but the new subject has a strong connection/influence/relationship/comment on the first subject.

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1 minute ago, Three-Fingered Pete said:

Ran already answered you, but in general, a semicolon is used when you are basically changing the subject mid-sentence, but the new subject has a strong connection/influence/relationship/comment on the first subject.

That is how I use it, too. Does this mean the clause after the semicolon can grammatically not also refer to the sentences before the homosexuality thing, sentences whose content also refers to things septons and septas clearly would not see as the Dornish being on the righteous path?

I'd find it odd if the message the author wanted to send here that the Faith only wants to teach the Dornishmen that they should not practice homosexuality the way they do and not also change their attitudes on bastards and paramours, etc.

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

I doubt the Faith approves of children out of wedlock or cheating on your spouse. The Faith absolutely has an issue with these practices just like they have an issue with same sex relationships.

Your original point;

There is no indication that the Faith has issues with male or female homosexuality. There is no reason Renly or Loras have to keep their relationship a secret from their families.

is not supported by the text, the Faith does take issue with it. 

Yeah, which is why I already said above I should have been more precise. I meant that the Faith does not see homosexual acts as punishable crimes. The Faith's moral views have no effect on the existence of brothels or the right of the First Night or possible punishments for the fathering of bastards so their religious teachings don't really have all that much a bite to it.

Which was my entire point. Renly and Loras are members of great and powerful families. They have no reason to fear anything if word about their relationship gets out.

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Sure we do, the very absence of an openly gay relationship in Westeros is a very clear indication that its not accepted. There being zero  confirmed examples of this in Westeros despite there being around three thousand named characters is an obvious red flag.

Well, there is Queen Lorea. Nobody hindered him from dressing up as a whore. And I'd say that Laenor-Joffrey and Laenor-Qarl pretty much were open homosexual relationships. You don't have to fuck under the stars to make a relationship explicit.

And since marriage is just a legal institution to produce trueborn offspring there is really no need for homosexuals to actually marry. Even in our world it were not necessary to have gay marriage if marriage had not been reinvented as being the union of two people living together for love.

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The ancients of Rome and Greece were tolerant  of it, the kingdoms of Europe were not, many viewed it as sodamy with a punishment of death.  The reason they did not need a word for 'homosexualty' in this period was because few people were powerful or stupid enough to go public with it. 

I laid out when and how sodomy became a crime in the middle ages (with the crusades, in the 13th century). For most of the middles ages - they are supposed to start around 500 CE and end around 1500 CE - it was just a sin among many. Nothing which was persecuted by the states.

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The absence of it is actually a sign of how intolerant a society is about the act.  There are few  openly gay people in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, and Yemen, the reason being is that these nations are hugely intolerant on the subject.

Yeah. Because they imprison or kill people doing that kind of thing - unlike in Westeros.

But, of course, there are also things outside the legal sphere, things that are only condemned in a moral or religious sense that also make people feel guilty or unpleasant about something.

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The High Septon was clearly angry with Cersei's extra marital affair. The Faith quite clearly had issue with it. 

You seem to be supporting my point with that example rather than your own of the Faith having no issue with it. 

The point here was that we have no reason to believe the Faith's viewpoint on heterosexual fornication is worse than its view on homosexual fornication.

I never said the Faith was sex positive or looking favorable on sex that happened outside of marriage.

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Given the fact that this has never happened (to our knowledge) in Westeros suggests it is seen as less acceptable. The fact that in the closet powerful and influential lords no not to even try something like that is an indication of what their world would think of such a practice.

Well, perhaps most lords trying to do something like that thought it to be ridiculous to marry another man. Just because you are homosexual doesn't mean you must have a view of marriage that allows homosexuals to marry each other. That is a rather new phenomenon.

Keep in mind that romances would be the sphere of affairs not marriages in a world full of arranged marriages. Love marriages mostly happen in fairy-tales in Westeros. In that sense, the way the average nobleman - be he gay or straight - would not look for love and romance in marriage but rather in a lover or paramour. And, of course, he would also look for sexual gratification with prostitutes rather than his wife if he was neither attracted to her nor able to have the kind of sex with her he wanted to have.

In that sense, there would be strikingly little reason for a gay man to actually marry another man in this world - especially if you were also a lord and needed a wife to have the trueborn children you may or may not want.

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Right, but his wording implies that a man and a woman are the default setting, that whatever 'kinks' Laenor has should not stop him doing his duty. 

