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James Steller

How much does Mace Tyrell know about Loras?

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1 hour ago, Headfallsoff said:

Wasn't it just a slap? I don't consider that abuse. Abuse is ongoing and systematic.

He slapped her to humiliate her in front of her mother and take away their child.

1 hour ago, Headfallsoff said:

Nothing in Oberyn's character reads as someone who wouldn't consider the consent of others. He is very respectful to his paramour and treats her well.

Pretty much everything in Oberyn's character suggests he does what he wants. He loves Ellaria, that's why he treats her the way he does. But there seem to be an awful lot of women (and some men, too) Oberyn merely desired and then discarded. After all, we don't see the mothers of the older Sand Snakes around, do we? Don't take me wrong, some of those women may have had as intimate a relationship with him as Ellaria did, but some others may have just been short affairs during which Oberyn exploited his sex partners. After all, Tyene's mother is a soiled septa, implying her affair with Oberyn may have destroyed her.

1 hour ago, Headfallsoff said:

There could be several reasons for Daemon's reticence to speak of Oberyn. Maybe he feels embarrassed to bring it up in front of Arianne since its her uncle. Or since he likes Arianne he doesn't want her to think he's in love with her uncle. Or he doesn't want to speak of the dead. Or maybe he doesn't like gossip. Or maybe its just a rumour and didn't really happen. Or it could have been just a fling unlike Oberyns's relationship with Ellaria, which was why they didn't showcase it much and why Daemon doesn't want to speak of it since he feels it's better to leave it in the past. 

Oberyn is not long dead when it is mentioned that Daemon does not like it when his alleged affair is mentioned in his hearing. While we learn that this is the case from Arianne's POV it sounds as if the author doesn't mean 'in Arianne's presence' but rather 'in general, whenever Daemon Sand might hear it'.

But my general point is not about the individual relationship here, it is about what Daemon's general behavior indicates - or seems to indicate - about Dornish tolerance of male homosexual relationships. With this only such relationship that has, at this point, been hinted at, we can't say we have at this point an example how such relationship are less taboo or less hushed-up than those in the rest of Westeros - especially since Prince Daeron apparently effectively married his partner Jeremy Norridge, something that has, as of yet, not been indicated for any Dornishman.

1 hour ago, Headfallsoff said:

Re: R/L, could have started after Loras was knighted. And the gap was 4 years, not so bad for those times. I agree it's better if Loras was not a squire though. 

It seems to me it must have started at Storm's End considering that seems to be where Loras was first shown pornographic literature (reference to Jaime) and it is where Loras and Renly had 'their secret place' where Loras personally buried Renly.

1 hour ago, Headfallsoff said:

Loras appeared to live in KL to me. He participated in Joffrey's Nameday before the series starts and he purchased his armour from Tobho Mott's. Loras and Renly were plotting to get Margaery married to Robert. Renly showed a portrait of Margaery to Ned. Loras must have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and to scope out the situation with Mace. Loras and Renly wouldn't  know there was going to be a Tourney so it doesn't work if Loras only came to KL for the Tourney of the Hand. It's more likely he went to Highgarden to advance their plotting and then back to KL. In any case, at no time does it actually say Loras lived at Highgarden. Please provide confirmation he lived in Highgarden if I am wrong. Loras is a third son and thus a free agent, he can do as he chooses. Plus it would make much more sense if he lived with Renly because his squiring to Renly was most probably a way for the Tyrells to get closer to the throne through the King's little brother, so his family would want him to stay close to Renly, and he could also be their ears and eyes in the capital and report back to them.

I think there is a chance that Loras often visited with Renly at court and he definitely stayed for an extended visit after he went there for the Tourney of the Hand. Tobho Mott is, perhaps, the greatest armorer in the Seven Kingdoms, so it is no surprise that a Tyrell would buy his weapons and armor from him.

Loras only turned sixteen rather recently, so prior to that he would have lived with his father after he had ended his time as squire with Lord Renly. Loras got knighted at the age of fifteen, just as Jaime was, which means this happened in 297 AC when he turned fifteen. The nameday tourney was likely his first big tourney at court as a knight.

Also, Renly seems to have been a rather recent addition to the Small Council implying that his predecessor as Master of Laws only recently died, resigned, or was dismissed. After all, most memories of Loras about Renly seem to take place at Storm's End, implying that Renly lived there for most in recent years. But once he got a seat on the council he would have likely not have the time to spend much time at home.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that the entire Margaery plot was Renly's brainchild, not Loras'. Loras is no schemer, but Renly resented and despised Cersei and her brood and wanted to destroy them.

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On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:46 PM, James Steller said:

I had a conversation with my brother recently which involved whether Mace Tyrell was a good dad or not, and it made me wonder if Mace has ever commented on Loras’s sexual orientation, positive or negative. I don’t have all of the books in my possession so I can’t double check each one. But based on ASOS, Garlan Tyrell is the only one who comes close to mentioning it, at Sansa’s wedding. I suppose it doesn’t matter by the time that Loras is in the Kingsguard, but from what I recall Mace is neutral towards Loras. 