Sure, but that goes for every sexual disposition. The idea those people have is that married spouses will have sex, overlooking the fact that while this may have happen often enough it doesn't happen always.

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Laenor was not openly gay and was also the son of a hugely powerful Lord and a Grandson of a King. His status ensured the Faith could not really do anything about it. 

I'd say Laenor Velaryon was as openly gay as you can be without actually having gay sex in public.

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When does Olenna mention it? 

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras."
"Loras is young," Lady Olenna said crisply, "and very good at knocking men off horses with a stick. That does not make him wise. As to your father, would that I'd been born a peasant woman with a big wooden spoon, I might have been able to beat some sense into his fat head."
 
Olenna makes zero mention of Loras' feelings about Renly. 
 
What does Margaery say explicitly about Loras' feelings for Renly?
 
Renly was also his mentor and best friend, people do get upset when such people die regardless of sexuality.

Margaery says Loras liked Renly well. And Olenna heard that and did not contradict it.

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No, at Storm's End. He was Renly's squire.

Since he was an infant? And you do know that Ser Loras lived at Highgarden, giving him more than ample time to talk about his love to Renly with his family and/or to actually entertain Renly as a guest there, allowing his family to find out what was going on even if he never talked about that. If they had a proper relationship - which seems to have been the case - then they likely visited with each other after Loras had left Storm's End. And while they were separated they would have written each other love letters and the like.

By the way - the fact that they did not live together at KL early on in AGoT is a possible clue that Renly was not that strong into Loras than Loras was into him. If I were Renly and Loras had been my sun, too, I'd not have liked to be parted from him.

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You are accusing me of conjecture and then type this? 

I just point out the fact that you are never alone in a castle as a young noble and that young children exploring their sexuality are not adult homosexuals who know how to hide in the closet.

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20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is how I use it, too. Does this mean the clause after the semicolon can grammatically not also refer to the sentences before the homosexuality thing, sentences whose content also refers to things septons and septas clearly would not see as the Dornish being on the righteous path?

 

Again, Ran already answered you. If used correctly, the use of a semicolon only refers to the specific sentence in which it is placed. In order to sum up previous thoughts you would need a summation sentence or paragraph.

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5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

Yeah, which is why I already said above I should have been more precise. I meant that the Faith does not see homosexual acts as punishable crimes.

Who has been arguing to the contrary? 

The Faith has no martial power, they can't punish anyone. What they can do is preach and influence and sway the majority of people's thoughts on the matter. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Faith's moral views have no effect on the existence of brothels or the right of the First Night or possible punishments for the fathering of bastards so their religious teachings don't really have all that much a bite to it.

Literally no one has claimed anything to the contrary. Pretty much everyone accepts the above. 

An institution does not have to have the authority to punish to be intolerant. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Which was my entire point. Renly and Loras are members of great and powerful families. They have no reason to fear anything if word about their relationship gets out.

Of course they do. Renly's bid to be king is based on public opinion, he can't be openly gay. 

In reality no Lord could be, the Faith almost brought the Targaryens to their knee's and they had Dragons. A random lord needs the support of their vassals, smallfolk, peers and betters. The Faith preaching against an individual lord is likely to lose some of that support and become vulnerable. 

Why are there no openly gay nobles in Westeros if there are no consequences to it? 

 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there is Queen Lorea. Nobody hindered him from dressing up as a whore.

He's regarded as one of the worst Lannister kings

Some of the Lannister kings were famed for their wisdom, some for their valor, all for their open-handedness...save perhaps for King Norwin Lannister, better known as Norwin the Niggardly. Yet Casterly Rock also housed many a weak, cruel, and feeble king. Loreon IV was better known as Loreon the Lackwit, and his grandson Loreon V was dubbed Queen Lorea, for he was fond of dressing in his wife's clothing and wandering the docks of Lannisport in the guise of a common prostitute. (After their reigns, the name Loreon became notably less common amongst Lannister princes.) A later monarch, Tyrion II, was known as the Tormentor. Though a strong king, famed for prowess with his battle-axe, his true delight was torture, and it was whispered of him that he desired no woman unless he first made her bleed.

 

This is not a sign of tolerance. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

And I'd say that Laenor-Joffrey and Laenor-Qarl pretty much were open homosexual relationships. You don't have to fuck under the stars to make a relationship explicit.

Except they were not. They were in the closet, one was actually married. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'd say Laenor Velaryon was as openly gay as you can be without actually having gay sex in public.