Does that mean he’s ignorant of Loras’ orientation? It seems like common knowledge to anyone who knew Renly and Loras. Does Mace accept it or just ignore it? Have we gotten any hints either way?

The concept of "sexual orientation", as a sort of passive status, barely existed prior to about 1890, when sexologists began pioneering the idea of homosexuality as a disease.  If Mace Tyrell were typical of pre-modern types, he would be incapable of thinking about this issue in the terms you describe.

Society protected itself from disease, and from unwanted pregnancy, by trying to limit sexual activity to monogamous marriage.  Nobody was (seen as) "gay" or "straight" in the precise sense that moderns understand it.  Some people were sinners and others were habitual sinners, and some sins were regarded as more perverse than others.  One could avoid being a sinner by not sinning, whatever one's temptation might be.  There was nothing wrong with two men loving each other, as long as they committed no sins.   There was nothing wrong with a man not being fond of women, as long as he committed no sins.  If anything, his aversion to women might make him less likely to sin than more likely.

If you were  to ask a pre-modern father if he were aware of his son's "sexual orientation", he would likely demand to know what precisely you meant by that.  When it began to sink in what you were hinting at, he would likely understand that you were accusing his son, not of some passive "orientation", but rather of a specific acts of sodomy.  If you tried to clarify that you were not talking about a single specific act, he would likely understand that you were accusing his son of multiple and habitual acts of sodomy.  He would then demand to know what evidence you had that his son had ever engaged in such an act even once.  You would likely then find yourself in an awkward position, and without evidence.  

GRRM's writing is somewhat true to this, in that he never has character speak of homosexuality in modern terms using modern language.  However, he seems to have a "nudge-nudge-wink-wink" approach, which assumes that a narrow group of cognoscenti understand homosexuality in exactly the same way that modern people do, while everyone else is naïve.  But is Mace Tyrell one of the crypto-modern cognoscenti?  Or one of the naifs?  That's anyone's guess.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/2/2019 at 1:45 AM, Lord Varys said:

He slapped her to humiliate her in front of her mother and take away their child.

Pretty much everything in Oberyn's character suggests he does what he wants. He loves Ellaria, that's why he treats her the way he does. But there seem to be an awful lot of women (and some men, too) Oberyn merely desired and then discarded. After all, we don't see the mothers of the older Sand Snakes around, do we? Don't take me wrong, some of those women may have had as intimate a relationship with him as Ellaria did, but some others may have just been short affairs during which Oberyn exploited his sex partners. After all, Tyene's mother is a soiled septa, implying her affair with Oberyn may have destroyed her.

Oberyn is not long dead when it is mentioned that Daemon does not like it when his alleged affair is mentioned in his hearing. While we learn that this is the case from Arianne's POV it sounds as if the author doesn't mean 'in Arianne's presence' but rather 'in general, whenever Daemon Sand might hear it'.

But my general point is not about the individual relationship here, it is about what Daemon's general behavior indicates - or seems to indicate - about Dornish tolerance of male homosexual relationships. With this only such relationship that has, at this point, been hinted at, we can't say we have at this point an example how such relationship are less taboo or less hushed-up than those in the rest of Westeros - especially since Prince Daeron apparently effectively married his partner Jeremy Norridge, something that has, as of yet, not been indicated for any Dornishman.

It seems to me it must have started at Storm's End considering that seems to be where Loras was first shown pornographic literature (reference to Jaime) and it is where Loras and Renly had 'their secret place' where Loras personally buried Renly.

I think there is a chance that Loras often visited with Renly at court and he definitely stayed for an extended visit after he went there for the Tourney of the Hand. Tobho Mott is, perhaps, the greatest armorer in the Seven Kingdoms, so it is no surprise that a Tyrell would buy his weapons and armor from him.

Loras only turned sixteen rather recently, so prior to that he would have lived with his father after he had ended his time as squire with Lord Renly. Loras got knighted at the age of fifteen, just as Jaime was, which means this happened in 297 AC when he turned fifteen. The nameday tourney was likely his first big tourney at court as a knight.

Also, Renly seems to have been a rather recent addition to the Small Council implying that his predecessor as Master of Laws only recently died, resigned, or was dismissed. After all, most memories of Loras about Renly seem to take place at Storm's End, implying that Renly lived there for most in recent years. But once he got a seat on the council he would have likely not have the time to spend much time at home.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that the entire Margaery plot was Renly's brainchild, not Loras'. Loras is no schemer, but Renly resented and despised Cersei and her brood and wanted to destroy them.

You may have a point there about Oberyn, I forgot about Tyene's mother, but that doesn't suggest to me that he exploited her and discarded her as in he took what he wanted from her and she didn't want it herself, but rather that he seduced her. 

He seems to take great pride in his sexual conquests, so seducing a septa would be a feather in his cap for him. I think forcing himself on his squire who is in no way attracted to him would be very OOC. 

Though it is possible, there are still a  ton of reasons Daemon might not like being reminded of the relationship, there's no need to immediately jump to sexual assault. And Oberyn and Daemon were likely not in love unlike the Prince and Jeremy, there's no reason to go around walking hand in hand especially since Oberyn would likely be with Ellaria then. 

Re: the pornography, Loras says Renly "owned a few [books] that would make a septon blind". It's never said that Renly showed him any and where he showed him, if he did show him. I also don't think this hinted at any sexual relationship, but at Renly's sexual orientation and his lackadaisal nature.

As for the place Renly showed him once, it could be a place where they hung out with nothing sexual involved.

It's also not known if Tobho Mott is the greatest armourer in Westeros. Mott says that he is the only armourer who can apply colour to armour without using paint "in King's Landing", meaning others outside KL know how to do the method as well. The Reach is the homeland of chivalry, where the culture of knighthood is strongest, so it wouldn't be far fetched to think that there are armourers with Mott's skill lying around. Loras would also need to take multiple visits to Mott, first to describe the armour, then to pick it up, which would take some time. 

Maybe Mace wanted Loras to stay at home because he wasn't yet the age of majority, but since he was knighted, had just ended his fostering, and was just one year way from 16, its more probable Loras did as he wanted. 

Stupidly, Jon argued. "I'll be fifteen on my name day," he said. "Almost a man grown." 

Benjen Stark frowned. "A boy you are, and a boy you'll remain until Ser Alliser says you are fit to be a man of the Night's Watch."

-AGOT, Jon III

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night's Watch, not the boy who'd once sat at Old Nan's feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

-AGOT, Jon VII

Benjen and Jon feel Jon is a man grown even though he's 15, because joining the Night's Watch is seen as a sign of maturity, Mace and Loras could feel the same about Loras' knighthood.

Loras' job as a third son is to be a great Knight and to bring prestige to his family, something which can be accomplished by competing at any tourneys taking place, like how he competed at Joffrey's Nameday tourney. Being at the capital would bring him the most exposure and fame. Loras is also very known for his headstrong and brash nature, so he would argue that he should stay with Renly, and with him being Mace's favorite son, Mace would probably relent.

Re: Renly being a recent addition, to me it seems like he'd been at his post for at least some time considering that he can crack jokes about Robert never attending council meetings and his rapport with Littlefinger, and Cersei bitterly remembering "Renly's mockery". 

The only actual memory Loras references of Renly at Storm's End is him showing him the special place, which is insubstantial in and of itself. So it's still very possible they waited after Loras was knighted, if someone wants to see it that way. 

Another thing that makes me think Loras lived in court is that Varys, Littlefinger, Oberyn, Cersei, Jaime, Stannis, and Gregor and his goons all appear to know about the relationship. This suggests to me that it was a source of gossip at the capital. The others can be explained away with spies, but Jaime or Gregor and his henchmen  wouldn't have any, if Loras had lived at the capital this could be why their relationship was so well known.

Re: the Tyrell plot being a brainchild of Renly's, I agree, but I meant that Loras would be in the capital anyway because of the plot and not the Tourney. Also it doesn't appear to me that Renly "despised" Cersei as such, but recognized that she's an enemy power in court and wanted to replace her with his allies. Also note the Margaery plot also benefits the Tyrells much more than Renly, so he was probably working in both their interests here.

Edited by Headfallsoff

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On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

You may have a point there about Oberyn, I forgot about Tyene's mother, but that doesn't suggest to me that he exploited her and discarded her as in he took what he wanted from her and she didn't want it herself, but rather that he seduced her. 

He seems to take great pride in his sexual conquests, so seducing a septa would be a feather in his cap for him. I think forcing himself on his squire who is in no way attracted to him would be very OOC. 

Oberyn also likely used a poisoned blade to kill a great lord of Dorne in duel which was only to go until first blood because of Oberyn's youth. The man is fun, but he has a petty and very ugly streak to him.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Though it is possible, there are still a  ton of reasons Daemon might not like being reminded of the relationship, there's no need to immediately jump to sexual assault. And Oberyn and Daemon were likely not in love unlike the Prince and Jeremy, there's no reason to go around walking hand in hand especially since Oberyn would likely be with Ellaria then. 

I never said it was sexual assault or a brutal rape, I merely pointed out that Daemon may not have been that much into men or Oberyn but basically felt pressured by his advances and eventually gave in.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Re: the pornography, Loras says Renly "owned a few [books] that would make a septon blind". It's never said that Renly showed him any and where he showed him, if he did show him. I also don't think this hinted at any sexual relationship, but at Renly's sexual orientation and his lackadaisal nature.

As for the place Renly showed him once, it could be a place where they hung out with nothing sexual involved.

The fact that the secret place was at Storm's End is a strong sign that Renly and Loras started whatever relationship they had at Storm's End. And Loras was only fifteen when Renly made him a knight, meaning that said relationship could have started when Loras was fourteen, thirteen, or possibly only twelve.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

It's also not known if Tobho Mott is the greatest armourer in Westeros. Mott says that he is the only armourer who can apply colour to armour without using paint "in King's Landing", meaning others outside KL know how to do the method as well. The Reach is the homeland of chivalry, where the culture of knighthood is strongest, so it wouldn't be far fetched to think that there are armourers with Mott's skill lying around. Loras would also need to take multiple visits to Mott, first to describe the armour, then to pick it up, which would take some time. 