Did he tell anyone he was in a relationship with another man? 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Margaery says Loras liked Renly well. And Olenna heard that and did not contradict it.

Dude you can be incredibly frustrating sometimes.

"Renly was brave and gentle, Grandmother," said Margaery. "Father liked him as well, and so did Loras." 

Either Renly was sleeping with father and son or you are reading far too much into an innocuous line.

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Since he was an infant?

No, but from an a young age. Typically the age hormones start kicking in. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

And you do know that Ser Loras lived at Highgarden, giving him more than ample time to talk about his love to Renly with his family and/or to actually entertain Renly as a guest there, allowing his family to find out what was going on even if he never talked about that.

Yet there is zero indication he did so. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

If they had a proper relationship - which seems to have been the case -

Rather than go down this avenue again, can you first clarify what you mean by proper relationship. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

then they likely visited with each other after Loras had left Storm's End. And while they were separated they would have written each other love letters and the like.

Or just letters. Ned wrote letters as well. 

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I just point out the fact that you are never alone in a castle as a young noble and that young children exploring their sexuality are not adult homosexuals who know how to hide in the closet.

They do if they are told it is unnatural.

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Mace Tyrell knows.  Also by Westerosi standards, homosexuality is definitely frowned upon.  Arguing to the contrary is quite "the reach."  I know we're all bored and trying to kill time until the TWoW drops but come on now......if it is being overlooked for people like Renly/Loras it is because of their high status.  

Edited by HelmHammerhand

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On 1/28/2019 at 3:14 PM, Lord Varys said:

Well, it is separated by the use of a semicolon. Does this mean it has to be a clause of the same sentence?

But we don't really know what 'the righteous path' means there, right? To ostracize homosexuals? To kill them? Punish them some other way? Or to just not do it as openly as the Dornish supposedly do it - as I said above, unfortunately we have no indication that Dorne is in any way a gay wonderland compared to the rest of the Seven Kingdoms in the primary text. We only have Oberyn Martell, who at best is a somewhat closeted bisexual. There are no Dornishmen openly living together with paramours of the same sex, say.

What does this mean? And how can homosexuality be more accepted in Dorne when Daemon Sand does not want to be reminded that he may have been once the lover of Oberyn Martell? His affair with Arianne Martell indicates that he is not one of the overly pious Dornishmen not liking this kind of thing for religious reasons. Hence the idea above that he may have been abused/raped by the Red Viper.

Oberyn DID NOT rape Daemon. Oberyn is never known as a rapist. Daemon doesn't want to talk about it because he feels its shameful. Just because Dorne is more progressive doesn't mean its fully accepted. Otherwise Oberyn would parade around his male paramours like he does his female ones. 

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Just now, Headfallsoff said:

Oberyn DID NOT rape Daemon. Oberyn is never known as a rapist. Daemon doesn't want to talk about it because he feels its shameful. Just because Dorne is more progressive doesn't mean its fully accepted. Otherwise Oberyn would parade around his male paramours like he does his female ones. 

The point I was raising here is to what degree is there a measurable difference between the life as a homosexual in Dorne in comparison to the rest of Seven Kingdoms. Apparently, both Hother Whoresbane Umber and Daemon Sand are ashamed of the intimate relations they may have had with other men.

If things were measurably better in Dorne then I really see little reason for Daemon to be ashamed of whatever he had with Oberyn. If the social standards are measurably different then homosexual couples would and should be treated differently, and that would certainly also reflect on the people growing up in such a society, causing them to have little to no issue with their own sexuality.

As for Oberyn never sexually abusing or raping anyone, I'd suggest you remember his treatment of Obara's mother. Sex work is rarely a profession the women and men there choose of their own free will, and Oberyn actually beat that woman up just to make a rather ugly point. Not sure Oberyn did have any male paramours as such. Ellaria is his only paramour, meaning the partner he actually lives with. They seem to have some sort of open relationship including other sex partners, etc. but I'm not sure we can count the various affairs Oberyn had since he is living with Ellaria as paramours. One-night-stands and short affairs do not qualify as such.

Daemon Sand was Oberyn's squire and as such not exactly in the position to reject Oberyn's advances. If I happened to have an affair with an 12-15-year-old pupil who lived at my home and was in my power 24/7 it would be pretty obviously sexual abuse (of children). If Daemon had been in love with Oberyn he would have as much reason to deny that as Loras has to deny his love for Renly - which the latter never does while Daemon actually does not suffer it that his (alleged) affair with Oberyn is mentioned in his hearing. In fact, it is not even clear that Daemon Sand actually was (particularly) interested in exploring the joys male-male sex.