Tobho Mott is one of, I think, three armorers in Westeros that can reforge Valyrian steel - a technique he learned in his youth in Qohor. Mott isn't the kind of armorer you would meet anywhere else in Westeros. Perhaps there is another such armorer in Oldtown and perhaps one at Lannisport, but that should be it. Mott is also known for his very elaborate products, counting Renly and other great courtiers among his customers. It seems very fitting that Loras Tyrell chose him precisely because he was one of the few armorers who could make him the intricately crafted armor he later wears.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Maybe Mace wanted Loras to stay at home because he wasn't yet the age of majority, but since he was knighted, had just ended his fostering, and was just one year way from 16, its more probable Loras did as he wanted. 

But we know Loras was Mace Tyrell's favorite son. If he had lived with Renly at court he should have been there when Ned came. Also note that Loras actually wrote his father urging him to send Margaery to court to eventually become Robert's queen. This implies this was a scheme they hatched at court, not while Loras was back at Highgarden. If the latter was the case Margaery and possibly Mace and Garlan, etc. would also have come to KL for the tourney, no?

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Re: Renly being a recent addition, to me it seems like he'd been at his post for at least some time considering that he can crack jokes about Robert never attending council meetings and his rapport with Littlefinger, and Cersei bitterly remembering "Renly's mockery". 

Oh, we can be sure Renly was often at court even before he joined the Small Council. He is the king's brother, after all. But as Master of Laws Renly would have likely not have the time to make extended visits to Storm's End.

On 5/3/2019 at 6:27 PM, Headfallsoff said:

Re: the Tyrell plot being a brainchild of Renly's, I agree, but I meant that Loras would be in the capital anyway because of the plot and not the Tourney. Also it doesn't appear to me that Renly "despised" Cersei as such, but recognized that she's an enemy power in court and wanted to replace her with his allies. Also note the Margaery plot also benefits the Tyrells much more than Renly, so he was probably working in both their interests here.

Renly mocks his nephew openly after the Mycah affair. A man who liked his nephew and sister-in-law wouldn't do that.

As Robert's youngest brother Renly could easily enough have been Cersei's friend and Joff's supporter against Stannis. That this didn't happen strongly suggests that Cersei correctly figured out that Renly was after the crown himself.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Oberyn also likely used a poisoned blade to kill a great lord of Dorne in duel which was only to go until first blood because of Oberyn's youth. The man is fun, but he has a petty and very ugly streak to him.

I never said it was sexual assault or a brutal rape, I merely pointed out that Daemon may not have been that much into men or Oberyn but basically felt pressured by his advances and eventually gave in.

The fact that the secret place was at Storm's End is a strong sign that Renly and Loras started whatever relationship they had at Storm's End. And Loras was only fifteen when Renly made him a knight, meaning that said relationship could have started when Loras was fourteen, thirteen, or possibly only twelve.

Tobho Mott is one of, I think, three armorers in Westeros that can reforge Valyrian steel - a technique he learned in his youth in Qohor. Mott isn't the kind of armorer you would meet anywhere else in Westeros. Perhaps there is another such armorer in Oldtown and perhaps one at Lannisport, but that should be it. Mott is also known for his very elaborate products, counting Renly and other great courtiers among his customers. It seems very fitting that Loras Tyrell chose him precisely because he was one of the few armorers who could make him the intricately crafted armor he later wears.

But we know Loras was Mace Tyrell's favorite son. If he had lived with Renly at court he should have been there when Ned came. Also note that Loras actually wrote his father urging him to send Margaery to court to eventually become Robert's queen. This implies this was a scheme they hatched at court, not while Loras was back at Highgarden. If the latter was the case Margaery and possibly Mace and Garlan, etc. would also have come to KL for the tourney, no?

Oh, we can be sure Renly was often at court even before he joined the Small Council. He is the king's brother, after all. But as Master of Laws Renly would have likely not have the time to make extended visits to Storm's End.

Renly mocks his nephew openly after the Mycah affair. A man who liked his nephew and sister-in-law wouldn't do that.

As Robert's youngest brother Renly could easily enough have been Cersei's friend and Joff's supporter against Stannis. That this didn't happen strongly suggests that Cersei correctly figured out that Renly was after the crown himself.

So? Liking fighting doesn't mean you like to abuse squires. 

And there is zero indication of that. 

No it doesn't, the special  place doesn't have to denote anything sexual. If Loras had said "Renly showed me a place where he'd pull his pants down and make me suck his cock" you'd be right but he doesn't so its left ambiguous. 

Exactly, there could be other armourers with his skill elsewhere. 

No, I don't agree. As said, Loras could have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and convince Mace. Or maybe he just wasn't in court when Ned came and was off training or something. (he wasn't a Kingsguard or a member of the Council so he doesn't have an actual reason to be in the castle). If the plan was hatched in KL, why would Renly just have a portrait of Margaery on his person? Maybe he just loves Loras and wants to be reminded of Loras by looking at the portrait, since they look like twins - but it's far more plausible he had it on hand for the scheme. The portrait of Margaery that was comissioned was a recent portrait. That means Margaery had to sit down for it. This  means Margaery and her family already knew about the plan when the portrait was painted, because she would need to be told the reason for the portrait - and why would Renly make an excuse and lie about why he needed it? He would know he fully needs Mace's cooperation to get Margaery out of Highgarden. Also, this plan was dangerous. Renly was very transparent in his efforts to get Robert to notice Margaery. Pycelle knew, so presumably Cersei did too - and as Renly said "Lannisters have no mercy" and would not hesitate to get rid of him. Why would Renly put his life in danger and put in a whole lot of effort, for a plan that Mace Tyrell might not even agree to? Mace Tyrell would have to know beforehand. Renly also likely waited until Ned and his other allies were in the capital for the Tourney so he would have support. The "100 swords" Renly mentions to Ned must have been the men he was planning to use in his repudiation of Cersei.

Garlan was not present throughout the whole of AGOT, and there's even a possibility he wasn't a solidified character then. Mace would have taken care of matters in Highgarden, like preparing an entourage for his daughter. He'd be waiting for when the time was ripe to move to KL - hence the letter Loras wrote to him. If GRRM had even remembered Garlan, Garlan could have been part of that entourage, or he simply didn't want to take part in his family's plotting. 

How many joy visits can the Lord of Storm's End make? It makes more sense if Loras was at the capital with Renly. 

Renly mocks everyone. He mocks Littlefinger, he mocks Ilyn Payne, he mocks Barristan Selmy, he mocks Brienne. I don't think he particularly hated any of them. 

Renly also had a very desirable seat of power - Storm's End, which could have gone to Tommen. I doubt being Cersei's friend would stop her from wanting it for her son. He's also a danger to her kid's inheritance as the King's brother, he couldn't suck up to her as he's not a harmless lord like Littlefinger. 

Edited by Headfallsoff

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I imagine that he would not be shocked. While I do not imagine he was fond of it, I can see him using his third son as a chess piece with a Lord Paramount/Small Council Member/King's brother. 

 

BTW there is no canon proof that this was an abusive relationship. Overspeculation is overspeculation.

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On ‎1‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 5:46 PM, James Steller said:

I had a conversation with my brother recently which involved whether Mace Tyrell was a good dad or not, and it made me wonder if Mace has ever commented on Loras’s sexual orientation, positive or negative. I don’t have all of the books in my possession so I can’t double check each one. But based on ASOS, Garlan Tyrell is the only one who comes close to mentioning it, at Sansa’s wedding. I suppose it doesn’t matter by the time that Loras is in the Kingsguard, but from what I recall Mace is neutral towards Loras. 

Does that mean he’s ignorant of Loras’ orientation? It seems like common knowledge to anyone who knew Renly and Loras. Does Mace accept it or just ignore it? Have we gotten any hints either way?

He knew nothing ,and if anybody would have told him .Mace would not believe it .

LONG LIVE THE KING OF DENIAL .

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1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

I imagine that he would not be shocked. While I do not imagine he was fond of it, I can see him using his third son as a chess piece with a Lord Paramount/Small Council Member/King's brother. 

Considering that a gay Targaryen prince once squired at Highgarden and met his future 'husband' there, I honestly doubt that the Tyrells had no experience with that kind of thing. Especially since said gay Targaryen prince was once betrothed to Olenna Redwyne.

1 hour ago, nyser1 said:

BTW there is no canon proof that this was an abusive relationship. Overspeculation is overspeculation.

In our modern world we would treat any romantic/sexual relationship that grew out of the kind of a squire-knight relationship (which is loosely equivalent to a master-servant, employer-employee, or teacher-student relationship - especially in those cases where the squire happens to be a young boy when he is handed over to the knight) as suspect and potentially abusive. There is, I think, good reason why grown-up teachers/employers are not allowed enter into - and will actually be punished if they start - a relationship with an underage student/employee. We would also say that relationships between employer-employee and teacher-student that only began after the study time/work relationship ended are, by default, not suspect. After all, the older party could have groomed the younger one to eventually become his/her lover without actually making a move before the appropriate time has come.

George depicted a completely abusive and one-sided romantic/sexual relationship in the marriage of Drogo and Daenerys and gave it a positive spin. The fact that Dany ended up falling in love with Drogo - which may actually have been her starting from Stockholm syndrome - doesn't erase the fact that Drogo is a child molester and rapist.

I never said Renly did the same with Loras. It is also clear that the age gap between Dany-Drogo is far higher than between Loras-Renly, but there is still a significant age gap there, and Renly was already a man grown and a knight when he took on Loras as a squire, not to mention that he most likely was already a sexually active and experienced man, quite aware how to entice or seduce other people.

It might still be that all that didn't figure into the development of the relationship to a high degree, but the way George has set up those two characters we cannot rule out that it did.