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The point I was raising here is to what degree is there a measurable difference between the life as a homosexual in Dorne in comparison to the rest of Seven Kingdoms. Apparently, both Hother Whoresbane Umber and Daemon Sand are ashamed of the intimate relations they may have had with other men.

If things were measurably better in Dorne then I really see little reason for Daemon to be ashamed of whatever he had with Oberyn. If the social standards are measurably different then homosexual couples would and should be treated differently, and that would certainly also reflect on the people growing up in such a society, causing them to have little to no issue with their own sexuality.

As for Oberyn never sexually abusing or raping anyone, I'd suggest you remember his treatment of Obara's mother. Sex work is rarely a profession the women and men there choose of their own free will, and Oberyn actually beat that woman up just to make a rather ugly point. Not sure Oberyn did have any male paramours as such. Ellaria is his only paramour, meaning the partner he actually lives with. They seem to have some sort of open relationship including other sex partners, etc. but I'm not sure we can count the various affairs Oberyn had since he is living with Ellaria as paramours. One-night-stands and short affairs do not qualify as such.

Daemon Sand was Oberyn's squire and as such not exactly in the position to reject Oberyn's advances. If I happened to have an affair with an 12-15-year-old pupil who lived at my home and was in my power 24/7 it would be pretty obviously sexual abuse (of children). If Daemon had been in love with Oberyn he would have as much reason to deny that as Loras has to deny his love for Renly - which the latter never does while Daemon actually does not suffer it that his (alleged) affair with Oberyn is mentioned in his hearing. In fact, it is not even clear that Daemon Sand actually was (particularly) interested in exploring the joys male-male sex.

Uhhh beating someone is not sexual abuse. That's very different. 

Oberyn is bisexual, but that he sleeps with men is spoken of only in rumours. That means he takes effort to hide it, because its not fully accepted. 

And why would the relationship start that young? I don't think squires stay with their master for upto ten years, and Daemon was 23. Plenty of time for them to have a non predatory relationship. Also a squire is not a slave. Also I don't remember much from the books but maybe he doesn't want to talk about Oberyn because he feels bad Oberyn died. He brings Oberyn up on his own too IIRC 

Edited by Headfallsoff

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I imagine that Mace is pretty tolerant of any sexual relationship that will advance his family's power.  If Renly had come to power, then the whole of House Tyrell would have benefitted, as well as Loras specifically.  If Cersei took a fancy to Margaery, and he thought the interests of his House would be advanced by it, then he'd expect Margaery to reciprocate.

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On 4/30/2019 at 4:23 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Uhhh beating someone is not sexual abuse. That's very different. 

It is abuse, though, no?

And quite honestly, the way Oberyn Martell is depicted he is as likely to read a 'No' as 'Yes, oh, yes I want to have sex with' as the Sean Connery Bond was back in the 1960s. And in Oberyn's case this should and would apply to both women and men.

On 4/30/2019 at 4:23 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Oberyn is bisexual, but that he sleeps with men is spoken of only in rumours. That means he takes effort to hide it, because its not fully accepted. 

Well, then there is no measurable difference between Dorne and the other Seven Kingdoms, is there? After all, there seems virtually no difference between the way Hother Umber and Daemon Sand/Oberyn Martell deal with their homosexual sex/relationships. And it seems to me that Laenor Velaryon and Daeron Targaryen were much more open about their sex life than both Oberyn and Daemon.

On 4/30/2019 at 4:23 PM, Headfallsoff said:

And why would the relationship start that young? I don't think squires stay with their master for upto ten years, and Daemon was 23. Plenty of time for them to have a non predatory relationship. Also a squire is not a slave. Also I don't remember much from the books but maybe he doesn't want to talk about Oberyn because he feels bad Oberyn died. He brings Oberyn up on his own too IIRC 

It doesn't have to have started this early, of course, but it could have. We don't know. Squires aren't slaves but they are not free men, either. They are servants of their masters and totally dependent on them. And they can do nothing to stop the advances of their masters.