It is the same with Rhaegar-Lyanna, by the way. Lyanna was a 13-14-year-old girl at Harrenhal, whereas Rhaegar was a 22-year-old married man and father. It could be that Rhaegar's sexual experience and physical and emotional maturity didn't figure all that much into that relationship. But we cannot say that this was a relationship among equals. Lyanna was still half a child and Rhaegar a man.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

So? Liking fighting doesn't mean you like to abuse squires.

Well, if you don't see how a man like Oberyn Martell would take what's offered without asking twice I can't help you. His characterization doesn't imply to me he is the kind of guy who doesn't do what he wants. His entire arc in ASoS as well as everything we learned of him later implies that he does. There is no indication here that he cares much about honoring women - if he did, he would have actually married Ellaria Sand, thus giving his children by her the name Martell rather than Sand.

The fact that the Dornish also brand their bastards with those condemning names also implies that Dorne is not that different. In fact, it seems that Oberyn could, as a Prince of Dorne, not possibly marry a bastard. After all, Arianne Martell also makes it clear that she could never marry Daemon Sand because he is born a bastard.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

No it doesn't, the special  place doesn't have to denote anything sexual. If Loras had said "Renly showed me a place where he'd pull his pants down and make me suck his cock" you'd be right but he doesn't so its left ambiguous.

Well, I interpret the special place as a place that was important for Renly and Loras the couple, not Renly and Loras the mundane friends. This is an interpretation, but one that has merit, I'd think. After all, if nothing had happened while they were at that special place why on earth should Loras want to bury Renly there rather than at a place that had more meaning to their eventual sexual/romantic relationship?

Because it is quite clear that they do have sex and are essentially a couple by the time of AGoT and, especially, ACoK.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

Exactly, there could be other armourers with his skill elsewhere.

Doesn't seem likely that any of those places would have made sense if the first tourney you want to use your new armor and introduce yourself to the world as 'the Knight of Flowers' takes place at KL, no?

Or would you travel to Oldtown or Lannisport from Storm's End or Highgarden to buy new armor you want to show off at KL if you can also buy it at KL?

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

No, I don't agree. As said, Loras could have gone to Highgarden to get the portrait and convince Mace. Or maybe he just wasn't in court when Ned came and was off training or something. (he wasn't a Kingsguard or a member of the Council so he doesn't have an actual reason to be in the castle).

Loras came to court especially for the tourney. Nothing else is indicated.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

If the plan was hatched in KL, why would Renly just have a portrait of Margaery on his person? Maybe he just loves Loras and wants to be reminded of Loras by looking at the portrait, since they look like twins - but it's far more plausible he had it on hand for the scheme. The portrait of Margaery that was comissioned was a recent portrait. That means Margaery had to sit down for it. This  means Margaery and her family already knew about the plan when the portrait was painted, because she would need to be told the reason for the portrait - and why would Renly make an excuse and lie about why he needed it?

There is no claim that Margaery's portrait was a recently made, is there? As Loras' partner/lover Renly should have had access to such a portrait without already having a plot in mind. But we actually don't know how recent Renly's plan to replace Cersei with Margaery was. Cersei fears something like that early on in AGot, during her conversation with Jaime in Winterfell.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

He would know he fully needs Mace's cooperation to get Margaery out of Highgarden. Also, this plan was dangerous. Renly was very transparent in his efforts to get Robert to notice Margaery. Pycelle knew, so presumably Cersei did too - and as Renly said "Lannisters have no mercy" and would not hesitate to get rid of him. Why would Renly put his life in danger and put in a whole lot of effort, for a plan that Mace Tyrell might not even agree to? Mace Tyrell would have to know beforehand. Renly also likely waited until Ned and his other allies were in the capital for the Tourney so he would have support. The "100 swords" Renly mentions to Ned must have been the men he was planning to use in his repudiation of Cersei.

Loras is Mace's favorite son, and he was writing letters to his father to send Margaery to court. It is also quite clear that Mace was all in favor of making his daughter the new queen. So there was no need of persuasion here.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

How many joy visits can the Lord of Storm's End make? It makes more sense if Loras was at the capital with Renly. 

As many visits as he would like. He is a lord and the king's brother, he can leave all his duties and responsibilities to servants. It is different, though, with a seat on the Small Council. Stannis' long absence is a very odd and unusual thing, not likely something that happens all that often.

3 hours ago, Headfallsoff said:

Renly also had a very desirable seat of power - Storm's End, which could have gone to Tommen. I doubt being Cersei's friend would stop her from wanting it for her son. He's also a danger to her kid's inheritance as the King's brother, he couldn't suck up to her as he's not a harmless lord like Littlefinger. 

Sure, Cersei had her own reasons to loath Robert's brothers. But Renly's poisonous and presumptuous ambition can be seen in his mad idea that he thought he should be king despite the fact that he was the youngest Baratheon brother. A good man and dutiful younger brother would either have stood at Stannis' side - if he believed the incest story - or at Joffrey's side - because he believed his brother's eldest son should succeed him.

If Renly had offered all the power of Storm's End to Cersei to crush both the Starks and Stannis then Cersei and the Lannisters would have gladly accepted that. They could have even bound Renly closer to them by offering him Myrcella's hand.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, if you don't see how a man like Oberyn Martell would take what's offered without asking twice I can't help you. His characterization doesn't imply to me he is the kind of guy who doesn't do what he wants. His entire arc in ASoS as well as everything we learned of him later implies that he does. There is no indication here that he cares much about honoring women - if he did, he would have actually married Ellaria Sand, thus giving his children by her the name Martell rather than Sand.

The fact that the Dornish also brand their bastards with those condemning names also implies that Dorne is not that different. In fact, it seems that Oberyn could, as a Prince of Dorne, not possibly marry a bastard. After all, Arianne Martell also makes it clear that she could never marry Daemon Sand because he is born a bastard.

Well, I interpret the special place as a place that was important for Renly and Loras the couple, not Renly and Loras the mundane friends. This is an interpretation, but one that has merit, I'd think. After all, if nothing had happened while they were at that special place why on earth should Loras want to bury Renly there rather than at a place that had more meaning to their eventual sexual/romantic relationship?

Because it is quite clear that they do have sex and are essentially a couple by the time of AGoT and, especially, ACoK.

Doesn't seem likely that any of those places would have made sense if the first tourney you want to use your new armor and introduce yourself to the world as 'the Knight of Flowers' takes place at KL, no?

Or would you travel to Oldtown or Lannisport from Storm's End or Highgarden to buy new armor you want to show off at KL if you can also buy it at KL?

Loras came to court especially for the tourney. Nothing else is indicated.

There is no claim that Margaery's portrait was a recently made, is there? As Loras' partner/lover Renly should have had access to such a portrait without already having a plot in mind. But we actually don't know how recent Renly's plan to replace Cersei with Margaery was. Cersei fears something like that early on in AGot, during her conversation with Jaime in Winterfell.

Loras is Mace's favorite son, and he was writing letters to his father to send Margaery to court. It is also quite clear that Mace was all in favor of making his daughter the new queen. So there was no need of persuasion here.

As many visits as he would like. He is a lord and the king's brother, he can leave all his duties and responsibilities to servants. It is different, though, with a seat on the Small Council. Stannis' long absence is a very odd and unusual thing, not likely something that happens all that often.

Sure, Cersei had her own reasons to loath Robert's brothers. But Renly's poisonous and presumptuous ambition can be seen in his mad idea that he thought he should be king despite the fact that he was the youngest Baratheon brother. A good man and dutiful younger brother would either have stood at Stannis' side - if he believed the incest story - or at Joffrey's side - because he believed his brother's eldest son should succeed him.

If Renly had offered all the power of Storm's End to Cersei to crush both the Starks and Stannis then Cersei and the Lannisters would have gladly accepted that. They could have even bound Renly closer to them by offering him Myrcella's hand.

He's not a man who would force himself on people not attracted to him. He takes pride in his attractiveness and how he can seduce people, he's not a rapist. 

And not marrying Ellaria has nothing to do with any of this, how do you even go there? 

Easy, it was a place which to Loras showed Renly trusted him and that he was his closest companion. Maybe it was a grove full of beautiful trees, or a cave, or something, some place he had never shown anyone else, and was therefore special to the two of them. 

No, that's just a hypothesis, which is just as valid as the hypothesis that he did indeed live there. Loras would have come  to KL to carry out the scheme under the guise of entering in the Tourney, because the scheme had already been set in place before the Tourney. And if he was in Kings Landing the whole time, Ned not meeting him means nothing, Ned only met the Council members and the King's guard. Loras is neither. He does see him later, when he holds court as Hand of the King.  

If Loras lived in Highgarden, he could buy armour from OldTown and participate in the tourneys in the Reach. I'm assuming the armour Mott was talking about was the sapphire armour, since it was so beautiful and intricate. Which would mean it was made prior to the Tourney.... And the process of making the armour would take some time (googled it and it's said specialized armour would take months) which means Loras would be in KL prior to the creation of the armour (since he would need to describe it and etc), so several months before the Tourney, which would be more logical if Loras lived in KL. Loras would be considered a man grown in Westeros, he can reside where he wants.

You're right, there is no indication. But it was probably recent, because Margaery was 14 in AGOT, if she was 12 at the time of the portrait she would be too young to attract Robert's attention. And it could be that she got the portrait painted on a whim, but the likelier version is that Renly and Loras had it painted for the scheme. 

Aha, there, exactly, Cersei already had fears of getting set aside before we even meet Renly. This means this plan was hatched before the Tourney. 

There is simply no reason for Renly to have a locket which has a picture of Margaery with no cause or explanation. Renly showed the locket to Ned only when people were already arriving to the capital, which does support my headcanon that Loras gave it to him on his arrival. The Tourney was announced as soon as Ned reached KL, which means if Renly wrote to Loras asking him to come (since Ned would be in the capital and they could move against Cersei, as it would be dangerous to move alone) his arrival there would coincide with the others who came for the Tourney (travel time from King's Landing to Highgarden takes about 1 month according to an accurate looking Timeline) which means it isn't necessary that Loras went to KL for the Tourney, but rather to move the plan forward. 