This is also a problem in the Loras-Renly relationship. Yes, Loras apparently was very much in love with Renly, but Dany loved Drogo, too. Just because you love somebody doesn't mean weren't abused or raped. Drogo did both sexually abuse and rape Dany multiple times. And there is a considerable age gap between Renly and Loras and their romantic/sexual relationship definitely must have started when Loras was 12-15 considering it was while Loras was still a squire at Storm's End and in AGoT he is already a knight and residing at Highgarden.

Perhaps Renly didn't actively push Loras in any way, shape, or form. But he was still an adult basically seducing a child/adolescent. This kind of thing would have worked much better as a proper romance if Renly and Loras had been both squires together - like Prince Daeron and Jeremy Norridge. And this is not just limited to homosexual relationships - Drogo is basically a child molester and there is also a considerable age gap between Rhaegar and Lyanna making this an abusive relationship as well, especially if it were to turn out that it started at Harrenhal in 181 AC when Lyanna was still only 13-14 years old.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It is abuse, though, no?

And quite honestly, the way Oberyn Martell is depicted he is as likely to read a 'No' as 'Yes, oh, yes I want to have sex with' as the Sean Connery Bond was back in the 1960s. And in Oberyn's case this should and would apply to both women and men.

Well, then there is no measurable difference between Dorne and the other Seven Kingdoms, is there? After all, there seems virtually no difference between the way Hother Umber and Daemon Sand/Oberyn Martell deal with their homosexual sex/relationships. And it seems to me that Laenor Velaryon and Daeron Targaryen were much more open about their sex life than both Oberyn and Daemon.

It doesn't have to have started this early, of course, but it could have. We don't know. Squires aren't slaves but they are not free men, either. They are servants of their masters and totally dependent on them. And they can do nothing to stop the advances of their masters.

This is also a problem in the Loras-Renly relationship. Yes, Loras apparently was very much in love with Renly, but Dany loved Drogo, too. Just because you love somebody doesn't mean weren't abused or raped. Drogo did both sexually abuse and rape Dany multiple times. And there is a considerable age gap between Renly and Loras and their romantic/sexual relationship definitely must have started when Loras was 12-15 considering it was while Loras was still a squire at Storm's End and in AGoT he is already a knight and residing at Highgarden.

Perhaps Renly didn't actively push Loras in any way, shape, or form. But he was still an adult basically seducing a child/adolescent. This kind of thing would have worked much better as a proper romance if Renly and Loras had been both squires together - like Prince Daeron and Jeremy Norridge. And this is not just limited to homosexual relationships - Drogo is basically a child molester and there is also a considerable age gap between Rhaegar and Lyanna making this an abusive relationship as well, especially if it were to turn out that it started at Harrenhal in 181 AC when Lyanna was still only 13-14 years old.

Wasn't it just a slap? I don't consider that abuse. Abuse is ongoing and systematic. 

Nothing in Oberyn's character reads as someone who wouldn't consider the consent of others. He is very respectful to his paramour and treats her well. 

There could be several reasons for Daemon's reticence to speak of Oberyn. Maybe he feels embarrassed to bring it up in front of Arianne since its her uncle. Or since he likes Arianne he doesn't want her to think he's in love with her uncle. Or he doesn't want to speak of the dead. Or maybe he doesn't like gossip. Or maybe its just a rumour and didn't really happen. Or it could have been just a fling unlike Oberyns's relationship with Ellaria, which was why they didn't showcase it much and why Daemon doesn't want to speak of it since he feels it's better to leave it in the past. 

Re: R/L, could have started after Loras was knighted. And the gap was 4 years, not so bad for those times. I agree it's better if Loras was not a squire though. 

Loras appeared to live in KL to me. He participated in Joffrey's Nameday before the series starts and he purchased his armour from Tobho Mott's. Loras and Renly were plotting to get Margaery married to Robert. Renly showed a portrait of Margaery to Ned. Loras must have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and to scope out the situation with Mace. Loras and Renly wouldn't  know there was going to be a Tourney so it doesn't work if Loras only came to KL for the Tourney of the Hand. It's more likely he went to Highgarden to advance their plotting and then back to KL. In any case, at no time does it actually say Loras lived at Highgarden. Please provide confirmation he lived in Highgarden if I am wrong. Loras is a third son and thus a free agent, he can do as he chooses. Plus it would make much more sense if he lived with Renly because his squiring to Renly was most probably a way for the Tyrells to get closer to the throne through the King's little brother, so his family would want him to stay close to Renly, and he could also be their ears and eyes in the capital and report back to them.

Edited by Headfallsoff

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