He wrote one letter. As said, this is a highly dangerous plan, especially for Margaery. What if Robert sleeps with Margaery, but then doesn't fall in love? What if Cersei nabs Margaery with a bunch of bandits? What if Robert hurts Margaery during sex? What if Robert gets Margaery pregnant but then just discards her? She'd be ruined. Etc etc Mace would never agree to this on the basis of a single letter. They'd have to hash it out beforehand. 

He wouldn't be a very good Lord then, and if he spent half his time as Lord of Storm's End making visits to KL, he would hardly get the support he got in canon. 

"Poisonous and mad" OK, you clearly don't have a bias against this character at all. Renly had the most political backing and was moving against the Lannisters, no one knew what Stannis was doing and it wasn't clear what he would do, so it was upto Renly. 

Its of my opinion that Renly knew the Lannister kids were not Cersei's. Whether he knew they were incest born or not is debatable, but it would make sense on why he was moving against them, instead of some "deep hatred" which we never see. He had Edric Storm in his castle, and plenty of time to observe Cersei and Robert's (really bad) relationship. And no one can be friends with Cersei for long, and Tywin and Cersei were planning to get rid of him the whole time, along with Stannis. [EDIT: Myrcella is Renly's "niece", and the High Septon protested against Maegor's marriage to Rhaena, which seems to indicate such incestuous marriages are frowned upon by the Faith.] 

Edited by Headfallsoff

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Points:

-If this plan had been thought up by Renly alone without prior communication with Highgarden what he basically would have been doing was put himself in danger and then write to Mace out of nowhere to tell him he needed his daughter for an extremely dangerous plan and hoped he agreed to it. That would be extremely stupid of him.

-If Renly was depending on the Tourney for Loras' arrival, he would have been bothered when Ned announced he was going to cancel it. Instead he's not, because Loras was coming anyway, to carry out the scheme. 

-Loras had come to KL with his personal guard, who are amongst the swords Renly offers to Ned in his coup. Now there must have been about 20, since Renly had 30, when they left they had 50 retainers, and when he adds the other allies in King's Landing to his personal retinue Renly says he has a 100 swords. That's a bit much for a third son, even Tyrion had just 2 retainers so Loras had gone to the capital with the thought that it would be dangerous in mind. 

 

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Children do what they want.  How many teenagers get pregnant in the back of Fords every year.  Mace can't do anything about it any more than the parents of the teens.  He ignored it and hoped it's a passing phase.

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Posted (edited)

Lol what.... Renly was an adult seducing a child? He's only 3-4 years older than Loras, that's basically a high school freshman and senior. That was the norm where I grew up, and especially for gay men, where age gaps are more common due to circumstances, I don't see the big deal. I hate this demonization of Renly. 

Edited by R2D

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Posted (edited)

Do we actualy even know 100% that he is gay? Maybe he is bisexual. What I want to point out is that we don't know if he would stil fall in love with a woman. Love is a strange thing and we humans tent to love human personalities and not just the bodies. Before the Church humans in many cultures were heterosexual and yet they still had relationships with other males (and females but more rarely since women didn't have the same freedom). Today the most common scientific belief is that eventhough humans have a biological preference they can still love someone of the same sex and that most of our relationships (friendly and erotic) are based in similar fountation. 

Edited by Dreadscythe95

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Loras lived at court with Renly, it is known.

Quote

"I am of the king's council, yet not the king's blood, so I would make a poor hostage. I knew Ser Loras passing well when he was here at court, and gave him no cause to mislike me. Mace Tyrell bears me no enmity that I know of, and I flatter myself that I am not unskilled in negotiation." (ACOK, Tyrion VIII)

[Passing 

  adj  

 Archaic

to an extreme degree  
the events were passing strange]

Why would Littlefinger know Loras extremely well if he only came for tourneys? This means Loras was at court.

Edited by S. D

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On 5/31/2019 at 4:58 PM, Dreadscythe95 said:

Do we actualy even know 100% that he is gay? Maybe he is bisexual. What I want to point out is that we don't know if he would stil fall in love with a woman. Love is a strange thing and we humans tent to love human personalities and not just the bodies. Before the Church humans in many cultures were heterosexual and yet they still had relationships with other males (and females but more rarely since women didn't have the same freedom). Today the most common scientific belief is that eventhough humans have a biological preference they can still love someone of the same sex and that most of our relationships (friendly and erotic) are based in similar fountation. 

He's gay, as far as I know.

Quote

Ser Garlan turned her, drew her close to his side. "My lady, I have seen how you look at my brother. Loras is valiant and handsome, and we all love him dearly . . . but your Imp will make a better husband. He is a bigger man than he seems, I think." (ASOS, Sansa III)

Quote

"Mace Tyrell actually thought it was his own idea to make Ser Loras's inclusion in the Kingsguard part of the marriage contract. Who better to protect his daughter than her splendid knightly brother? And it relieved him of the difficult task of trying to find lands and a bride for a third son, never easy, and doubly difficult in Ser Loras's case." (ASOS, Sansa VI)

 

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